Want to Learn what to look for in Succesful Boxers

Saddoboxing Forum Members,

I want to get caught up on some great fighters so that when I examine current fighters I know what to better look for. What are some great fights I can watch to gain perspective? Big open-ended question, I know, but I feel like a lot of you know boxing history a lot better than I do, and would give good advice. Also, although I have boxed a few times in the gym, what are the kinds of things I shoud look for in a fighter to know that they are technically sound or have high level skills? I feel like just watching the videos of fighters doesn't do much unless I know what to look for. What I mean is like what is good footwork? Correct ways to throw punches? Good defensive posture? Switching from offensive to defensive without losing a moment. I hear that "squaring up" is bad, and fighting from angles is better. Those kinds of things. What do those phrases really mean? Maybe there is a good book on it you guys recommend? I know this is open-ended so any advice would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Your brother from another mother

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Originally Posted by Rantcatrat

Saddoboxing Forum Members,

I want to get caught up on some great fighters so that when I examine current fighters I know what to better look for. What are some great fights I can watch to gain perspective? Big open-ended question, I know, but I feel like a lot of you know boxing history a lot better than I do, and would give good advice. Also, although I have boxed a few times in the gym, what are the kinds of things I shoud look for in a fighter to know that they are technically sound or have high level skills? I feel like just watching the videos of fighters doesn't do much unless I know what to look for. What I mean is like what is good footwork? Correct ways to throw punches? Good defensive posture? Switching from offensive to defensive without losing a moment. I hear that "squaring up" is bad, and fighting from angles is better. Those kinds of things. What do those phrases really mean? Maybe there is a good book on it you guys recommend? I know this is open-ended so any advice would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Your brother from another mother

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WOW! is THAT a long answer. Here is what I look for in analyzing the quality of a fight (in no order).

1. The battle for distance. With two well taught fighters? This battle is for INCHES and they stay close to optimal punching distance all night long without clinching much. In a lower level fight, guys go from being outside punching distance to diving in and clinching. They don't recognize and can't obtain the right distance.
2, Fighting in arcs. What I mean by this is when engaging, men are still fighting across one another and changing angles relative to one another. In lower level fights men go back and forth in straight lines when engaging and only circle when out of punching range or not punching at all.

As for your other questions I'm going to answer them al;ong with a video example of each, but it's gonna take some time.

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Originally Posted by Rantcatrat

Saddoboxing Forum Members,

I want to get caught up on some great fighters so that when I examine current fighters I know what to better look for. What are some great fights I can watch to gain perspective? Big open-ended question, I know, but I feel like a lot of you know boxing history a lot better than I do, and would give good advice. Also, although I have boxed a few times in the gym, what are the kinds of things I shoud look for in a fighter to know that they are technically sound or have high level skills? I feel like just watching the videos of fighters doesn't do much unless I know what to look for. What I mean is like what is good footwork? Correct ways to throw punches? Good defensive posture? Switching from offensive to defensive without losing a moment. I hear that "squaring up" is bad, and fighting from angles is better. Those kinds of things. What do those phrases really mean? Maybe there is a good book on it you guys recommend? I know this is open-ended so any advice would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Your brother from another mother

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Id say Morales, Barrera and Matquez are a good start.

I would break it down by segregating fighters by style. You're going to get varied opinions about which techniques apply.

OK you asked what to look for in a technically sound fighter. The most obvious recent example of a classic style of the highest level is Ricardo Lopez. Simply a technical master. It's easy BTW to look good against a stiff. The question is can one execute against a real challenge?

What to look for in the following video

1. Who is controlling distance, Lopez or Sorjaturong (who was a GREAT fighter BTW)
2. Who is initiating the action and location of the action?
3. Watch how Lopez steps (small step) with every punch.
4. Watch how Lopez changes the height of his head regularly to make it harder to hit.
5. Watch how Lopez is CONSTANTLY changing his angle relative to Sorjaturong, he is almost never head to head and stationary there.
6. Is Lopez ever off balance?
7. Lopez's jab and cross are straight and his hooks are short
8. His chin is tucked behind his left shoulder and hard to get to
9. He punches in combination and steps with each punch.
10. Lopez finishes each punch on his toes, maximizing torque and power.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FuymSM64vEA

Good footwork has several elements (in no order)

1. To move forward (for orthodox fighter) push off back foot and step with front (short step), to move to right, push off left foot and step with right (short step) and so on.
2. Be on the toes of both feet at all times but with more weight on back foot until one punches, then weight shifts to power the shot.
3. Do NOT move in straight lines, move in arcs when enagaging. It makes one far less predictable.
4. Move the MINIMUM necessary to accomplish the immediate objective. It takes less energy and keeps one in punching range.
5. Do NOT cross your feet unless well out of range.
6. Stance at every moment in time should enable one to move in any direction and stay on balance.

Danny Little Red Lopez is a great teaching tool regarding footwork for two reasons. He used excellent technique and he was SLOW so it is pretty easy to see.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_jIZECgk9E

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Originally Posted by marbleheadmaui

OK you asked what to look for in a technically sound fighter. The most obvious recent example of a classic style of the highest level is Ricardo Lopez. Simply a technical master. It's easy BTW to look good against a stiff. The question is can one execute against a real challenge?

What to look for in the following video

1. Who is controlling distance, Lopez or Sorjaturong (who was a GREAT fighter BTW)
2. Who is initiating the action and location of the action?
3. Watch how Lopez steps (small step) with every punch. Are small steps always good? Is it not good to take big steps? When is it good to take big steps? Are your feet supposed to be always shoulder length apart?
4. Watch how Lopez changes the height of his head regularly to make it harder to hit. That is a good example of head movement? Head movement can be beat by timing and reflexives right?
5. Watch how Lopez is CONSTANTLY changing his angle relative to Sorjaturong, he is almost never head to head and stationary there.
6. Is Lopez ever off balance?
7. Lopez's jab and cross are straight and his hooks are short Short punches are always better right? Don't want to push punches or, the opposite, extend too much?
8. His chin is tucked behind his left shoulder and hard to get to Saw that.
9. He punches in combination and steps with each punch.
10. Lopez finishes each punch on his toes, maximizing torque and power. So, being flat footed doesn't get you as much power?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FuymSM64vEA

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THANKS so much. I was planning on sending you a private message, but thought the discussion may be better in public for everyone. I appreciate it. I had a couple questions in bold next to your points.

The correct way to throw punches. (in no order)

1. Don't throw unless in range or unless setting range with jab
2. Jab should be thrown sharply in a straight line from shoulder with a quick forward step or a flexed front knee and should return along the same line immediately.
3. A straight right or cross starts with a quick forward step , a pivoting of the hips so they become square to the foe, a shifting of the weight onto the front foot and a straight from the shoulder thrust so that at impact one is looking down the barrel of a gun. At impact one should rotate the wrist to maximize impact.
4. Hooks are thrown with the hips, not the arms. It is all about torque and shifting weight. They also must be SHORT with the elbow high. Uppercuts are the same on a different plane.

In short? Do what Alexis Arguello does.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_6--AQfV1Q

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Originally Posted by Rantcatrat

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Originally Posted by marbleheadmaui

OK you asked what to look for in a technically sound fighter. The most obvious recent example of a classic style of the highest level is Ricardo Lopez. Simply a technical master. It's easy BTW to look good against a stiff. The question is can one execute against a real challenge?

What to look for in the following video

1. Who is controlling distance, Lopez or Sorjaturong (who was a GREAT fighter BTW)
2. Who is initiating the action and location of the action?
3. Watch how Lopez steps (small step) with every punch. Are small steps always good? Is it not good to take big steps? When is it good to take big steps? Are your feet supposed to be always shoulder length apart?
4. Watch how Lopez changes the height of his head regularly to make it harder to hit. That is a good example of head movement? Head movement can be beat by timing and reflexives right?
5. Watch how Lopez is CONSTANTLY changing his angle relative to Sorjaturong, he is almost never head to head and stationary there.
6. Is Lopez ever off balance?
7. Lopez's jab and cross are straight and his hooks are short Short punches are always better right? Don't want to push punches or, the opposite, extend too much?
8. His chin is tucked behind his left shoulder and hard to get to Saw that.
9. He punches in combination and steps with each punch.
10. Lopez finishes each punch on his toes, maximizing torque and power. So, being flat footed doesn't get you as much power?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FuymSM64vEA

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THANKS so much. I was planning on sending you a private message, but thought the discussion may be better in public for everyone. I appreciate it. I had a couple questions in bold next to your points.

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1. Big steps are almost NEVER good. The reason is they often don't leave one with anyplace else to go and they take longer. That split second of longer time gives the other guy time to move, punch etc. Shoulder width (more or less) is always a good idea because you can go in any direction from there. Now as you step you'll get a little wider and as you bring your back foot tou'll close up to that again. But keep'em short!
2. There are more extreme examples of head movement than Lopez and yes it can be reflex driven...but what happens when your reflexes go? You are better off always moving your head so you get used to it and not relying on reflexes.
3. What you want is for your punches to land at the point of maximum power. THAT is one reason why distance control is so important. In general straight is better than looping and hooks and uppercuts need to be tight and not reaching.
4. There is a difference between being flat-footed and "sitting down" on one's punches. If you are truly flat footed, you can't rotate your hips to maximize power and it's harder to step to a new angle for the next punch so the guy doesn't know where it is coming from. "Sitting down" means essentailly doing two things, lowering your center of gravity just a bit (so you do sacrifice a little mobility for more power) and really grabbing the canvas with your toes to use it to turn.

Good defensive posture (in no order)

1. Head canted slightly and angled slightly. Head straight up and even between shoulders is bad news.
2. Weight mostly on back foot keeping head far from foes punches. On both toes so able to move in any direction. Left shoulder should be slightly higher than right (orthodox)
3. Hands held high, left protecting chin.
4. Feet roughly shoulder width apart

Oh hell watch Floyd Mayweather, James Toney or BHOP on this one.

Transitioning from defense to offense. This one is near magic. What I mean is this isn't just physical but it requires proper physical technique. One must have impeccable balance, have one's hands in the right spot and maybe most importantly be at the right distance to act quickly. But what this really requires is a sublime understanding of what is happening in the ring, what your opponent is doing, anticipating what he will do next and acting BEFORE he does it. This is mostly a mental element.

Few have ever done it better than Salvador Sanchez.





http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSyi5U6ZwRw&playnext=1&list=PLDA7031D3468C FAAB

Squaring up and fighting from angles.

Squaring up means presenting your chest to the other guy. Bad news because it gives him the biggest possible target and it means your hips have already rotated taking your power. Bad news.

Fighting from angles means not standing head to head with the other guy. If you saw the Cotto-Manny P. fight remember how Manny was standing off to Cotto's side when landing punches? THAT is what fighting from angles means.

The simple way to understand this is if i stant head to head with you and don't move? You know two things. Where every punch is coming from and where I am to hit me. If after I throw a 1-2 I step six inches to my right? Now a) you have to find me again to hit me as my head is now opposite your lwft shoulder and b) my punches from both hands are going to come from different places and you have to find those too to avoid them.

Just little side steps between punches and everything changes. Few have ever done this better than Roberto Duran.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fxiNyDp2jo

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Originally Posted by marbleheadmaui

Good footwork has several elements (in no order)

1. To move forward (for orthodox fighter) push off back foot and step with front (short step), to move to right, push off left foot and step with right (short step) and so on.
2. Be on the toes of both feet at all times but with more weight on back foot until one punches, then weight shifts to power the shot.
3. Do NOT move in straight lines, move in arcs when enagaging. It makes one far less predictable. Explain this point a little if you dont' mind.
4. Move the MINIMUM necessary to accomplish the immediate objective. It takes less energy and keeps one in punching range.
5. Do NOT cross your feet unless well out of range.
6. Stance at every moment in time should enable one to move in any direction and stay on balance.

Danny Little Red Lopez is a great teaching tool regarding footwork for two reasons. He used excellent technique and he was SLOW so it is pretty easy to see.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_jIZECgk9E

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Feet should be shoulder length apart?

A guy named Monte Cox has assembled some great videos interspersed with things to look for. Here's one on Joe Louis

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R78hdxpRfws

:bowdown::bowdown::goodpost::bowdown::goodpost:

A lot to think about. Thanks so much again.

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Originally Posted by Rantcatrat

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Originally Posted by marbleheadmaui

Good footwork has several elements (in no order)

1. To move forward (for orthodox fighter) push off back foot and step with front (short step), to move to right, push off left foot and step with right (short step) and so on.
2. Be on the toes of both feet at all times but with more weight on back foot until one punches, then weight shifts to power the shot.
3. Do NOT move in straight lines, move in arcs when enagaging. It makes one far less predictable. Explain this point a little if you dont' mind.
4. Move the MINIMUM necessary to accomplish the immediate objective. It takes less energy and keeps one in punching range.
5. Do NOT cross your feet unless well out of range.
6. Stance at every moment in time should enable one to move in any direction and stay on balance.

Danny Little Red Lopez is a great teaching tool regarding footwork for two reasons. He used excellent technique and he was SLOW so it is pretty easy to see.

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Feet should be shoulder length apart?

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More or less. To some degree it's a comfort issue. The key is to be able to move in any direction at any time without losing balance or the ability to punch.

As far as "fighting in arcs go" here's what I mean. If you saw the Berto-Ortiz fight when they were enaging it looked like a fencing match. Just moving back and forth on the same line. No lateral movement. it makes one extremely predictable. By fighting in an arc I mean you don't want your head opposite the other guys head in a straight line very often. You want your had changing it's position relative to the other guys head. Sometimes opposite his right shoulder, sometimes oppsite his left shoulder, sometimes outside each and always changing. Does that make sense? it makes one harder to find and tougher to figure where the punches are coming from.

Here's an exxagerated example that really speaks only to the offensive element. It is the very end of the Marciano-Louis fight. Watch how Marciano's feet are ALWAYS moving and how his head keeps popping up in different places around Louis' body. Left shoulder, right shoulder, way outside etc. Rocky is doing a gazillion things technically wrong in this 30 seconds, but he is fighting in arcs and it lets him dictate the action and every punch he throws at Louis is coming from a different direction than the last one did.

Here's the Marciano video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P__xBqPtDbQ

Just watch the following fighters;

Ricardo Lopez & Alexis Arguello fight.

Mike McCallum, good balance, jab, body work, poise, experience, calmness, chin, intelligence and will.

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Originally Posted by Master

Mike McCallum, good balance, jab, body work, poise, experience, calmness, chin, intelligence and will.

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And one hell of a nice man.

Not terribly keen on technique translating to how to produce great boxer but have process when viewing fights and different fighters. I used to just block top half of screen off, cover it so bottom half is visible only and re watch. I know, 'just watch the feet' but after a while you get a different perspective on how a guy sets up, when he is shifting offense and defense and more so combining the two. Gives bigger picture on punch selection and patterns. Footwork, feints set the table. Odd maybe, yeh. You see them thinking off the feet :cwm13:.

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Originally Posted by Spicoli

Not terribly keen on technique translating to how to produce great boxer but have process when viewing fights and different fighters. I used to just block top half of screen off, cover it so bottom half is visible only and re watch. I know, 'just watch the feet' but after a while you get a different perspective on how a guy sets up, when he is shifting offense and defense and more so combining the two. Gives bigger picture on punch selection and patterns. Footwork, feints set the table. Odd maybe, yeh. You see them thinking off the feet :cwm13:.

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I do that as well.

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Originally Posted by Spicoli

Not terribly keen on technique translating to how to produce great boxer but have process when viewing fights and different fighters. I used to just block top half of screen off, cover it so bottom half is visible only and re watch. I know, 'just watch the feet' but after a while you get a different perspective on how a guy sets up, when he is shifting offense and defense and more so combining the two. Gives bigger picture on punch selection and patterns. Footwork, feints set the table. Odd maybe, yeh. You see them thinking off the feet :cwm13:.

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That's a GREAT discipline. Of the physical part of boxing, more than half takes place below the waist.

You've also identified a part of boxing I love. THINKING along with a fighter.