Who is manny like

Given the fight this coming weekend I thought I'd take a crack at putting Manny in some sort of historical perspective. One way to do that is to find fighter's whose resumes share major characteristics with Manny's I think there are two at the top of the list. But before we look at those two let me outline what I think are Manny's major accomplishments. Not in any order

1. Has won THE MAN championships in four divisions (in an era of 17 of them)
2. Has defeated highly ranked fighters across five of the original divisions and ten of today's
3. One of only 5-6 teenage champions in history
4. Has probably defeated HOFers on 5-7 occasions
5. Has over 50 wins

Now let's look at two guys from yesteryear.

Jimmy McLarnin-What does he share with Manny?
1. Defeated top ranked fighters from 112-147
2. Carried his power so well he won the undisputed 147 crown with a KO1. (Musta been the steroids)
3. Began as a teenager
4. Fifty or so career wins
5. Wins over HOFers on 10+ occasions

McLarnin is usually in folks top fifty all-time but not often above 30 or so. Here's the other guy.

Tony Canzoneri-What does he share with Manny?
1. Defeated top ranked fighters from 118-147
2. Was undisputed champion at 126, 135 and 140. Got a draw fighting for the undisputed 118 crown as a teenager. This was in a time of only ten divisions.
3. Carried his power so well he won the 135 crown with a KO1 and the 140 crown with a KO3. (Musta been the steroids)
4. Defeated HOFers on 10+ occasions
5. An unbelievable athlete who fought with his hands at his waist and his jaw thrust forward. He'd try to get you to throw and then counter the bejeezus out of you.
6. By the time he got to 147 he too was really undersized at 5'4 with a 68" reach.

Now Canzoneri finished with 137 wins, with over 30 over ranked guys and usually appears ranked in the 25-35 kind of range.

Just for some perspective on what Manny has done.

These guys seem like they were young when greatness began, and we all know once you hit 30ish weight becomes a major factor. I think Manny still has some greatness ahead of him, he seems to be hitting his stride right about now. Look at his photos the guy is seriously cut up.

Still think Edwin valero would have beat him and why isn't he on fight night champion

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Originally Posted by marbleheadmaui

Given the fight this coming weekend I thought I'd take a crack at putting Manny in some sort of historical perspective. One way to do that is to find fighter's whose resumes share major characteristics with Manny's I think there are two at the top of the list. But before we look at those two let me outline what I think are Manny's major accomplishments. Not in any order

1. Has won THE MAN championships in four divisions (in an era of 17 of them)
2. Has defeated highly ranked fighters across five of the original divisions and ten of today's
3. One of only 5-6 teenage champions in history
4. Has probably defeated HOFers on 5-7 occasions
5. Has over 50 wins

Now let's look at two guys from yesteryear.

Jimmy McLarnin-What does he share with Manny?
1. Defeated top ranked fighters from 112-147
2. Carried his power so well he won the undisputed 147 crown with a KO1. (Musta been the steroids)
3. Began as a teenager
4. Fifty or so career wins
5. Wins over HOFers on 10+ occasions

McLarnin is usually in folks top fifty all-time but not often above 30 or so. Here's the other guy.

Tony Canzoneri-What does he share with Manny?
1. Defeated top ranked fighters from 118-147
2. Was undisputed champion at 126, 135 and 140. Got a draw fighting for the undisputed 118 crown as a teenager. This was in a time of only ten divisions.
3. Carried his power so well he won the 135 crown with a KO1 and the 140 crown with a KO3. (Musta been the steroids)
4. Defeated HOFers on 10+ occasions
5. An unbelievable athlete who fought with his hands at his waist and his jaw thrust forward. He'd try to get you to throw and then counter the bejeezus out of you.
6. By the time he got to 147 he too was really undersized at 5'4 with a 68" reach.

Now Canzoneri finished with 137 wins, with over 30 over ranked guys and usually appears ranked in the 25-35 kind of range.

Just for some perspective on what Manny has done.

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How do you rank Manny all time as of now?

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Originally Posted by miron_lang

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Originally Posted by marbleheadmaui

Given the fight this coming weekend I thought I'd take a crack at putting Manny in some sort of historical perspective. One way to do that is to find fighter's whose resumes share major characteristics with Manny's I think there are two at the top of the list. But before we look at those two let me outline what I think are Manny's major accomplishments. Not in any order

1. Has won THE MAN championships in four divisions (in an era of 17 of them)
2. Has defeated highly ranked fighters across five of the original divisions and ten of today's
3. One of only 5-6 teenage champions in history
4. Has probably defeated HOFers on 5-7 occasions
5. Has over 50 wins

Now let's look at two guys from yesteryear.

Jimmy McLarnin-What does he share with Manny?
1. Defeated top ranked fighters from 112-147
2. Carried his power so well he won the undisputed 147 crown with a KO1. (Musta been the steroids)
3. Began as a teenager
4. Fifty or so career wins
5. Wins over HOFers on 10+ occasions

McLarnin is usually in folks top fifty all-time but not often above 30 or so. Here's the other guy.

Tony Canzoneri-What does he share with Manny?
1. Defeated top ranked fighters from 118-147
2. Was undisputed champion at 126, 135 and 140. Got a draw fighting for the undisputed 118 crown as a teenager. This was in a time of only ten divisions.
3. Carried his power so well he won the 135 crown with a KO1 and the 140 crown with a KO3. (Musta been the steroids)
4. Defeated HOFers on 10+ occasions
5. An unbelievable athlete who fought with his hands at his waist and his jaw thrust forward. He'd try to get you to throw and then counter the bejeezus out of you.
6. By the time he got to 147 he too was really undersized at 5'4 with a 68" reach.

Now Canzoneri finished with 137 wins, with over 30 over ranked guys and usually appears ranked in the 25-35 kind of range.

Just for some perspective on what Manny has done.

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How do you rank Manny all time as of now?

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I remember when I join here someone said top 100, around 98. After 2 years here I move him up to 97. Manny's earned it.;)

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Originally Posted by generalbulldog

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Originally Posted by miron_lang

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Originally Posted by marbleheadmaui

Given the fight this coming weekend I thought I'd take a crack at putting Manny in some sort of historical perspective. One way to do that is to find fighter's whose resumes share major characteristics with Manny's I think there are two at the top of the list. But before we look at those two let me outline what I think are Manny's major accomplishments. Not in any order

1. Has won THE MAN championships in four divisions (in an era of 17 of them)
2. Has defeated highly ranked fighters across five of the original divisions and ten of today's
3. One of only 5-6 teenage champions in history
4. Has probably defeated HOFers on 5-7 occasions
5. Has over 50 wins

Now let's look at two guys from yesteryear.

Jimmy McLarnin-What does he share with Manny?
1. Defeated top ranked fighters from 112-147
2. Carried his power so well he won the undisputed 147 crown with a KO1. (Musta been the steroids)
3. Began as a teenager
4. Fifty or so career wins
5. Wins over HOFers on 10+ occasions

McLarnin is usually in folks top fifty all-time but not often above 30 or so. Here's the other guy.

Tony Canzoneri-What does he share with Manny?
1. Defeated top ranked fighters from 118-147
2. Was undisputed champion at 126, 135 and 140. Got a draw fighting for the undisputed 118 crown as a teenager. This was in a time of only ten divisions.
3. Carried his power so well he won the 135 crown with a KO1 and the 140 crown with a KO3. (Musta been the steroids)
4. Defeated HOFers on 10+ occasions
5. An unbelievable athlete who fought with his hands at his waist and his jaw thrust forward. He'd try to get you to throw and then counter the bejeezus out of you.
6. By the time he got to 147 he too was really undersized at 5'4 with a 68" reach.

Now Canzoneri finished with 137 wins, with over 30 over ranked guys and usually appears ranked in the 25-35 kind of range.

Just for some perspective on what Manny has done.

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How do you rank Manny all time as of now?

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I remember when I join here someone said top 100, around 98. After 2 years here I move him up to 97. Manny's earned it.;)

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LOL

I guess its totally about perspective.

People like Emmanuel Steward, Jim Lampley, larry Merchant etc. have Pac higher than that. :D

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Originally Posted by No Contest

These guys seem like they were young when greatness began, and we all know once you hit 30ish weight becomes a major factor. I think Manny still has some greatness ahead of him, he seems to be hitting his stride right about now. Look at his photos the guy is seriously cut up.

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I don't think I have ever seen, nor ever been made aware of, a fighter who made such vast technical improvements in his late 20's after 50 pro fights. Just amazing.

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Originally Posted by miron_lang

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Originally Posted by marbleheadmaui

Given the fight this coming weekend I thought I'd take a crack at putting Manny in some sort of historical perspective. One way to do that is to find fighter's whose resumes share major characteristics with Manny's I think there are two at the top of the list. But before we look at those two let me outline what I think are Manny's major accomplishments. Not in any order

1. Has won THE MAN championships in four divisions (in an era of 17 of them)
2. Has defeated highly ranked fighters across five of the original divisions and ten of today's
3. One of only 5-6 teenage champions in history
4. Has probably defeated HOFers on 5-7 occasions
5. Has over 50 wins

Now let's look at two guys from yesteryear.

Jimmy McLarnin-What does he share with Manny?
1. Defeated top ranked fighters from 112-147
2. Carried his power so well he won the undisputed 147 crown with a KO1. (Musta been the steroids)
3. Began as a teenager
4. Fifty or so career wins
5. Wins over HOFers on 10+ occasions

McLarnin is usually in folks top fifty all-time but not often above 30 or so. Here's the other guy.

Tony Canzoneri-What does he share with Manny?
1. Defeated top ranked fighters from 118-147
2. Was undisputed champion at 126, 135 and 140. Got a draw fighting for the undisputed 118 crown as a teenager. This was in a time of only ten divisions.
3. Carried his power so well he won the 135 crown with a KO1 and the 140 crown with a KO3. (Musta been the steroids)
4. Defeated HOFers on 10+ occasions
5. An unbelievable athlete who fought with his hands at his waist and his jaw thrust forward. He'd try to get you to throw and then counter the bejeezus out of you.
6. By the time he got to 147 he too was really undersized at 5'4 with a 68" reach.

Now Canzoneri finished with 137 wins, with over 30 over ranked guys and usually appears ranked in the 25-35 kind of range.

Just for some perspective on what Manny has done.

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How do you rank Manny all time as of now?

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Right about even with McLarnin and behind Canzoneri. Top 50, maybe top 40 something like that.

Of course I could change my mind in about an hour or so :)

Ben Johnson

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Originally Posted by Hornfinger

Ben Johnson

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While I am of the belief that nearly all world class athletes are using PED's I see absolutely nothing that makes Manny jump out.

It is when people do things that have never been done before that my eyes open up. Manny hasn't as this data proves. What Manny HAS done that is unique is make technical improvements. But how the heck could drugs make his right hand or balance or footwork better?

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Originally Posted by marbleheadmaui

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Originally Posted by Hornfinger

Ben Johnson

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While I am of the belief that nearly all world class athletes are using PED's I see absolutely nothing that makes Manny jump out.

It is when people do things that have never been done before that my eyes open up. Manny hasn't as this data proves. What Manny HAS done that is unique is make technical improvements. But how the heck could drugs make his right hand or balance or footwork better?

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Three things. One, does Manny's style remind you of anyone from the past? Two, why do you think most world class athletes are using PED's? Does this include Olympic athletes? Three, the question bound to be asked, where does Floyd rank in comparison?

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Originally Posted by Rantcatrat

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Originally Posted by marbleheadmaui

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Originally Posted by Hornfinger

Ben Johnson

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While I am of the belief that nearly all world class athletes are using PED's I see absolutely nothing that makes Manny jump out.

It is when people do things that have never been done before that my eyes open up. Manny hasn't as this data proves. What Manny HAS done that is unique is make technical improvements. But how the heck could drugs make his right hand or balance or footwork better?

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Three things. One, does Manny's style remind you of anyone from the past? Two, why do you think most world class athletes are using PED's? Does this include Olympic athletes? Three, the question bound to be asked, where does Floyd rank in comparison?

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Does Manny's style remind me of guys from the past. In pieces sure, Duran, Wilde, Villa, Olivares, Pep. In totality? Not really. The sport hasn't had many blazing fast, lefty powerhouses.

A little personal history. I became friends with a trainer in the early 1990's who was on the staff of several professional sports teams. He told me around 1992 that the correct working presumption was EVERYONE at the world class level was doing something. It was nearly impossible to compete at that level clean. I told him I didn't believe that and he began dropping names. And over the years he never gave me a name where the guy wasn't later caught up in things. Over the years maybe 75-100 names. After 15 years of him being right EVERY SINGLE TIME I quit arguing.

As far as the Olympics go, there was a famous survey of Olympic Athletes done in 1972 where almost 70% of athletes admitted using steroids. Now my guess is that the figure today is FAR higher than that. Testing is a joke. You have to remember that in order to test for something, you really have to know it exists. These chemists and doctors don't give athletes something until they have a masking agent and until they run the same tests WADA runs. The folks who get caught are the folks who make mistakes in protocols, or in the case of BALCO, where someone gives the testers the drugs' formula.

In terms of sheer talent? Mayweather is one of the top 5 guys of my lifetime and probably one of the top 15-20 of all-time. In terms of what he has actually accomplished? He's a borderline top 50. For me THAT is the frustration with him. He simply hasn't done what he could have.

For me Floyd will always have the edge over everyone simply be cuz he insisted on taking the tests. And he passed passed them. Very few athletes can say they did that.

Hard hat, lunch pail on a demolition job, looks you straight in the eye;)... right!

Pacquiao's Ranking Among All-Time Greats - ESPN Video - ESPN

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Originally Posted by KananKrus

Hard hat, lunch pail on a demolition job, looks you straight in the eye;)... right!

Pacquiao's Ranking Among All-Time Greats - ESPN Video - ESPN

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Thanks for that. Pretty dismal group in terms of insight though. I'll bet only Atlas would even recognize ATG names like Ike Williams or Eder Jofre or Jack Britton etc.

I'd LOVE to see this debate with guys like Graham Houston, Mike Silver, Mike Casey, Angelo Dundee, Dan Cuoco, Al Bernstein, Herb Goldman and Max Kellerman around the table.

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Originally Posted by marbleheadmaui

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Originally Posted by KananKrus

Hard hat, lunch pail on a demolition job, looks you straight in the eye;)... right!

Pacquiao's Ranking Among All-Time Greats - ESPN Video - ESPN

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Thanks for that. Pretty dismal group in terms of insight though. I'll bet only Atlas would even recognize ATG names like Ike Williams or Eder Jofre or Jack Britton etc.

I'd LOVE to see this debate with guys like Graham Houston, Mike Silver, Mike Casey, Angelo Dundee, Dan Cuoco, Al Bernstein, Herb Goldman and Max Kellerman around the table.

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Yeah... didn't you notice, a discussion? Somewhat yes, but with Atlas on a domination mood, doing a podium like gig and by all intents and purposes, practically culling the herd... LOL!

Of course when Teddy chose to go opening the books on the other three, they instanly went limp... effectively backed into oblivion and without any hope of presenting their own two-cent worth of material. Har! Har!

Well, there's ESPN for us boxing folks, "feebly" moving our beloved sport meekly back to its once established prominence!

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Originally Posted by marbleheadmaui

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Originally Posted by Hornfinger

Ben Johnson

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While I am of the belief that nearly all world class athletes are using PED's I see absolutely nothing that makes Manny jump out.

It is when people do things that have never been done before that my eyes open up. Manny hasn't as this data proves. What Manny HAS done that is unique is make technical improvements. But how the heck could drugs make his right hand or balance or footwork better?

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it isn't as if he bulked up much either. He weighs in and then only puts on a few pounds. When he gets in the ring he is the size that a junior welter normally is when entering the ring (hell, there are alot of junior welters who weigh more than the 148-149 that Pac usually weighs when he walks in the ring). Brandon Rios ballooned up in a fight in the last 6 months to more than Pac weighs and Rios is a lightweight.

The balance is amazing to me. He always had fast feet, but they weren't good. He'd get over-extended, off-balance, etc... The right hand had a nice progression. Roach worked on that for years. It really was in the last 3-4 fights where you could see that Pac's use of his right hand felt natural to him (for a while it looked like Freddie was force feeding that change into him).

Armstrong. Thats who he is like.

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Originally Posted by captainanddew

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Originally Posted by marbleheadmaui

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Originally Posted by Hornfinger

Ben Johnson

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While I am of the belief that nearly all world class athletes are using PED's I see absolutely nothing that makes Manny jump out.

It is when people do things that have never been done before that my eyes open up. Manny hasn't as this data proves. What Manny HAS done that is unique is make technical improvements. But how the heck could drugs make his right hand or balance or footwork better?

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it isn't as if he bulked up much either. He weighs in and then only puts on a few pounds. When he gets in the ring he is the size that a junior welter normally is when entering the ring (hell, there are alot of junior welters who weigh more than the 148-149 that Pac usually weighs when he walks in the ring). Brandon Rios ballooned up in a fight in the last 6 months to more than Pac weighs and Rios is a lightweight.

The balance is amazing to me. He always had fast feet, but they weren't good. He'd get over-extended, off-balance, etc... The right hand had a nice progression. Roach worked on that for years. It really was in the last 3-4 fights where you could see that Pac's use of his right hand felt natural to him (for a while it looked like Freddie was force feeding that change into him).

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All great points. I first saw Manny, like most of us, in the Ledwaba fight. Then over the years I went back and watched as many of his prior 112 fights as I could find and saw all of his fights since the Ledwaba fight. About 90 seconds into the Diaz fight I was out of my chair saying to a buddy, "who the HELL is THIS? Manny's learned how to box!" It seemed like someone threw a switch!

Not to sound like a "Pactard" but no one is quite like Manny Pacquiao, name another fighter who has moved up as many weight classes and dominated the elite fighters there.

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

Armstrong. Thats who he is like.

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But he's really not is he? I mean he has succeeded across weights, but Armstrong put his head on your chest and wailed away. Then he'd take that little step to his right and throw that short chopping right hand over and over again and he did this 25 fights a year.

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Originally Posted by Mars_ax

Not to sound like a "Pactard" but no one is quite like Manny Pacquiao, name another fighter who has moved up as many weight classes and dominated the elite fighters there.

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LOL, did you read my original post? McLarnin and Canzoneri!

There are other guys who have done more than Manny across classes. Langford beat ATG's from 135 to heavyweight, Mickey Walker beat top guys from 147 heavyweight, Barbados Joe Walcott did the same. George Carpentier went from flyweight to heavy (but didn't really beat top guys at fly).

It is an awfully small group.

Hey marbleheadmaui
http://www.saddoboxing.com/boxingfor...ine=1303337771

Let me borrow this thread ok? Thanks ;D

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Originally Posted by miron_lang

Hey marbleheadmaui
http://www.saddoboxing.com/boxingfor...ine=1303337771

Let me borrow this thread ok? Thanks ;D

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Go forth and sin!

The obvious choice would be Henry Armstrong because of the work rate and all action style. Also the fact that he has jumped up in weight and won titles. He is a southpaw so that would be the main difference and in that regard he is a bit like Naz with his punch power but not style of boxing.

Or maybe a southpaw Ricky Hatton.