Ali v Liston

Bank holiday watching Patterson v Liston v Ali which was interesting.

In the second Patterson v Liston fight, Floyd was only a cruiser weight against Liston's 15+ stone wight. Ali also came into the ring and acknowledged Patterson but walked away before he should have gone to Liston and was playing up to the crowd. Even after the fight Ali was saying he would beat the ugly bear and that the fight was a disgrace.

I like the way they introduced fighters to come into the ring like Louis, Rocky and the great Sugar Ray Robinson, who looked the coolest man on the planet. Even Ali bowed down to him

During Ali v Liston, the 3rd was awesome, Clay backing up and stunning Liston causing a welt under Sonny's eye. He also came back in the round and gave it his all, slowing down Ali, who took big body shots.

In the 5th Ali could not see and it was all Listons round as Ali was surviving, Liston could not land the bombs to finish Ali.

I've always wondered what would have happened had Ali and Liston had their rematch in late '64 when it was originally scheduled. By all accounts Liston trained harder than he had in years for that rematch only for Ali to need a hernia operation in the weeks leading up. It got rescheduled for the May and Liston couldn't motivate himself to train that hard for a 2nd time, particularly at his age. I still think Ali would have won, but I don't think it'd have gone down the way it did when they actually had their rematch

Yes heard the same thing, Ali really must have pushed his training to get a hernia.

Foreman was cut and had his fight delayed with Ali, that may have helped Ali get in better condition in Zaire.

Nice post. I too think they oughtta bring champions who are in the building into the ring before the main event. I'd also like to see fighters glove up in the ring after the actual oppoenent has examined the wraps. Those two things could happen at the same time.

There continues to be talk about the first fight being fixed. I've watched that fight a dozen times and I just don't see it. Liston was all marked up and he was throwing bombs while Ali was blind. He was just in there with an athlete from another planet.

Poor Floyd. He couldda fought Sonny a hundred times and never made it out of the third round.

Ali and Liston was when the modern 200+ pound HW era started and Floyd was the last HW champ to be under 200 pounds. In other words this was just the changing of the guard. Or should I say HW?

Floyd was the second, or maybe third, worst hW champ of all time, ahead of only Johannsson for sure. Maybe he was better than Marvin Hart (lost to Burns), but I don't know much about him.

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Originally Posted by generalbulldog

Ali and Liston was when the modern 200+ pound HW era started and Floyd was the last HW champ to be under 200 pounds. In other words this was just the changing of the guard. Or should I say HW?

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He wasn't just short, his reach was only like 70 inches.

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Originally Posted by greynotsoold

Floyd was the second, or maybe third, worst hW champ of all time, ahead of only Johannsson for sure. Maybe he was better than Marvin Hart (lost to Burns), but I don't know much about him.

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I'd argue he was better than Braddock or Primo Carnera or .......geeze am I out of names already?

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Originally Posted by greynotsoold

Floyd was the second, or maybe third, worst hW champ of all time, ahead of only Johannsson for sure. Maybe he was better than Marvin Hart (lost to Burns), but I don't know much about him.

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After Marciano retired in 1955, Patterson fought in a World Heavyweight Title eliminator against Tommy Jackson, after winning that fight by a SD, Patterson knocked out Archie Moore in the 5th round to win Marciano's vacated World Heavyweight Title in 1956. Patterson was far from great as a HW champion, but I wouldn't call him one of the worst, I give him credit for persevering and being persistent.
As for Patterson's 2 fights with both Liston and Ali, he basically just got bitch slapped by both bigger, stronger, and in Ali's case, more talented men.

In re: the 2 Liston vs. Ali fights, the first fight was legit, in the 2nd fight, it was either a mob fix, or Liston just decided to quit, the punch Ali hit Liston with to stop the 2nd fight, couldn't have crushed a grape.

Ali vs. Liston II - full fight:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIY9T8zFjAI

In that fight Liston still wanted to fight Ali, if he wanted to give up he would have stayed down for longer than the 10 count. He starts fighting again with Ali. So I think it was a legit punch.

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Originally Posted by greynotsoold

Floyd was the second, or maybe third, worst hW champ of all time, ahead of only Johannsson for sure. Maybe he was better than Marvin Hart (lost to Burns), but I don't know much about him.

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You are kidding right ? i can think of a whole lot of Heavyweight champions in this era that were worse than Floyd Patterson. Who's only downfall was being too small, and could of been an all time at Light Heavyweight.

wish Ali would'a quit when he still had legs.

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Originally Posted by Master

In that fight Liston still wanted to fight Ali, if he wanted to give up he would have stayed down for longer than the 10 count. He starts fighting again with Ali. So I think it was a legit punch.

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Liston did get up, but I believe he thought the fight was over, in fact, if I remember right, the ref Joe Walcott, had fucked up the count, let the fight resume, but in meantime the timekeeper told Walcott the fight was over after the KD, and he stopped it. I still don't think the punch was hard enough to hurt Liston, it was all an act, but that's just me. I figure the mob made a killing on the 1st round KO.

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Originally Posted by Mars_ax

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Originally Posted by Master

In that fight Liston still wanted to fight Ali, if he wanted to give up he would have stayed down for longer than the 10 count. He starts fighting again with Ali. So I think it was a legit punch.

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Liston did get up, but I believe he thought the fight was over, in fact, if I remember right, the ref Joe Walcott, had fucked up the count, let the fight resume, but in meantime the timekeeper told Walcott the fight was over after the KD, and he stopped it. I still don't think the punch was hard enough to hurt Liston, it was all an act, but that's just me. I figure the mob made a killing on the 1st round KO.

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No Liston and Ali carried on fighting for a few seconds and Liston was fine. The ref stopped them fighting and declared that Liston should have been counted out. So Liston was prepared to carry on. If he was going to lie down he would have stayed down.

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Originally Posted by ICB

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Originally Posted by greynotsoold

Floyd was the second, or maybe third, worst hW champ of all time, ahead of only Johannsson for sure. Maybe he was better than Marvin Hart (lost to Burns), but I don't know much about him.

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You are kidding right ? i can think of a whole lot of Heavyweight champions in this era that were worse than Floyd Patterson. Who's only downfall was being too small, and could of been an all time at Light Heavyweight.

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I was just considering up until the end of the Lewis era, actually. After that I mostly quit paying attention, and there got to be 7 and 8 champions at a time. Given that, I guess he was better than Douglas, Moorer, and Briggs.

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Originally Posted by boxzine

wish Ali would'a quit when he still had legs.

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If Ali had quit when he still had legs, he would not be considered "the greatest" because that didn't start to gain hold, really, until after the Foreman fight and the last Frazier fight. Strangley enough, it was undiminished by sound losses to Frazier in the first fight, Norton (who couldn't fight much at all), aloss to Leon Spinks, and gift decisions over Jimmy Young and Earnie Shavers (neither of whom could fight much, either).

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Originally Posted by greynotsoold

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Originally Posted by boxzine

wish Ali would'a quit when he still had legs.

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If Ali had quit when he still had legs, he would not be considered "the greatest" because that didn't start to gain hold, really, until after the Foreman fight and the last Frazier fight. Strangley enough, it was undiminished by sound losses to Frazier in the first fight, Norton (who couldn't fight much at all), aloss to Leon Spinks, and gift decisions over Jimmy Young and Earnie Shavers (neither of whom could fight much, either).

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You sure do hate on alot of fighters, you may know your boxing. But some of your comments are shocking, Ken Norton couldn't fight much ? tell that to Quarry, Ali 3x, Holmes.

Jimmy Young couldn't fight much ? he beat George Foreman, and gave some of the toughest Heavyweight's all they could handle.

Pretty disrespectful IMO.

I don't hate Kenny Norton; far from it, he was my favorite hw for most of the 70s. But the fact remains that he wasn't all that good. According to the IBHOF, of which he is a member, he was 4-8-1 against top 10 opposition, and most of those were early kos. He beat Quarry, who was way way way past his best by then, and had had too many tough fights.
Jimmy Young lost twice to Ossie Ocasio (he was only 31 or 32 then), to Randy Neumann, Pat Cuillo, and Chuck Gardner. He lost to Roy Williams and he lost to guys like Henry Clark and Richard Dunn.
I think that when it comes to that whole era, there are a lot of guys that are great because they fought Ali, and Ali is great because he fought those guys. Foreman of the 70s was a big, strong, heavyhanded clubbing puncher that tired pretty quickly, and his ring IQ wasn't especially high; he said as much himself years later, when he'd have beaten Jimmy Young.

I watched this again on another holiday today.

In the first round at the end of it Ali started attacking Liston and backing him up, amazingly. During the interval he is clowning at the crowd opening his mouth. In the third Ali batters Liston throwing loads of punches almost punching himself out.

In the 4Th Ali get something in his eyes which Liston's lot must have done. Ali wanted to quit but in that round moved around and Liston got tired trying to load up. Liston quit in the 6th saying he had dislocated his shoulder, which Joe Louis kept on reporting to the TV.

Ali infamously saying "I shook up the world!!"

He also got Sam Cooke to come into the ring after. Magic stuff.