....and does Marciano beat them ALL?
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....and does Marciano beat them ALL?
Aint many to choose from mate to be honest
just watched round 6 of Marciano's last fight, 9-21-1955. Rocky threw 123 punches in that round, 117 were power punches and only 6 jabs! :o
He connected on 51 of the 123 punches, and scored 2 knockdowns of Archie Moore. It is an amazing round. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BzmlT...eature=related
This will show rds 5,6, and 7. Going into the 6th round Moore was ahead 48-46 on my 10-point must scoring, and had sliced Rocky's nose badly giving him breathing trouble, cut him under the left eye, and had swollen-up Rocky's left eye pretty well.
....and Moore was only about 40 and had only had 175 fights and 20 losses by then ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by brocktonblockbust
Well I think Bob Foster deserves a shout out in this group...he fought at 175 and at heavyweight. I also think a Marciano-Foster match up would have been pretty epic, hypothetically speaking of course...I think Foster's chin fails before Rocky's though.
Michael Spinks ???
Roy Jones maybe ??? ???
Kind of a wired weight ay? Erm,Enzo Maccarinelli?! ;D
I take it you mean light heavyweight?Quote:
Originally Posted by brocktonblockbust
Charles
Jones
Moore
Spinks
Tunney
Conn
Bivins
Loughran
Muhammed
Foster
You?
Michael Spinks was a beast at Light Heavyweight, he went toe to toe with Yaqui Lopez and won a war. Also his KO over Marvin Johnson was excellent, Michael Spinks has got to be one of the most underrated fighters because he got blew away by Mike Tyson.
Also Qawi, Muhammad, two of the most action packed Light Heavyweight's. Great fighters and they produced some classic fights.
You don't get Light Heavyweight's like those anymore.
As for the topic yes i believe there's quite a few, who could easily challenge Rocky Marciano and win.
Some fighters who would have a good chance at there best, between Light Heavyweight and Cruiserweight.
Dwight Muhammad Qawi
Michael Spinks
Ezzard Charles
Archie Moore
Evander Holyfield
Floyd Patterson
Bob Foster
Roy Jones Jr
Billy Conn
Michael Moorer
Marciano beat Moore, Charles. Qawi wouldn't have had a prayer, unless you think a mediocre fighter, at best, is going to stand in a slug with one of the top heavyweights. Holyfield at cruiser wouldn't beat Marciano; Conn fought Louis at 174, and Moorer's chin would let him down.
At this weight- 185- I think it really comes down to 2 guys, and, honestly, I'm suprised nobody mentioned it, as this would have to be one of the all-time dream, who would win if matches: Dempsey vs Marciano.
Though Dempsey did occasionally weigh 195-200, the majority of his fights were in the 185-190 range.
Gene Tunney and Harry Greb would have had the best chances vs Rocky.
nobody had a chance against the italian immigrant maniac "airplane propeller" who never tired. sometimes you just have to believe it.
I almost included Greb but stuck to lhQuote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong
I think my top ten 185 and unders would include the following (in no order)
Langford
Fitzsimmons
Tunney
Ezzard
Foster
Conn
Evander
Dempsey
Moore
Spinks
Now Rocky beat two of them, so while both were probably past their peaks, tought to reverse those.
Langford is where I think the rules under which they fight are extremely important. In a 25 round fight? As fit as Rocky was, nobody could sustain that pace that long. In a 15 rounder? Either Sam stops him on cuts or the Rock wins a decision. Fitzsimmons hung in there with Jim Jffries as an old man, but when Jeff turned up the heat Fitz was just too small. Same thing happenes here I think. Tunney is a toughie for the Rock. Could he have just stayed away and jabbed for 15? Same with Billy Conn. Tunney? Maybe. Conn gets stuipid and Rocky drills him late. Bob Foster and Spinks get blown away. They just didn't have a heavyweight's chin. Evander and Dempsey would both be "we need to have an ambulance in both corners" kind of fights. Just brutal, brutal affairs.
I think Tunney and Langford are probably the toughest style matchups and Evander and Dempsey would be gladitorial contests where I fear to pick a winner.
I will say that the more footage of Marciano one watches the more impressed one must be. Despite his rep for being awkward? he was amazingly strong, monumentally fit and while technically inconsistent? When he did things correctly? The result was a bolt of lightning. Watch the double shuffle that gets him to the right distance to KO Walcott or the double hook that destroys Kid Matthews.
Yup. As otherworldly as the Sheriff was at 175, when he got in their with heavies who could punch that's what seemed to happen didn't it?Quote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong
In these kinds of matchups the rules would make a big difference. Make them 12 round fights and the fast movers have more of a shot. Fifteen rounders really favor the Rock.Quote:
Originally Posted by brocktonblockbust
The heaviest Greb ever weighed was 176, for one fight, in the middle of his career. Conn weighed over 180 in only his last three fights, and as much as I love Conn that fighter isn't relevant in a "best of..." discussion. Otherwise, he fought in the mid 160s.
Yeah but BOTH of those guys handled several/many men who weighed 185 or so. I don't think the issue is how far under 185 one weights, it is how does one perform (while under 185) against other men at or around 185, isn't it?Quote:
Originally Posted by greynotsoold
Both of those guys can easily be entered onto someone's list. Conn is relevant and you could make the case Greb also as he handed Tunney his only pro loss and theirs another disputed loss to Tunney out of the 5 times they fought. Greb was a real p4p fighter in an 8 man division. He fought guys that outweighed him by more then 30 pounds. He beat up Levinsky who Nat Fleischer holds to be the 5th greatest light hev of all time. He also fought and beat future hev contenders. Conn was pitching a shut over a much better version of Louis then Marciano fought until the 13th round. Of course he's relevant to the conversation.Quote:
Originally Posted by greynotsoold
Yes Rocky would be the last man standing against Holyfield.
Stanley Ketchel would also deserve a mention.
So what we are talking about, then, is anybody 185 or under that somebody thinks could beat Marciano? Or really good fighters under 185 pounds?
[scratching head] I thought it was the former...but I could be wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by greynotsoold
Also scratching head, that's why I asked the question in my initial post. 185? You could drive a bus through that.
Dwight Muhammad Qawi was not average, far from it. He destroyed Matthew Saad Muhammad twice, and beat some very good Light Heavyweights.Quote:
Originally Posted by greynotsoold
And had a very successful Cruiserweight career, and whilst being way past his prime and at Heavyweight gave George Foreman some problems aswell.
Rocky Marciano beat an old Archie Moore, and an old Ezzard Charles. Im on about prime for prime here, or even a catch weight.
Evander Holyfield had the chin and the stamina, he also had the boxing skills. He would give Rocky Mariciano all he could handle and more.
Read my post again i never said those guys would beat him, i said they have a good chance or could compete with him which they easily could.
As for fighters like Harry Greb i've never seen any footage of him, so i really can't judge.
the former is correct.....1st we establish the top 10, then, by design, we determine if Marciano cold smoke 'em all,.......Ive made my determination. YES HE COULD.
I think a prime Ezzard Charles could have given Rocky some trouble and what if Joe Louis starved himself to get down to that weight.
A prime Charles would slap him silly. Marciano arguably fought in the weakest hev division in boxing history. By today's standards, that pretty lame. Its not his fault but it is what it is. Moore was essentially shot, Charles was terribly battle worn and Walcott was what 42, 43, 44? Nobody knows but he was waxing Marciano before Suzi Q saw the open door.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
Ftr I think what Marciano did was great but objectivity if applied would suggest that theirs probably 20 or more light-heavyweights post Marciano with a good shot at beating him let alone some of those from his own era.
Geeze I'd like to see that list.Quote:
Originally Posted by IamInuitA prime Charles would slap him silly. Marciano arguably fought in the weakest hev division in boxing history. By today's standards, that pretty lame. Its not his fault but it is what it is. Moore was essentially shot, Charles was terribly battle worn and Walcott was what 42, 43, 44? Nobody knows but he was waxing Marciano before Suzi Q saw the open door.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
Ftr I think what Marciano did was great but objectivity if applied would suggest that theirs probably 20 or more light-heavyweights post Marciano with a good shot at beating him let alone some of those from his own era.
Harold Johnson was great but little reason to thinjk his chin was good enough.
Willie Pastrano might have had a shot, but man he could do nothing to discourage the Rock.
Jose Torres was stopped by the Ox. Now he was a great puncher, but he was a middleweight. No shot.
I love Dick Tiger but come on.
Bob Foster has a shot, but his chin never held up against the big boys.
John Conteh? He has a shot. Very slick guy. He'd be on his bike all night.
Victor Galindez? Bye bye Victor.
Saad Muhammad. I love the guy but everybody hit him and I see no reason to believe he could take it. But he could keep the Rock honest.
Marvin Johnson? Hit hard enough to keep Rocky honest. Be a brawl as long as it lasted.
Qawi. It'd be a bloodbath but this is a bad matchup for Qawi.
Spinks. He'd win every round until Rocky knocked him out.
Virgil Hill. Next.
Evander. The toughest matchup for the Rock on this list I think.
Roy Jones. Jones would win the first 5-6 rounds. Then he'd make on of his routine footwork mistakes and he'd wake up three weeks later.
Darius. Good fight, Rocky wears him out and stops him late.
Calzaghe. I think this is a better matchup than most would say. Calzaghe is a tough guy and he could punch and was an extraordinary athlete. But how does he stop Rocky from coming? Can he cut him?
BHOP. No shot. Not active enough.
I mean I'd favor Rocky in every one of those fights except Evander.
Good post. And I don't think Holyfield would win either, because he'd get into a toe to toe fight against a guy that would be better at it. Holyfield squared up too much in close and, as a result, was real easy to hit with uppercuts and left hooks to the body.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiGeeze I'd like to see that list.Quote:
Originally Posted by IamInuitA prime Charles would slap him silly. Marciano arguably fought in the weakest hev division in boxing history. By today's standards, that pretty lame. Its not his fault but it is what it is. Moore was essentially shot, Charles was terribly battle worn and Walcott was what 42, 43, 44? Nobody knows but he was waxing Marciano before Suzi Q saw the open door.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
Ftr I think what Marciano did was great but objectivity if applied would suggest that theirs probably 20 or more light-heavyweights post Marciano with a good shot at beating him let alone some of those from his own era.
Harold Johnson was great but little reason to thinjk his chin was good enough.
Willie Pastrano might have had a shot, but man he could do nothing to discourage the Rock.
Jose Torres was stopped by the Ox. Now he was a great puncher, but he was a middleweight. No shot.
I love Dick Tiger but come on.
Bob Foster has a shot, but his chin never held up against the big boys.
John Conteh? He has a shot. Very slick guy. He'd be on his bike all night.
Victor Galindez? Bye bye Victor.
Saad Muhammad. I love the guy but everybody hit him and I see no reason to believe he could take it. But he could keep the Rock honest.
Marvin Johnson? Hit hard enough to keep Rocky honest. Be a brawl as long as it lasted.
Qawi. It'd be a bloodbath but this is a bad matchup for Qawi.
Spinks. He'd win every round until Rocky knocked him out.
Virgil Hill. Next.
Evander. The toughest matchup for the Rock on this list I think.
Roy Jones. Jones would win the first 5-6 rounds. Then he'd make on of his routine footwork mistakes and he'd wake up three weeks later.
Darius. Good fight, Rocky wears him out and stops him late.
Calzaghe. I think this is a better matchup than most would say. Calzaghe is a tough guy and he could punch and was an extraordinary athlete. But how does he stop Rocky from coming? Can he cut him?
BHOP. No shot. Not active enough.
I mean I'd favor Rocky in every one of those fights except Evander.
Beating Marciano, especially for a guy coming up in weight, would be trial by fire. You would have to keep moving, pick your spots, get your punches off and get away, and the fight could potentially end with every punch he threw. (Ask Kid Mathews about his left hook). Tunney could, possibly do this, as he did against Dempsey (coming off a long layoff), maybe Conn, but those guys really knew how to fight and had honed their skills in lots of rounds against very good opposition.
Also, Marciano would manhandle most smaller guys in clinches and this would be especially true against modern fighters because they don't know how to fight inside, much less in clinches.
Give me a few to ponder I mean seriously I think Harmon, Hall, Tarver, Griffin and Johnson would give him issues.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiGeeze I'd like to see that list.Quote:
Originally Posted by IamInuitA prime Charles would slap him silly. Marciano arguably fought in the weakest hev division in boxing history. By today's standards, that pretty lame. Its not his fault but it is what it is. Moore was essentially shot, Charles was terribly battle worn and Walcott was what 42, 43, 44? Nobody knows but he was waxing Marciano before Suzi Q saw the open door.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
Ftr I think what Marciano did was great but objectivity if applied would suggest that theirs probably 20 or more light-heavyweights post Marciano with a good shot at beating him let alone some of those from his own era.
Harold Johnson was great but little reason to thinjk his chin was good enough.
Willie Pastrano might have had a shot, but man he could do nothing to discourage the Rock.
Jose Torres was stopped by the Ox. Now he was a great puncher, but he was a middleweight. No shot.
I love Dick Tiger but come on.
Bob Foster has a shot, but his chin never held up against the big boys.
John Conteh? He has a shot. Very slick guy. He'd be on his bike all night.
Victor Galindez? Bye bye Victor.
Saad Muhammad. I love the guy but everybody hit him and I see no reason to believe he could take it. But he could keep the Rock honest.
Marvin Johnson? Hit hard enough to keep Rocky honest. Be a brawl as long as it lasted.
Qawi. It'd be a bloodbath but this is a bad matchup for Qawi.
Spinks. He'd win every round until Rocky knocked him out.
Virgil Hill. Next.
Evander. The toughest matchup for the Rock on this list I think.
Roy Jones. Jones would win the first 5-6 rounds. Then he'd make on of his routine footwork mistakes and he'd wake up three weeks later.
Darius. Good fight, Rocky wears him out and stops him late.
Calzaghe. I think this is a better matchup than most would say. Calzaghe is a tough guy and he could punch and was an extraordinary athlete. But how does he stop Rocky from coming? Can he cut him?
BHOP. No shot. Not active enough.
I mean I'd favor Rocky in every one of those fights except Evander.
Anyway lets assume prime in all hypothetical.
I'm drawing a complete blank on "Harmon." Help?Quote:
Originally Posted by IamInuitGive me a few to ponder I mean seriously I think Harmon, Hall, Tarver, Griffin and Johnson would give him issues.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiGeeze I'd like to see that list.Quote:
Originally Posted by IamInuitA prime Charles would slap him silly. Marciano arguably fought in the weakest hev division in boxing history. By today's standards, that pretty lame. Its not his fault but it is what it is. Moore was essentially shot, Charles was terribly battle worn and Walcott was what 42, 43, 44? Nobody knows but he was waxing Marciano before Suzi Q saw the open door.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
Ftr I think what Marciano did was great but objectivity if applied would suggest that theirs probably 20 or more light-heavyweights post Marciano with a good shot at beating him let alone some of those from his own era.
Harold Johnson was great but little reason to thinjk his chin was good enough.
Willie Pastrano might have had a shot, but man he could do nothing to discourage the Rock.
Jose Torres was stopped by the Ox. Now he was a great puncher, but he was a middleweight. No shot.
I love Dick Tiger but come on.
Bob Foster has a shot, but his chin never held up against the big boys.
John Conteh? He has a shot. Very slick guy. He'd be on his bike all night.
Victor Galindez? Bye bye Victor.
Saad Muhammad. I love the guy but everybody hit him and I see no reason to believe he could take it. But he could keep the Rock honest.
Marvin Johnson? Hit hard enough to keep Rocky honest. Be a brawl as long as it lasted.
Qawi. It'd be a bloodbath but this is a bad matchup for Qawi.
Spinks. He'd win every round until Rocky knocked him out.
Virgil Hill. Next.
Evander. The toughest matchup for the Rock on this list I think.
Roy Jones. Jones would win the first 5-6 rounds. Then he'd make on of his routine footwork mistakes and he'd wake up three weeks later.
Darius. Good fight, Rocky wears him out and stops him late.
Calzaghe. I think this is a better matchup than most would say. Calzaghe is a tough guy and he could punch and was an extraordinary athlete. But how does he stop Rocky from coming? Can he cut him?
BHOP. No shot. Not active enough.
I mean I'd favor Rocky in every one of those fights except Evander.
Anyway lets assume prime in all hypothetical.
Griffin as in Montell Griffin? That looks to me like a three round fight.
Richard Hall certainly had the height and wingspan to be a problem and I'm scratching my head to remember if the Rock rant into a competent southpaw. But Hall used to just run out of steam didn't he? Wouldn't Rock pressure him into exhaustion? I don't have great Hall memories though.
Tarver has the long lefty thing going but has he ever been active enough to win rounds against a guy like Marciano?
Tell you the truth think Evander would knock him out or stop him by cuts. Rocky's a tad overrated his era was the worst there every was in the history of the heavyweights all his wins or against shot fighters.
I don't know if it would be true to say that everybody Marciano fought was shot...Coming into their fight Kid Mathews was on a 51 fight win streak. LaStarza was 37-0 in the first fight, 53-3 in the second. Rex Layne had gone 17-0-2 coming to fight Marciano. Moore went 37-3-1 after that fight, losing to Ali and Patterson. The third fight, in Italy, I don't know that he tried to win that fight, but he certainly tried in the rematch in New York, for $100,000.
For the life of me I can't figure out why Holyfield is considered so good. Tough guy, a lot of heart. Mediocre puncher, pretty good left hook, so easy to hit, and, other than the first Tyson fight, never too smart in the ring.
If Holyfeild fought in Rockys time he would of destroyed the comp. If Rocky was in his era i can't say the same not sure if your old or just favor older fighters. Just seem to me that you overrate the past a tad to much. i mean in ever post of yours seems favor the older generation might just be me.
If Holyfield could take power shots from Foreman, Tyson, Bowe, Lewis, I say he can take Rocky's power. As someone pointed out Holyfield can do extremely well in Rocky's era, but do you see Rocky competing in Holyfield's era? Rocky against Tyson, Bowe, lewis, old Foreman, etc. I don't think he can take anyone of them.
People you mention grey were nobodies the only named fighters he beat were shot to shit. The one in the best shape was Wallcot and his ass was like a 1000 years old by then and he almost won.
Arnold Raymond Cream (January 31, 1914 – February 25, 1994), better known as Jersey Joe Walcott, was a world heavyweight boxing champion.
That means in September 1952 when Marciano beat his ass, he was 38 years old.
George Foreman, let's remember, won the title at 46. 38 years old is not a spring chicken by any means, but ......
it aint 1000 years odl, and it aint 41, 42, 43 years old either. Get real.
They were never sure of the real date of his birth if you read the bio most said he was older.
Also Foreman was hell a better fighter then Wallcot anyhow i didn't even bring Foreman up dude.