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Ten extraordinary boxing accomplishments
Things remarkable men have done in our sport (in no order).
Henry Armstrong Holds Three Championships Simultaneously-The thought of it just staggers the imagination. He held every belt between 126 and 147. That's the equivalent of 20 belts today, all at the same time. And he didn't beat stiffs to do it. Petey Sarron was a fine feather and Lou Ambers and Barney Ross are both HOFers.
Mickey Walker's Move Through Divisions-The Toy Bulldog was 5'7 with a 67" reach. That's about Manny Pacquiao's dimensions. He was undisputed welter and middle king. But he moved up in weight to make more money. He defeated several ranked light heavies and a HOFer in Slappy Maxie and got a draw with HOF heavyweight Jack Sharkey. Just amazing for a little man.
Muhammad Ali's Level of Competition-Ali defeated 33 ranked heavyweights. Only Joe Louis comes close. Ali went 11-3 against HOFers. Sick.
Harry Greb's 1919-In that calendar year the Windmill fought forty five times and didn't lose. Yup 45-0 in one year. And he wasn't fighting tomato cans either. He beat HOFers on six occasions and champions who aren't HOFers another three times. In other words he had a 21st century career in a single year.
Ray Leonard's Big Four-I'm not sure there is a fighter in the history of the sport who has four wins over four different fighters that is any more impressive than Leonard's wins over Wilfred Benitez, Robert Duran, Tommy Hearns and Marvin Hagler.
Ray Robinson's Record Before His Retirement-Ray's record when he retired was 131-3-2. In making that record he had gone 17-3 against HOFers and in an era of one belt for each of the eight divisions he had beaten thirteen champions. After taking 30 months off? All Robinson did for an encore was come back at 34 and win the middleweight title four more times.
How Jimmy McLarnin Closed His Career-McLarnin, like Manny P, began as a flyweight and won the welterweight championship. He was a man whose punch was too big for his hands. They kept breaking down on him. So McLarnin only fought sixty times. But he made them count. In his last fourteen fights he went 9-5. So what you say? Well, how about if I told you twelve of those fights were against HOFers and another was over a champion? Still not doing it for you? Let's look at some names...Ross...Canzoneri...Leonard...Ambers. Example 2,317 why records alone don't tell one much.
Pipino Cuevas Breaks Bones-One of only a handful of teenaged champions, the Mexican welter is properly in the HOF despite a career record of only 35-15. He lost six of his first twelve and eight of his last fourteen. But during his run to the welterweight title and his eleven defenses Pipino was a wrecking machine. In that run he broke three opponents' jaws, an eye socket, pushed teeth through a lower lip and ended at least two careers. Has anyone ever been more explosive?
Willie Pep AFTER the Plane Crash-At 24 Pep was the the undisputed featherweight king and is 109-1-1. In a plane crash that kills several passengers Pep suffers severe injuries including a broken back and is told he'll never walk again. How tough was Pep? Six months later he was back in the ring. Though observers say he was never the same? Pep went 120-10-0 in the rest of his career. He defeated over twenty ranked contenders and had perhaps his greatest win, a fifteen round masterpiece over his nemesis, ATG Sandy Saddler.
Len Wickwar-Who? Take a look at this. 338-85-42. Yup, that is one man's record. Wickwar was a Brit lightweight of the 1930's. A journeyman for sure. But I don't care who one is fighting, 450 fights in a twelve year career is crazy. He fought, on average, every ten days for over a decade. Did Wickwar know what he was doing? Well he lived to be seventy so his boxing days didn't ruin him.
What else ya got?
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Re: Ten extraordinary boxing accomplishments
Joe Louis 25 title defences.I know all his opponents were not exactly world class but it is still an amazing achevement.
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Re: Ten extraordinary boxing accomplishments
Quote:
Originally Posted by
porkypara
Joe Louis 25 title defences.I know all his opponents were not exactly world class but it is still an amazing achevement.
That's a GREAT one! And almost all of Louis' defenses were against ranked guys. He may not have had the competition Ali did, but Louis fought everyone there was to fight.
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Re: Ten extraordinary boxing accomplishments
I know a lot of people will disagree but I think Calzaghe and Marciano's unbeaten record is also a great achevement.
To go your whole carrer and not slip up once when your fighting world class opponents is great IMO even if you dont think they were great fighters or not.
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Re: Ten extraordinary boxing accomplishments
Quote:
Originally Posted by
porkypara
I know a lot of people will disagree but I think Calzaghe and Marciano's unbeaten record is also a great achevement.
To go your whole carrer and not slip up once when your fighting world class opponents is great IMO even if you dont think they were great fighters or not.
What's great about Marciano's is he wrecked the division. I don't know what to say abolut Calzaghe's. I mean when there is another unbeaten guy in your division and on your continent that you don't fight? How does one even know if Calzaghe was the best 168 within 300 miles?
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Re: Ten extraordinary boxing accomplishments
Jack Johnson, 1st black HW champ. Never been repeated again.;D
Floyd Patterson, youngest HW champ. Record hasn't been broken yet in this day and age.
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Re: Ten extraordinary boxing accomplishments
Quote:
Originally Posted by
generalbulldog
Jack Johnson, 1st black HW champ. Never been repeated again.;D
Floyd Patterson, youngest HW champ. Record hasn't been broken yet in this day and age.
Thank GOD there are people who understand Tyson wasn't champ until he beat Spinks!
As for Jack Johnson he's one of those guys the more you read and watch the more impressive he becomes. My gripe with those who want him pardoned for his crimes is he did nothing which should require a pardon. Don't honor the charges that way. See them as the injustice they were.
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Re: Ten extraordinary boxing accomplishments
Quote:
Originally Posted by
marbleheadmaui
Quote:
Originally Posted by
porkypara
I know a lot of people will disagree but I think Calzaghe and Marciano's unbeaten record is also a great achevement.
To go your whole carrer and not slip up once when your fighting world class opponents is great IMO even if you dont think they were great fighters or not.
What's great about Marciano's is he wrecked the division. I don't know what to say abolut Calzaghe's. I mean when there is another unbeaten guy in your division and on your continent that you don't fight? How does one even know if Calzaghe was the best 168 within 300 miles?
Marciano only fought 5 opponents as a champ I think?
Of modern heavies Tyson beating 3 seperate champs to unify and defend the unified championship 7 times is an acheivment.
Chris Eubanks fight schedule between the Benn rematch and the first Collins fight. 6 fights as defending champ in 94. All 12 rounders around the world.
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Re: Ten extraordinary boxing accomplishments
Quote:
Originally Posted by
marbleheadmaui
Quote:
Originally Posted by
generalbulldog
Jack Johnson, 1st black HW champ. Never been repeated again.;D
Floyd Patterson, youngest HW champ. Record hasn't been broken yet in this day and age.
Thank GOD there are people who understand Tyson wasn't champ until he beat Spinks!
As for Jack Johnson he's one of those guys the more you read and watch the more impressive he becomes. My gripe with those who want him pardoned for his crimes is he did nothing which should require a pardon. Don't honor the charges that way. See them as the injustice they were.
I feel ya. Patterson when he fought Moore for the title abdicated by Marciano due to retirement, was considered to be the real legit and new lineal champ.
Lineal Title>ABC alphabet soup title.
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Re: Ten extraordinary boxing accomplishments
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ross
Quote:
Originally Posted by
marbleheadmaui
Quote:
Originally Posted by
porkypara
I know a lot of people will disagree but I think Calzaghe and Marciano's unbeaten record is also a great achevement.
To go your whole carrer and not slip up once when your fighting world class opponents is great IMO even if you dont think they were great fighters or not.
What's great about Marciano's is he wrecked the division. I don't know what to say abolut Calzaghe's. I mean when there is another unbeaten guy in your division and on your continent that you don't fight? How does one even know if Calzaghe was the best 168 within 300 miles?
Marciano only fought 5 opponents as a champ I think?
Of modern heavies Tyson beating 3 seperate champs to unify and defend the unified championship 7 times is an acheivment.
Chris Eubanks fight schedule between the Benn rematch and the first Collins fight. 6 fights as defending champ in 94. All 12 rounders around the world.
The bold is just wrong. Tyson wasn't a champ until he beat Mike Spinks. He was just another strapholder. Championships are won in the ring by taking the title from the man who beat the man who beat them man. They cannot be awarded by some corrupt abc group. Tyson had two defenses as champ.
Wasn't Eubank fun? The sports needs more whacky warriors like him. How about Ike Williams in 1948? he goes 10-0, defends the undisputed lightweight title three times, beats two HOFers and three other ranked contenders. Not too shabby either.
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Re: Ten extraordinary boxing accomplishments
Good stuff. Not trying to quibble but wanted to make a few comments..
Quote:
Originally Posted by
marbleheadmaui
Things remarkable men have done in our sport (in no order).
Henry Armstrong Holds Three Championships Simultaneously-The thought of it just staggers the imagination. He held every belt between 126 and 147. That's the equivalent of 20 belts today, all at the same time. And he didn't beat stiffs to do it. Petey Sarron was a fine feather and Lou Ambers and Barney Ross are both HOFers.
Technically he never had all 3 at once as he gave 126 up shortly after winning it in order to fixate on 135 and 147. 27 straight ko’s 1937/38. He did get all three in a span of 10 months which is astonishing. If not for the dubious draw against Garcia he would have had the 160 title also although the fight was not recognized as such by all. Several historians believe he had more like 260 fights then the recorded if you count his fights under Melody Jackson.
Mickey Walker's Move Through Divisions-The Toy Bulldog was 5'7 with a 67" reach. That's about Manny Pacquiao's dimensions. He was undisputed welter and middle king. But he moved up in weight to make more money. He defeated several ranked light heavies and a HOFer in Slappy Maxie and got a draw with HOF heavyweight Jack Sharkey. Just amazing for a little man.
The fighting Irish. Springs Toledo included him in his Gods of War series. One can only imagine what his fight with Greb was like. I read in Ring many years ago that there was a copy of that fight sitting in someone’s dusty attic. Another amazing thing about Walker is that he would at times enter the ring half in the bag.
Muhammad Ali's Level of Competition-Ali defeated 33 ranked heavyweights. Only Joe Louis comes close. Ali went 11-3 against HOFers. Sick.
Sadly there will probably never be that kind of heavyweight division again.
Harry Greb's 1919-In that calendar year the Windmill fought forty five times and didn't lose. Yup 45-0 in one year. And he wasn't fighting tomato cans either. He beat HOFers on six occasions and champions who aren't HOFers another three times. In other words he had a 21st century career in a single year.
My favourite middle weight of all time.
Ray Leonard's Big Four-I'm not sure there is a fighter in the history of the sport who has four wins over four different fighters that is any more impressive than Leonard's wins over Wilfred Benitez, Robert Duran, Tommy Hearns and Marvin Hagler.
Not many in history could equal that string. Quite the feat for sure. Never liked him in his day because of his personality but I sure respect the man all these years later.
Ray Robinson's Record Before His Retirement-Ray's record when he retired was 131-3-2. In making that record he had gone 17-3 against HOFers and in an era of one belt for each of the eight divisions he had beaten thirteen champions. After taking 30 months off? All Robinson did for an encore was come back at 34 and win the middleweight title four more times.
His peak record was actually 128-1-2 with 84 knockouts. He fought 18 world champions and beat 10 Hall of famers. It’s a damn shame there is only one or two fights of his around at 147 with the rest being lost in a fire or whatever. Wished he would have fought Burley or others from the Murders Row other then a shot Wade.
Willie Pep AFTER the Plane Crash-At 24 Pep was the the undisputed featherweight king and is 109-1-1. In a plane crash that kills several passengers Pep suffers severe injuries including a broken back and is told he'll never walk again. How tough was Pep? Six months later he was back in the ring. Though observers say he was never the same? Pep went 120-10-0 in the rest of his career. He defeated over twenty ranked contenders and had perhaps his greatest win, a fifteen round masterpiece over his nemesis, ATG Sandy Saddler.
Peps peak record was 135-1-1. The greatest win/loss ratio in boxing history.
A defensive wizard.
Len Wickwar-Who? Take a look at this. 338-85-42. Yup, that is one man's record. Wickwar was a Brit lightweight of the 1930's. A journeyman for sure. But I don't care who one is fighting, 450 fights in a twelve year career is crazy. He fought, on average, every ten days for over a decade. Did Wickwar know what he was doing? Well he lived to be seventy so his boxing days didn't ruin him.
What else ya got?
The great Canadian George Dixon surpasses that number and by quite a bit. Some estimates have him at around 800 fights.
George Dixon Biography - May Have Fought Bouts (800 ), Fought Twice in One Day, Paid Cost of High Living
Jimmy Wilde is up their to if you include his booth fights, probably close to 500.
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Re: Ten extraordinary boxing accomplishments
Quote:
Originally Posted by
IamInuit
Good stuff. Not trying to quibble but wanted to make a few comments..
Quote:
Originally Posted by
marbleheadmaui
Things remarkable men have done in our sport (in no order).
Henry Armstrong Holds Three Championships Simultaneously-The thought of it just staggers the imagination. He held every belt between 126 and 147. That's the equivalent of 20 belts today, all at the same time. And he didn't beat stiffs to do it. Petey Sarron was a fine feather and Lou Ambers and Barney Ross are both HOFers.
Technically he never had all 3 at once as he gave 126 up shortly after winning it in order to fixate on 135 and 147. 27 straight ko’s 1937/38. He did get all three in a span of 10 months which is astonishing. If not for the dubious draw against Garcia he would have had the 160 title also although the fight was not recognized as such by all. Several historians believe he had more like 260 fights then the recorded if you count his fights under Melody Jackson.
Mickey Walker's Move Through Divisions-The Toy Bulldog was 5'7 with a 67" reach. That's about Manny Pacquiao's dimensions. He was undisputed welter and middle king. But he moved up in weight to make more money. He defeated several ranked light heavies and a HOFer in Slappy Maxie and got a draw with HOF heavyweight Jack Sharkey. Just amazing for a little man.
The fighting Irish. Springs Toledo included him in his Gods of War series. One can only imagine what his fight with Greb was like. I read in Ring many years ago that there was a copy of that fight sitting in someone’s dusty attic. Another amazing thing about Walker is that he would at times enter the ring half in the bag.
Muhammad Ali's Level of Competition-Ali defeated 33 ranked heavyweights. Only Joe Louis comes close. Ali went 11-3 against HOFers. Sick.
Sadly there will probably never be that kind of heavyweight division again.
Harry Greb's 1919-In that calendar year the Windmill fought forty five times and didn't lose. Yup 45-0 in one year. And he wasn't fighting tomato cans either. He beat HOFers on six occasions and champions who aren't HOFers another three times. In other words he had a 21st century career in a single year.
My favourite middle weight of all time.
Ray Leonard's Big Four-I'm not sure there is a fighter in the history of the sport who has four wins over four different fighters that is any more impressive than Leonard's wins over Wilfred Benitez, Robert Duran, Tommy Hearns and Marvin Hagler.
Not many in history could equal that string. Quite the feat for sure. Never liked him in his day because of his personality but I sure respect the man all these years later.
Ray Robinson's Record Before His Retirement-Ray's record when he retired was 131-3-2. In making that record he had gone 17-3 against HOFers and in an era of one belt for each of the eight divisions he had beaten thirteen champions. After taking 30 months off? All Robinson did for an encore was come back at 34 and win the middleweight title four more times.
His peak record was actually 128-1-2 with 84 knockouts. He fought 18 world champions and beat 10 Hall of famers. It’s a damn shame there is only one or two fights of his around at 147 with the rest being lost in a fire or whatever. Wished he would have fought Burley or others from the Murders Row other then a shot Wade.
Willie Pep AFTER the Plane Crash-At 24 Pep was the the undisputed featherweight king and is 109-1-1. In a plane crash that kills several passengers Pep suffers severe injuries including a broken back and is told he'll never walk again. How tough was Pep? Six months later he was back in the ring. Though observers say he was never the same? Pep went 120-10-0 in the rest of his career. He defeated over twenty ranked contenders and had perhaps his greatest win, a fifteen round masterpiece over his nemesis, ATG Sandy Saddler.
Peps peak record was 135-1-1. The greatest win/loss ratio in boxing history.
A defensive wizard.
Len Wickwar-Who? Take a look at this. 338-85-42. Yup, that is one man's record. Wickwar was a Brit lightweight of the 1930's. A journeyman for sure. But I don't care who one is fighting, 450 fights in a twelve year career is crazy. He fought, on average, every ten days for over a decade. Did Wickwar know what he was doing? Well he lived to be seventy so his boxing days didn't ruin him.
What else ya got?
The great Canadian George Dixon surpasses that number and by quite a bit. Some estimates have him at around 800 fights.
George Dixon Biography - May Have Fought Bouts (800 ), Fought Twice in One Day, Paid Cost of High Living
Jimmy Wilde is up their to if you include his booth fights, probably close to 500.
GREAT response, thanks! I didn't think Armstrong gave up the feather crown until; after he defeated Ross, but I could be wrong. The stroy on the Garcia fight is (supposedly) Homicide had to win by KO or it would be a draw...the little footage I have of a 147 Robinson is simply staggering. He is so blindingly fast and sooooo long...Wilde (one of my favorites) I knew had over 400 fights with many of those where he'd have a booth at a fair and fight all comers all day. Think he knew a little about getting it done without getting hit?...Dixon I knew had more than recorded, but 800? HOLY CRAP!...Watching Pep, even post plane crash is sometimes hysterical. He could get entirely behind guys time after time and they just couldn't keep up. The other thing about Pep people misunderstand is his punching power. He could punch, he just chose to save his hands when he could. How can we know this? How many guys KO% goes up in championship fights? Pep's did.
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Re: Ten extraordinary boxing accomplishments
Quote:
Originally Posted by
marbleheadmaui
Quote:
Originally Posted by
IamInuit
Good stuff. Not trying to quibble but wanted to make a few comments..
Quote:
Originally Posted by
marbleheadmaui
Things remarkable men have done in our sport (in no order).
Henry Armstrong Holds Three Championships Simultaneously-The thought of it just staggers the imagination. He held every belt between 126 and 147. That's the equivalent of 20 belts today, all at the same time. And he didn't beat stiffs to do it. Petey Sarron was a fine feather and Lou Ambers and Barney Ross are both HOFers.
Technically he never had all 3 at once as he gave 126 up shortly after winning it in order to fixate on 135 and 147. 27 straight ko’s 1937/38. He did get all three in a span of 10 months which is astonishing. If not for the dubious draw against Garcia he would have had the 160 title also although the fight was not recognized as such by all. Several historians believe he had more like 260 fights then the recorded if you count his fights under Melody Jackson.
Mickey Walker's Move Through Divisions-The Toy Bulldog was 5'7 with a 67" reach. That's about Manny Pacquiao's dimensions. He was undisputed welter and middle king. But he moved up in weight to make more money. He defeated several ranked light heavies and a HOFer in Slappy Maxie and got a draw with HOF heavyweight Jack Sharkey. Just amazing for a little man.
The fighting Irish. Springs Toledo included him in his Gods of War series. One can only imagine what his fight with Greb was like. I read in Ring many years ago that there was a copy of that fight sitting in someone’s dusty attic. Another amazing thing about Walker is that he would at times enter the ring half in the bag.
Muhammad Ali's Level of Competition-Ali defeated 33 ranked heavyweights. Only Joe Louis comes close. Ali went 11-3 against HOFers. Sick.
Sadly there will probably never be that kind of heavyweight division again.
Harry Greb's 1919-In that calendar year the Windmill fought forty five times and didn't lose. Yup 45-0 in one year. And he wasn't fighting tomato cans either. He beat HOFers on six occasions and champions who aren't HOFers another three times. In other words he had a 21st century career in a single year.
My favourite middle weight of all time.
Ray Leonard's Big Four-I'm not sure there is a fighter in the history of the sport who has four wins over four different fighters that is any more impressive than Leonard's wins over Wilfred Benitez, Robert Duran, Tommy Hearns and Marvin Hagler.
Not many in history could equal that string. Quite the feat for sure. Never liked him in his day because of his personality but I sure respect the man all these years later.
Ray Robinson's Record Before His Retirement-Ray's record when he retired was 131-3-2. In making that record he had gone 17-3 against HOFers and in an era of one belt for each of the eight divisions he had beaten thirteen champions. After taking 30 months off? All Robinson did for an encore was come back at 34 and win the middleweight title four more times.
His peak record was actually 128-1-2 with 84 knockouts. He fought 18 world champions and beat 10 Hall of famers. It’s a damn shame there is only one or two fights of his around at 147 with the rest being lost in a fire or whatever. Wished he would have fought Burley or others from the Murders Row other then a shot Wade.
Willie Pep AFTER the Plane Crash-At 24 Pep was the the undisputed featherweight king and is 109-1-1. In a plane crash that kills several passengers Pep suffers severe injuries including a broken back and is told he'll never walk again. How tough was Pep? Six months later he was back in the ring. Though observers say he was never the same? Pep went 120-10-0 in the rest of his career. He defeated over twenty ranked contenders and had perhaps his greatest win, a fifteen round masterpiece over his nemesis, ATG Sandy Saddler.
Peps peak record was 135-1-1. The greatest win/loss ratio in boxing history.
A defensive wizard.
Len Wickwar-Who? Take a look at this. 338-85-42. Yup, that is one man's record. Wickwar was a Brit lightweight of the 1930's. A journeyman for sure. But I don't care who one is fighting, 450 fights in a twelve year career is crazy. He fought, on average, every ten days for over a decade. Did Wickwar know what he was doing? Well he lived to be seventy so his boxing days didn't ruin him.
What else ya got?
The great Canadian George Dixon surpasses that number and by quite a bit. Some estimates have him at around 800 fights.
George Dixon Biography - May Have Fought Bouts (800 ), Fought Twice in One Day, Paid Cost of High Living
Jimmy Wilde is up their to if you include his booth fights, probably close to 500.
GREAT response, thanks! I didn't think Armstrong gave up the feather crown until; after he defeated Ross, but I could be wrong. The stroy on the Garcia fight is (supposedly) Homicide had to win by KO or it would be a draw...the little footage I have of a 147 Robinson is simply staggering. He is so blindingly fast and sooooo long...Wilde (one of my favorites) I knew had over 400 fights with many of those where he'd have a booth at a fair and fight all comers all day. Think he knew a little about getting it done without getting hit?...Dixon I knew had more than recorded, but 800? HOLY CRAP!...Watching Pep, even post plane crash is sometimes hysterical. He could get entirely behind guys time after time and they just couldn't keep up. The other thing about Pep people misunderstand is his punching power.
He could punch, he just chose to save his hands when he could. How can we know this? How many guys KO% goes up in championship fights? Pep's did.
Thanks.
Just a great point about Pep and power. Rarely gets brought up. I think Wilde is the best Flyweight that ever lived and that includes Lopez. Quite possibly using the p4p equation the biggest puncher to date. Dixon is a Canadian anomaly. Fought both bare knuckle and gloved. Oh and just another tidbit. When they opened up Hank after he died, they found he had a heart a third larger then normal. Hence the long warm ups before the fight and the reason the dude could go full bore for 15 rounds. He probably had the heart rate of a bear.
Good banter man.
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Re: Ten extraordinary boxing accomplishments
Quote:
Originally Posted by
IamInuit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
marbleheadmaui
Quote:
Originally Posted by
IamInuit
Good stuff. Not trying to quibble but wanted to make a few comments..
Quote:
Originally Posted by
marbleheadmaui
Things remarkable men have done in our sport (in no order).
Henry Armstrong Holds Three Championships Simultaneously-The thought of it just staggers the imagination. He held every belt between 126 and 147. That's the equivalent of 20 belts today, all at the same time. And he didn't beat stiffs to do it. Petey Sarron was a fine feather and Lou Ambers and Barney Ross are both HOFers.
Technically he never had all 3 at once as he gave 126 up shortly after winning it in order to fixate on 135 and 147. 27 straight ko’s 1937/38. He did get all three in a span of 10 months which is astonishing. If not for the dubious draw against Garcia he would have had the 160 title also although the fight was not recognized as such by all. Several historians believe he had more like 260 fights then the recorded if you count his fights under Melody Jackson.
Mickey Walker's Move Through Divisions-The Toy Bulldog was 5'7 with a 67" reach. That's about Manny Pacquiao's dimensions. He was undisputed welter and middle king. But he moved up in weight to make more money. He defeated several ranked light heavies and a HOFer in Slappy Maxie and got a draw with HOF heavyweight Jack Sharkey. Just amazing for a little man.
The fighting Irish. Springs Toledo included him in his Gods of War series. One can only imagine what his fight with Greb was like. I read in Ring many years ago that there was a copy of that fight sitting in someone’s dusty attic. Another amazing thing about Walker is that he would at times enter the ring half in the bag.
Muhammad Ali's Level of Competition-Ali defeated 33 ranked heavyweights. Only Joe Louis comes close. Ali went 11-3 against HOFers. Sick.
Sadly there will probably never be that kind of heavyweight division again.
Harry Greb's 1919-In that calendar year the Windmill fought forty five times and didn't lose. Yup 45-0 in one year. And he wasn't fighting tomato cans either. He beat HOFers on six occasions and champions who aren't HOFers another three times. In other words he had a 21st century career in a single year.
My favourite middle weight of all time.
Ray Leonard's Big Four-I'm not sure there is a fighter in the history of the sport who has four wins over four different fighters that is any more impressive than Leonard's wins over Wilfred Benitez, Robert Duran, Tommy Hearns and Marvin Hagler.
Not many in history could equal that string. Quite the feat for sure. Never liked him in his day because of his personality but I sure respect the man all these years later.
Ray Robinson's Record Before His Retirement-Ray's record when he retired was 131-3-2. In making that record he had gone 17-3 against HOFers and in an era of one belt for each of the eight divisions he had beaten thirteen champions. After taking 30 months off? All Robinson did for an encore was come back at 34 and win the middleweight title four more times.
His peak record was actually 128-1-2 with 84 knockouts. He fought 18 world champions and beat 10 Hall of famers. It’s a damn shame there is only one or two fights of his around at 147 with the rest being lost in a fire or whatever. Wished he would have fought Burley or others from the Murders Row other then a shot Wade.
Willie Pep AFTER the Plane Crash-At 24 Pep was the the undisputed featherweight king and is 109-1-1. In a plane crash that kills several passengers Pep suffers severe injuries including a broken back and is told he'll never walk again. How tough was Pep? Six months later he was back in the ring. Though observers say he was never the same? Pep went 120-10-0 in the rest of his career. He defeated over twenty ranked contenders and had perhaps his greatest win, a fifteen round masterpiece over his nemesis, ATG Sandy Saddler.
Peps peak record was 135-1-1. The greatest win/loss ratio in boxing history.
A defensive wizard.
Len Wickwar-Who? Take a look at this. 338-85-42. Yup, that is one man's record. Wickwar was a Brit lightweight of the 1930's. A journeyman for sure. But I don't care who one is fighting, 450 fights in a twelve year career is crazy. He fought, on average, every ten days for over a decade. Did Wickwar know what he was doing? Well he lived to be seventy so his boxing days didn't ruin him.
What else ya got?
The great Canadian George Dixon surpasses that number and by quite a bit. Some estimates have him at around 800 fights.
George Dixon Biography - May Have Fought Bouts (800 ), Fought Twice in One Day, Paid Cost of High Living
Jimmy Wilde is up their to if you include his booth fights, probably close to 500.
GREAT response, thanks! I didn't think Armstrong gave up the feather crown until; after he defeated Ross, but I could be wrong. The stroy on the Garcia fight is (supposedly) Homicide had to win by KO or it would be a draw...the little footage I have of a 147 Robinson is simply staggering. He is so blindingly fast and sooooo long...Wilde (one of my favorites) I knew had over 400 fights with many of those where he'd have a booth at a fair and fight all comers all day. Think he knew a little about getting it done without getting hit?...Dixon I knew had more than recorded, but 800? HOLY CRAP!...Watching Pep, even post plane crash is sometimes hysterical. He could get entirely behind guys time after time and they just couldn't keep up. The other thing about Pep people misunderstand is his punching power.
He could punch, he just chose to save his hands when he could. How can we know this? How many guys KO% goes up in championship fights? Pep's did.
Thanks.
Just a great point about Pep and power. Rarely gets brought up. I think Wilde is the best Flyweight that ever lived and that includes Lopez. Quite possibly using the p4p equation the biggest puncher to date. Dixon is a Canadian anomaly. Fought both bare knuckle and gloved. Oh and just another tidbit. When they opened up Hank after he died, they found he had a heart a third larger then normal. Hence the long warm ups before the fight and the reason the dude could go full bore for 15 rounds. He probably had the heart rate of a bear.
Good banter man.
The idea that Armstrong had to work hard for an hour to break a sweat before a fight is somewhere between shocking and literally unbelievable, isn't it? A pure physical freak. No wonder he could throw 100+ punches a round all night long. Jimmy Wilde and Finito is one of my handful of desert island fights. Two gigantic fighting spirits. Finito is longer, taller and technically a little more sound, but the Ghost hits so hard and Lopez could be reached. I'd take the the Welshman...but I'd root for Finto :)
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Re: Ten extraordinary boxing accomplishments
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ross
Quote:
Originally Posted by
marbleheadmaui
Quote:
Originally Posted by
porkypara
I know a lot of people will disagree but I think Calzaghe and Marciano's unbeaten record is also a great achevement.
To go your whole carrer and not slip up once when your fighting world class opponents is great IMO even if you dont think they were great fighters or not.
What's great about Marciano's is he wrecked the division. I don't know what to say abolut Calzaghe's. I mean when there is another unbeaten guy in your division and on your continent that you don't fight? How does one even know if Calzaghe was the best 168 within 300 miles?
Marciano only fought 5 opponents as a champ I think?
Of modern heavies Tyson beating 3 seperate champs to unify and defend the unified championship 7 times is an acheivment.
Chris Eubanks fight schedule between the Benn rematch and the first Collins fight. 6 fights as defending champ in 94. All 12 rounders around the world.
To put Eubank's name in the top ten boxing accomplishments is an insult , firstly he was WBO champion which was the weakest at the time. He wasnt even close to being the best in his division, and his choice of oponants was questionable at best , lots were just club fighters , and he rarely looked good against any of them.
Personally i think PACMAN'S jump from FLY up to JMW and retaining his speed and power is one of the best accomplishments.
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Re: Ten extraordinary boxing accomplishments
Wilfredo Benitez beating Cervantes for the lineal 140 crown at 17! He was still a boy and not yet a developed man yet. The youngest in history to achieve this feat. In fact I can only name 2 other guys in boxing history that became lineal champs at their division in their teen years. One is Canzoneri and the other Pacquiao. I'm pretty sure there may be 1 or 2 more but I'm not sure.
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Re: Ten extraordinary boxing accomplishments
Quote:
Originally Posted by
generalbulldog
Wilfredo Benitez beating Cervantes for the lineal 140 crown at 17! He was still a boy and not yet a developed man yet. The youngest in history to achieve this feat. In fact I can only name 2 other guys in boxing history that became lineal champs at their division in their teen years. One is Canzoneri and the other Pacquiao. I'm pretty sure there may be 1 or 2 more but I'm not sure.
It's a pretty goddamned short list.
Benitez at 17
Pipino Cuevas at 18
Manny at 18
Tony Canzoneri at 19 (though he got a draw at 18 for the bantam crown IIRC)
Lionel Rose at 19
Ben Villaflor at 19
Those guys all won lineal/undisputed crowns
Hiroki Ioka at 18 won the first 105 title if you want to count him.
I think that's it. 135 years of boxing as we now know it and it's been done only 6-7 times.
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Re: Ten extraordinary boxing accomplishments
Quote:
Originally Posted by
marbleheadmaui
Quote:
Originally Posted by
generalbulldog
Wilfredo Benitez beating Cervantes for the lineal 140 crown at 17! He was still a boy and not yet a developed man yet. The youngest in history to achieve this feat. In fact I can only name 2 other guys in boxing history that became lineal champs at their division in their teen years. One is Canzoneri and the other Pacquiao. I'm pretty sure there may be 1 or 2 more but I'm not sure.
It's a pretty goddamned short list.
Benitez at 17
Pipino Cuevas at 18
Manny at 18
Tony Canzoneri at 19 (though he got a draw at 18 for the bantam crown IIRC)
Lionel Rose at 19
Ben Villaflor at 19
Those guys all won lineal/undisputed crowns
Hiroki Ioka at 18 won the first 105 title if you want to count him.
I think that's it. 135 years of boxing as we now know it and it's been done only 6-7 times.
Thanks for this list. I've been racking my brain and started a thread here a year or 2 ago to ask who were also lineal champs in their teen years. And I got Canzoneri was the only answer. It is indeed a very short list. It is extremely rare in boxing history to be the man of the division when your body hasn't fully mature yet!
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Re: Ten extraordinary boxing accomplishments
Quote:
Originally Posted by
generalbulldog
Quote:
Originally Posted by
marbleheadmaui
Quote:
Originally Posted by
generalbulldog
Wilfredo Benitez beating Cervantes for the lineal 140 crown at 17! He was still a boy and not yet a developed man yet. The youngest in history to achieve this feat. In fact I can only name 2 other guys in boxing history that became lineal champs at their division in their teen years. One is Canzoneri and the other Pacquiao. I'm pretty sure there may be 1 or 2 more but I'm not sure.
It's a pretty goddamned short list.
Benitez at 17
Pipino Cuevas at 18
Manny at 18
Tony Canzoneri at 19 (though he got a draw at 18 for the bantam crown IIRC)
Lionel Rose at 19
Ben Villaflor at 19
Those guys all won lineal/undisputed crowns
Hiroki Ioka at 18 won the first 105 title if you want to count him.
I think that's it. 135 years of boxing as we now know it and it's been done only 6-7 times.
Thanks for this list. I've been racking my brain and started a thread here a year or 2 ago to ask who were also lineal champs in their teen years. And I got Canzoneri was the only answer. It is indeed a very short list. It is extremely rare in boxing history to be the man of the division when your body hasn't fully mature yet!
I think it says something else too. When there were eight divisions only Canzoneri did it. The other guys only did it after the sport had been further chopped up into junior/super divisions. Canzoneri in what 1927-28? And then it didn't happen again until the very late 1960's with Rose. Then over only a decade we had Rose, Villaflor, Benitez and Cuevas? That demonstrates something else was going on as well. Of course since the late 1970's just Manny and Hiroka...so maybe my thesis is only half cooked. Hmmmmm.
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Re: Ten extraordinary boxing accomplishments
Quote:
Originally Posted by
marbleheadmaui
Quote:
Originally Posted by
generalbulldog
Quote:
Originally Posted by
marbleheadmaui
Quote:
Originally Posted by
generalbulldog
Wilfredo Benitez beating Cervantes for the lineal 140 crown at 17! He was still a boy and not yet a developed man yet. The youngest in history to achieve this feat. In fact I can only name 2 other guys in boxing history that became lineal champs at their division in their teen years. One is Canzoneri and the other Pacquiao. I'm pretty sure there may be 1 or 2 more but I'm not sure.
It's a pretty goddamned short list.
Benitez at 17
Pipino Cuevas at 18
Manny at 18
Tony Canzoneri at 19 (though he got a draw at 18 for the bantam crown IIRC)
Lionel Rose at 19
Ben Villaflor at 19
Those guys all won lineal/undisputed crowns
Hiroki Ioka at 18 won the first 105 title if you want to count him.
I think that's it. 135 years of boxing as we now know it and it's been done only 6-7 times.
Thanks for this list. I've been racking my brain and started a thread here a year or 2 ago to ask who were also lineal champs in their teen years. And I got Canzoneri was the only answer. It is indeed a very short list. It is extremely rare in boxing history to be the man of the division when your body hasn't fully mature yet!
I think it says something else too. When there were eight divisions only Canzoneri did it. The other guys only did it after the sport had been further chopped up into junior/super divisions. Canzoneri in what 1927-28? And then it didn't happen again until the very late 1960's with Rose. Then over only a decade we had Rose, Villaflor, Benitez and Cuevas? That demonstrates something else was going on as well. Of course since the late 1970's just Manny and Hiroka...so maybe my thesis is only half cooked. Hmmmmm.
To think Manny was the last guy to do it and it has been more than 12 years already since there was a teenage lineal champion. If we're lucky it could very well be another decade before another one comes along.
I have to give it up to your boxing knowledge. Only 9 minutes after I asked a question of who were other teenage lineal champs you came up with a list just like that. An old thread where I asked this question and I only got 1 answer and that was days later after I started the thread.
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Wilfredo Benitez became the youngest World Champ in boxing history at age 17 beating Kid Pambele.
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The way Tyson swept through the mid-late 80's was a miracle for heavyweight boxing and one of it's greatest spectacles ever. The mess that Larry Holmes/IBF had helped to create was finally swept up once Spinks was demolished.
A futile effort in the long run but all the more reason to merit it IMO.
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Re: Ten extraordinary boxing accomplishments
Quote:
Originally Posted by
marbleheadmaui
Quote:
Originally Posted by
porkypara
I know a lot of people will disagree but I think Calzaghe and Marciano's unbeaten record is also a great achevement.
To go your whole carrer and not slip up once when your fighting world class opponents is great IMO even if you dont think they were great fighters or not.
What's great about Marciano's is he wrecked the division. I don't know what to say abolut Calzaghe's. I mean when there is another unbeaten guy in your division and on your continent that you don't fight? How does one even know if Calzaghe was the best 168 within 300 miles?
Marciano fought old men and fighters way past there best.Not his fault because thats all that was about at the time.
Calzaghe was involved in many fights where he was the underdog or 50/50 and he managed to avoid defeat.
Almost all great boxers lose at some point so the fact that Marciano and Calzaghe avoided defeat in almost 50 fights each is great IMO.
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Re: Ten extraordinary boxing accomplishments
Quote:
Originally Posted by
porkypara
Quote:
Originally Posted by
marbleheadmaui
Quote:
Originally Posted by
porkypara
I know a lot of people will disagree but I think Calzaghe and Marciano's unbeaten record is also a great achevement.
To go your whole carrer and not slip up once when your fighting world class opponents is great IMO even if you dont think they were great fighters or not.
What's great about Marciano's is he wrecked the division. I don't know what to say abolut Calzaghe's. I mean when there is another unbeaten guy in your division and on your continent that you don't fight? How does one even know if Calzaghe was the best 168 within 300 miles?
Marciano fought old men and fighters way past there best.Not his fault because thats all that was about at the time.
Calzaghe was involved in many fights where he was the underdog or 50/50 and he managed to avoid defeat.
Almost all great boxers lose at some point so the fact that Marciano and Calzaghe avoided defeat in almost 50 fights each is great IMO.
I'm in the middle here. I believe both Calzaghe and Marciano accomplished great things. Actually, I believe their records are comparable in a way. As to Calzaghe, he is arguably the greatest super middleweight to have graced the ring. It doesn't bother me that he didn't fight Sven Ottke because I have no doubt in my mind that he would have taken Ottke to school with a beating worse than he put on Jeff Lacy. Although he did come over here five years too late, he beat the two fighters at or around his weight that people always questioned him about. I respect that because it's better late than never.
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Re: Ten extraordinary boxing accomplishments
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dark Lord Al
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ross
Quote:
Originally Posted by
marbleheadmaui
Quote:
Originally Posted by
porkypara
I know a lot of people will disagree but I think Calzaghe and Marciano's unbeaten record is also a great achevement.
To go your whole carrer and not slip up once when your fighting world class opponents is great IMO even if you dont think they were great fighters or not.
What's great about Marciano's is he wrecked the division. I don't know what to say abolut Calzaghe's. I mean when there is another unbeaten guy in your division and on your continent that you don't fight? How does one even know if Calzaghe was the best 168 within 300 miles?
Marciano only fought 5 opponents as a champ I think?
Of modern heavies Tyson beating 3 seperate champs to unify and defend the unified championship 7 times is an acheivment.
Chris Eubanks fight schedule between the Benn rematch and the first Collins fight. 6 fights as defending champ in 94. All 12 rounders around the world.
To put Eubank's name in the top ten boxing accomplishments is an insult , firstly he was WBO champion which was the weakest at the time. He wasnt even close to being the best in his division, and his choice of oponants was questionable at best , lots were just club fighters , and he rarely looked good against any of them.
Personally i think PACMAN'S jump from FLY up to JMW and retaining his speed and power is one of the best accomplishments.
Al, sometime it's hard to beleive you are British. Apart from VD you are the most critical person on the forum of British fighters. In this instance I agree with you ;)
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Re: Ten extraordinary boxing accomplishments
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rantcatrat
Quote:
Originally Posted by
porkypara
Quote:
Originally Posted by
marbleheadmaui
Quote:
Originally Posted by
porkypara
I know a lot of people will disagree but I think Calzaghe and Marciano's unbeaten record is also a great achevement.
To go your whole carrer and not slip up once when your fighting world class opponents is great IMO even if you dont think they were great fighters or not.
What's great about Marciano's is he wrecked the division. I don't know what to say abolut Calzaghe's. I mean when there is another unbeaten guy in your division and on your continent that you don't fight? How does one even know if Calzaghe was the best 168 within 300 miles?
Marciano fought old men and fighters way past there best.Not his fault because thats all that was about at the time.
Calzaghe was involved in many fights where he was the underdog or 50/50 and he managed to avoid defeat.
Almost all great boxers lose at some point so the fact that Marciano and Calzaghe avoided defeat in almost 50 fights each is great IMO.
I'm in the middle here. I believe both Calzaghe and Marciano accomplished great things. Actually, I believe their records are comparable in a way.
As to Calzaghe, he is arguably the greatest super middleweight to have graced the ring. It doesn't bother me that he didn't fight Sven Ottke because I have no doubt in my mind that he would have taken Ottke to school with a beating worse than he put on Jeff Lacy. Although he did come over here five years too late, he beat the two fighters at or around his weight that people always questioned him about. I respect that because it's better late than never.
Respectfully, the bold and the mindset it reflects just KILLS me. It is way too common in the current boxing fan. You THINKING a fight outcome is certain is NOT equivalent to an actual victory in the ring. That logic says nobody ever actually has to fight anyone, that we can all just predict and that carries the same weight. Yet if boxing shows us anything? It shows us stunning upsets like Schemling over Louis, Braddock over Baer, Turpin over Robinson, Walcott over Charles, Laing over Duran, Honeyghan over Curry, Douglas over Tyson and on and on and on.
Like I said, Marciano had nobody left to fight, Calzaghe had a guy within 300 miles he never fought.
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Re: Ten extraordinary boxing accomplishments
Quote:
Originally Posted by
marbleheadmaui
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rantcatrat
Quote:
Originally Posted by
porkypara
Quote:
Originally Posted by
marbleheadmaui
Quote:
Originally Posted by
porkypara
I know a lot of people will disagree but I think Calzaghe and Marciano's unbeaten record is also a great achevement.
To go your whole carrer and not slip up once when your fighting world class opponents is great IMO even if you dont think they were great fighters or not.
What's great about Marciano's is he wrecked the division. I don't know what to say abolut Calzaghe's. I mean when there is another unbeaten guy in your division and on your continent that you don't fight? How does one even know if Calzaghe was the best 168 within 300 miles?
Marciano fought old men and fighters way past there best.Not his fault because thats all that was about at the time.
Calzaghe was involved in many fights where he was the underdog or 50/50 and he managed to avoid defeat.
Almost all great boxers lose at some point so the fact that Marciano and Calzaghe avoided defeat in almost 50 fights each is great IMO.
I'm in the middle here. I believe both Calzaghe and Marciano accomplished great things. Actually, I believe their records are comparable in a way.
As to Calzaghe, he is arguably the greatest super middleweight to have graced the ring. It doesn't bother me that he didn't fight Sven Ottke because I have no doubt in my mind that he would have taken Ottke to school with a beating worse than he put on Jeff Lacy. Although he did come over here five years too late, he beat the two fighters at or around his weight that people always questioned him about. I respect that because it's better late than never.
Respectfully, the bold and the mindset it reflects just KILLS me. It is way too common in the current boxing fan. You THINKING a fight outcome is certain is NOT equivalent to an actual victory in the ring. That logic says nobody ever actually has to fight anyone, that we can all just predict and that carries the same weight. Yet if boxing shows us anything? It shows us stunning upsets like Schemling over Louis, Braddock over Baer, Turpin over Robinson, Walcott over Charles, Laing over Duran, Honeyghan over Curry, Douglas over Tyson and on and on and on.
Like I said, Marciano had nobody left to fight, Calzaghe had a guy within 300 miles he never fought.
Thanks goodness, you are here to educate us all ;)
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Re: Ten extraordinary boxing accomplishments
Quote:
Originally Posted by
marbleheadmaui
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rantcatrat
Quote:
Originally Posted by
porkypara
Quote:
Originally Posted by
marbleheadmaui
Quote:
Originally Posted by
porkypara
I know a lot of people will disagree but I think Calzaghe and Marciano's unbeaten record is also a great achevement.
To go your whole carrer and not slip up once when your fighting world class opponents is great IMO even if you dont think they were great fighters or not.
What's great about Marciano's is he wrecked the division. I don't know what to say abolut Calzaghe's. I mean when there is another unbeaten guy in your division and on your continent that you don't fight? How does one even know if Calzaghe was the best 168 within 300 miles?
Marciano fought old men and fighters way past there best.Not his fault because thats all that was about at the time.
Calzaghe was involved in many fights where he was the underdog or 50/50 and he managed to avoid defeat.
Almost all great boxers lose at some point so the fact that Marciano and Calzaghe avoided defeat in almost 50 fights each is great IMO.
I'm in the middle here. I believe both Calzaghe and Marciano accomplished great things. Actually, I believe their records are comparable in a way.
As to Calzaghe, he is arguably the greatest super middleweight to have graced the ring. It doesn't bother me that he didn't fight Sven Ottke because I have no doubt in my mind that he would have taken Ottke to school with a beating worse than he put on Jeff Lacy. Although he did come over here five years too late, he beat the two fighters at or around his weight that people always questioned him about. I respect that because it's better late than never.
Respectfully, the bold and the mindset it reflects just KILLS me. It is way too common in the current boxing fan. You THINKING a fight outcome is certain is NOT equivalent to an actual victory in the ring. That logic says nobody ever actually has to fight anyone, that we can all just predict and that carries the same weight. Yet if boxing shows us anything? It shows us stunning upsets like Schemling over Louis, Braddock over Baer, Turpin over Robinson, Walcott over Charles, Laing over Duran, Honeyghan over Curry, Douglas over Tyson and on and on and on.
Like I said, Marciano had nobody left to fight, Calzaghe had a guy within 300 miles he never fought.
I don't disagree with you about that criticism of Calzaghe. And you make a good point about that mindset, I'll concede. I just was never high on Sven Ottke, less so even than I am on Felix Sturm now. That isn't an excuse for not fighting him though. I guess one thing about Calzaghe is that he fought the next WBA titleholder after Ottke and unified titles when he beat an undefeated Kessler. But, I'll agree not fighting Sven Ottke is a blemish on his record.
Wasn't there criticism of Rocky Marciano not fighting Floyd Patterson or am I wrong on that one?
You must not think highly of Floyd's undefeated record either then I assume because he hasn't fought 5 eligible welterweights over the past 5 years that he should have fought.
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Re: Ten extraordinary boxing accomplishments
Quote:
Originally Posted by
marbleheadmaui
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rantcatrat
Quote:
Originally Posted by
porkypara
Quote:
Originally Posted by
marbleheadmaui
Quote:
Originally Posted by
porkypara
I know a lot of people will disagree but I think Calzaghe and Marciano's unbeaten record is also a great achevement.
To go your whole carrer and not slip up once when your fighting world class opponents is great IMO even if you dont think they were great fighters or not.
What's great about Marciano's is he wrecked the division. I don't know what to say abolut Calzaghe's. I mean when there is another unbeaten guy in your division and on your continent that you don't fight? How does one even know if Calzaghe was the best 168 within 300 miles?
Marciano fought old men and fighters way past there best.Not his fault because thats all that was about at the time.
Calzaghe was involved in many fights where he was the underdog or 50/50 and he managed to avoid defeat.
Almost all great boxers lose at some point so the fact that Marciano and Calzaghe avoided defeat in almost 50 fights each is great IMO.
I'm in the middle here. I believe both Calzaghe and Marciano accomplished great things. Actually, I believe their records are comparable in a way.
As to Calzaghe, he is arguably the greatest super middleweight to have graced the ring. It doesn't bother me that he didn't fight Sven Ottke because I have no doubt in my mind that he would have taken Ottke to school with a beating worse than he put on Jeff Lacy. Although he did come over here five years too late, he beat the two fighters at or around his weight that people always questioned him about. I respect that because it's better late than never.
Respectfully, the bold and the mindset it reflects just KILLS me. It is way too common in the current boxing fan. You THINKING a fight outcome is certain is NOT equivalent to an actual victory in the ring. That logic says nobody ever actually has to fight anyone, that we can all just predict and that carries the same weight. Yet if boxing shows us anything? It shows us stunning upsets like Schemling over Louis, Braddock over Baer, Turpin over Robinson, Walcott over Charles, Laing over Duran, Honeyghan over Curry, Douglas over Tyson and on and on and on.
Like I said, Marciano had nobody left to fight, Calzaghe had a guy within 300 miles he never fought.
Who is this great fighter you speak of????
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Re: Ten extraordinary boxing accomplishments
If you actually look at who was fighting in the SMW at a time when fight could've been made, I think you will find that (good or bad) he fought everybody available. e.g Hopkins was fighting at 160, Jones was at 175, you can go on and on with this list. The only person at SMW he didn't face was Sven Ottke. Ottke only fought in Germany and JC would've been very foolish to take that fight in Germany as Robin Reid found out.
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Re: Ten extraordinary boxing accomplishments
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BIG H
If you actually look at who was fighting in the SMW at a time when fight could've been made, I think you will find that (good or bad) he fought everybody available. e.g Hopkins was fighting at 160, Jones was at 175, you can go on and on with this list. The only person at SMW he didn't face was Sven Ottke. Ottke only fought in Germany and JC would've been very foolish to take that fight in Germany as Robin Reid found out.
Correct.
The only reason Reid took the fight in Germany was he did not have to many options where as Calazaghe had many as long as he could stay injury free.
Only desprate or foolish men would go and fight Ottke in Germany.
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Re: Ten extraordinary boxing accomplishments
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rantcatrat
Quote:
Originally Posted by
marbleheadmaui
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rantcatrat
Quote:
Originally Posted by
porkypara
Quote:
Originally Posted by
marbleheadmaui
Quote:
Originally Posted by
porkypara
I know a lot of people will disagree but I think Calzaghe and Marciano's unbeaten record is also a great achevement.
To go your whole carrer and not slip up once when your fighting world class opponents is great IMO even if you dont think they were great fighters or not.
What's great about Marciano's is he wrecked the division. I don't know what to say abolut Calzaghe's. I mean when there is another unbeaten guy in your division and on your continent that you don't fight? How does one even know if Calzaghe was the best 168 within 300 miles?
Marciano fought old men and fighters way past there best.Not his fault because thats all that was about at the time.
Calzaghe was involved in many fights where he was the underdog or 50/50 and he managed to avoid defeat.
Almost all great boxers lose at some point so the fact that Marciano and Calzaghe avoided defeat in almost 50 fights each is great IMO.
I'm in the middle here. I believe both Calzaghe and Marciano accomplished great things. Actually, I believe their records are comparable in a way.
As to Calzaghe, he is arguably the greatest super middleweight to have graced the ring. It doesn't bother me that he didn't fight Sven Ottke because I have no doubt in my mind that he would have taken Ottke to school with a beating worse than he put on Jeff Lacy. Although he did come over here five years too late, he beat the two fighters at or around his weight that people always questioned him about. I respect that because it's better late than never.
Respectfully, the bold and the mindset it reflects just KILLS me. It is way too common in the current boxing fan. You THINKING a fight outcome is certain is NOT equivalent to an actual victory in the ring. That logic says nobody ever actually has to fight anyone, that we can all just predict and that carries the same weight. Yet if boxing shows us anything? It shows us stunning upsets like Schemling over Louis, Braddock over Baer, Turpin over Robinson, Walcott over Charles, Laing over Duran, Honeyghan over Curry, Douglas over Tyson and on and on and on.
Like I said, Marciano had nobody left to fight, Calzaghe had a guy within 300 miles he never fought.
I don't disagree with you about that criticism of Calzaghe. And you make a good point about that mindset, I'll concede. I just was never high on Sven Ottke, less so even than I am on Felix Sturm now. That isn't an excuse for not fighting him though. I guess one thing about Calzaghe is that he fought the next WBA titleholder after Ottke and unified titles when he beat an undefeated Kessler. But, I'll agree not fighting Sven Ottke is a blemish on his record.
Wasn't there criticism of Rocky Marciano not fighting Floyd Patterson or am I wrong on that one?
You must not think highly of Floyd's undefeated record either then I assume because he hasn't fought 5 eligible welterweights over the past 5 years that he should have fought.
When Marciano retired, Patterson was fighting journeymen and still coming along. I think the criticism is Marciano retired before he had to (he was 33) and had he stayed another year or so Patterson was the next challenge.
I don't think much of ANYONE's unbeaten record just because they are unbeaten. It is all about who you fight. THAT is what puts a record in context. There is a list of about 8-9 guys I wish Floyd had fought instead of 8-9 guys he actually fought. He is a great fighter. But he hasn't accomplished anywhere close to what I think he could have.
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Re: Ten extraordinary boxing accomplishments
Quote:
Originally Posted by
porkypara
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BIG H
If you actually look at who was fighting in the SMW at a time when fight could've been made, I think you will find that (good or bad) he fought everybody available. e.g Hopkins was fighting at 160, Jones was at 175, you can go on and on with this list. The only person at SMW he didn't face was Sven Ottke. Ottke only fought in Germany and JC would've been very foolish to take that fight in Germany as Robin Reid found out.
Correct.
The only reason Reid took the fight in Germany was he did not have to many options where as Calazaghe had many as long as he could stay injury free.
Only desprate or foolish men would go and fight Ottke in Germany.
None of this is right. Calzaghe didn't fight Frankie Liles or Thomas Tate or Stevie Collins or Ottke or Antwun Echols who were all top five ranked guys for several years at 168 while Calzaghe was there.
I grew up where champions wanted to be CHAMPIONS as in the only one. Had somebody besides Marvin Hagler been claiming to be middleweight king you know what Hagler would have said?
Your brother can be the ref, your parents can be the judges and we'll fight in front of all your relatives in your backyard...now put'em up!
This idea that it's ok to avoid the other guy because he might get hometown cooking is a horrendous one. Look at how men like Arguello and Azumah and Dick Tiger and Lopez and Pedroza and other greats went over and over again onto the other guy's home turf. Great fighters SEEK OUT the great challenges. They don't find excuses for not taking them.
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Re: Ten extraordinary boxing accomplishments
Quote:
Originally Posted by
marbleheadmaui
None of this is right. Calzaghe didn't fight Frankie Liles or Thomas Tate or Stevie Collins or Ottke or Antwun Echols who were all top five ranked guys for several years at 168 while Calzaghe was there.
I grew up where champions wanted to be CHAMPIONS as in the only one. Had somebody besides Marvin Hagler been claiming to be middleweight king you know what Hagler would have said?
Your brother can be the ref, your parents can be the judges and we'll fight in front of all your relatives in your backyard...now put'em up!
This idea that it's ok to avoid the other guy because he might get hometown cooking is a horrendous one. Look at how men like Arguello and Azumah and Dick Tiger and Lopez and Pedroza and other greats went over and over again onto the other guy's home turf. Great fighters SEEK OUT the great challenges. They don't find excuses for not taking them.
Do you follow boxing?
Collins was due to defend his title against Calzaghe but pulled out and retired rather than take a beating. He was knocked out in sparring leading up to it by Howard Eastman.
It was on a bill titled "the full monty" which was the same night as my first bout. Eubank was due to fight Mark Prince at light heavy but had the balls to take the fight for the vacant title and drop the extra weight on just over a weeks notice.
Calzaghe stayed the course and after 11 years as a defending champion he fights and dominates the young, undefeated, unified Kessler who has gone on to prove himself against Froch.
Oh, also, Echols was a middle!?
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Re: Ten extraordinary boxing accomplishments
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ross
Quote:
Originally Posted by
marbleheadmaui
None of this is right. Calzaghe didn't fight Frankie Liles or Thomas Tate or Stevie Collins or Ottke or Antwun Echols who were all top five ranked guys for several years at 168 while Calzaghe was there.
I grew up where champions wanted to be CHAMPIONS as in the only one. Had somebody besides Marvin Hagler been claiming to be middleweight king you know what Hagler would have said?
Your brother can be the ref, your parents can be the judges and we'll fight in front of all your relatives in your backyard...now put'em up!
This idea that it's ok to avoid the other guy because he might get hometown cooking is a horrendous one. Look at how men like Arguello and Azumah and Dick Tiger and Lopez and Pedroza and other greats went over and over again onto the other guy's home turf. Great fighters SEEK OUT the great challenges. They don't find excuses for not taking them.
Do you follow boxing?
Collins was due to defend his title against Calzaghe but pulled out and retired rather than take a beating. He was knocked out in sparring leading up to it by Howard Eastman.
It was on a bill titled "the full monty" which was the same night as my first bout. Eubank was due to fight Mark Prince at light heavy but had the balls to take the fight for the vacant title and drop the extra weight on just over a weeks notice.
Calzaghe stayed the course and after 11 years as a defending champion he fights and dominates the young, undefeated, unified Kessler who has gone on to prove himself against Froch.
Oh, also, Echols was a middle!?
Echols was a top five ranked 168 from 2001-2004. Thanks for the Stevie Collins correction. The rest of the point remains.
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Re: Ten extraordinary boxing accomplishments
Quote:
Originally Posted by
marbleheadmaui
Quote:
Originally Posted by
porkypara
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BIG H
If you actually look at who was fighting in the SMW at a time when fight could've been made, I think you will find that (good or bad) he fought everybody available. e.g Hopkins was fighting at 160, Jones was at 175, you can go on and on with this list. The only person at SMW he didn't face was Sven Ottke. Ottke only fought in Germany and JC would've been very foolish to take that fight in Germany as Robin Reid found out.
Correct.
The only reason Reid took the fight in Germany was he did not have to many options where as Calazaghe had many as long as he could stay injury free.
Only desprate or foolish men would go and fight Ottke in Germany.
None of this is right. Calzaghe didn't fight Frankie Liles or Thomas Tate or Stevie Collins or Ottke or Antwun Echols who were all top five ranked guys for several years at 168 while Calzaghe was there.
I grew up where champions wanted to be CHAMPIONS as in the only one. Had somebody besides Marvin Hagler been claiming to be middleweight king you know what Hagler would have said?
Your brother can be the ref, your parents can be the judges and we'll fight in front of all your relatives in your backyard...now put'em up!
This idea that it's ok to avoid the other guy because he might get hometown cooking is a horrendous one. Look at how men like Arguello and Azumah and Dick Tiger and Lopez and Pedroza and other greats went over and over again onto the other guy's home turf. Great fighters SEEK OUT the great challenges. They don't find excuses for not taking them.
Calzaghe always get slated for not going away to fight. It works both ways. Did Jones go and fight Michaelczewski, did Toney or Nunn come and fight Benn or Eubank?? I'm not saying they should have, but it works both ways!
As for the list of fighters he should've fought and didn't, you are really scraping the barrel. Do you think beating any one of those (except Collins, who didn't want to fight JC) would've enhanced JC's legacy :confused:
Steve Collins retired in 1997 coz he didn't fancy facing JC. He was due to face Calzaghe and pulled out after getting beaten up by juniors in the gym, leaving Eubanks to step in!
Antwun Echols - Which belt did he have the Calzaghe needed to take and what claim did he ever have to being 'SMW King' that would make Calzaghe need to fight him? His claim to fame was beating Charles Brewer, who almost had him out of there inside 2 rounds.
Thomas Tate - You are really clutching at straws here. What did he ever do that made him more worthy of an opponent than the gys Calzaghe was fighting arounfd that time. Eubank, Reid, Brewer, Veit, Woodhall, Mitchell- all more worthy than tate imo. I can't think of a single fighter of note that he beat?
Frankie Liles - Liles was in his twighlight by the time JC was champion, I guess he could've fought him circa 98, but Byron Mitchell did the job for him and JC Subsequently spanked him inside 5 minutes
As for fighting in another fighters back yard, I was specifically referring to Sven Ottke's 'Back Yard' which I think you would have to agree is a bit of an exceptional case in terms of bias!!
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Re: Ten extraordinary boxing accomplishments
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BIG H
Quote:
Originally Posted by
marbleheadmaui
Quote:
Originally Posted by
porkypara
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BIG H
If you actually look at who was fighting in the SMW at a time when fight could've been made, I think you will find that (good or bad) he fought everybody available. e.g Hopkins was fighting at 160, Jones was at 175, you can go on and on with this list. The only person at SMW he didn't face was Sven Ottke. Ottke only fought in Germany and JC would've been very foolish to take that fight in Germany as Robin Reid found out.
Correct.
The only reason Reid took the fight in Germany was he did not have to many options where as Calazaghe had many as long as he could stay injury free.
Only desprate or foolish men would go and fight Ottke in Germany.
None of this is right. Calzaghe didn't fight Frankie Liles or Thomas Tate or Stevie Collins or Ottke or Antwun Echols who were all top five ranked guys for several years at 168 while Calzaghe was there.
I grew up where champions wanted to be CHAMPIONS as in the only one. Had somebody besides Marvin Hagler been claiming to be middleweight king you know what Hagler would have said?
Your brother can be the ref, your parents can be the judges and we'll fight in front of all your relatives in your backyard...now put'em up!
This idea that it's ok to avoid the other guy because he might get hometown cooking is a horrendous one. Look at how men like Arguello and Azumah and Dick Tiger and Lopez and Pedroza and other greats went over and over again onto the other guy's home turf. Great fighters SEEK OUT the great challenges. They don't find excuses for not taking them.
Calzaghe always get slated for not going away to fight. It works both ways. Did Jones go and fight Michaelczewski, did Toney or Nunn come and fight Benn or Eubank?? I'm not saying they should have, but it works both ways!
As for the list of fighters he should've fought and didn't, you are really scraping the barrel. Do you think beating any one of those (except Collins, who didn't want to fight JC) would've enhanced JC's legacy :confused:
Steve Collins retired in 1997 coz he didn't fancy facing JC. He was due to face Calzaghe and pulled out after getting beaten up by juniors in the gym, leaving Eubanks to step in!
Antwun Echols - Which belt did he have the Calzaghe needed to take and what claim did he ever have to being 'SMW King' that would make Calzaghe need to fight him? His claim to fame was beating Charles Brewer, who almost had him out of there inside 2 rounds.
Thomas Tate - You are really clutching at straws here. What did he ever do that made him more worthy of an opponent than the gys Calzaghe was fighting arounfd that time. Eubank, Reid, Brewer, Veit, Woodhall, Mitchell- all more worthy than tate imo. I can't think of a single fighter of note that he beat?
Frankie Liles - Liles was in his twighlight by the time JC was champion, I guess he could've fought him circa 98, but Byron Mitchell did the job for him and JC Subsequently spanked him inside 5 minutes
As for fighting in another fighters back yard, I was specifically referring to Sven Ottke's 'Back Yard' which I think you would have to agree is a bit of an exceptional case in terms of bias!!
Roy Jones is ABSOLUTELY as guilty as Calzaghe of not fighting guys like Darius and Liles and Benn and Eubank etc. But he gets a little slack in that he destroyed a prime James Toney!
Both men's legacies would have been enhanced by choosing the other strapholders and determining a real champion.
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Re: Ten extraordinary boxing accomplishments
George Foreman winning heavyweight title in his 40's, and 20 years after he lost it.
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Re: Ten extraordinary boxing accomplishments
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
George Foreman winning heavyweight title in his 40's, and 20 years after he lost it.
How in HELL did I leave that out?
[banging head on desk]
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Re: Ten extraordinary boxing accomplishments
Burns fighting Johnson and breaking the colour barrier and being shit on by that racist authour Jack London deserves honourable mention.
