Some Of The Old Timers Weigh In...... "MARCIANO"

Im 32yrs old, my father recently passed and was almost 80yrs old. I had an older father growing up so I heard different tales then those of kids my own age. It still echos in my head coming from my dads mouth......"MARCIANO"

My dad pretty much quit watching boxing after or towards the end of the Ali era... he would always say that "Archie Moore hit him with his best shot and it still couldn't....." Now I am not looking for lots of hate or slander here given I am a presumed Pac Hater. But the way some love Pac is an understatement or toned down version of how my dad spoke of Marciano. Was my dad nuts? LOL Was Marciano really that good? I know you guys have torn his resume apart many times but I'm curious. I recall hearing so many times that Ali wouldn't last in the ring with Marciano. Now of course this is all opinion. I'm just curious as to what some of the experts here think. My dads birthday is coming up and I tend to think of the things he was passionate about.....double breasted suits, race horses, pesto sauce, Rocky Marciano and the Yankees... lol

thanks

You're 32? Wow!

No disrespect but I had you down for about 15 with your childish Pac obsession.

No way you're 32. Come on!

Marciano simply wrecked the division. I'm not sure one can ask for any more than that of a fighter. When he retired? It took the sport 18 months to find/develop the next guy in Floyd Patterson and to win acclaim he had to beat a guy the Rock had already beaten in Archie Moore.

Marciano had some very specific limitations.
-He had the reach of an alligator (67 inches IIRC)
-He wasn't very big, 5'10-185 or so
-He wasn't particularly fast of hand or foot
-He started late and so never developed a high, consistent level of skill. He could be very wild and often off-balance
-Gifted boxers often made him look ordinary...for a while.

But he also had some real talents.

-He was overwhelmingly physically strong for a man his size. He trained by throwing large rocks among other things and he had a special 300 pound heavy bag that he'd punch. He took one hell of a punch and could sustain one hell of a lot of punishment.
-He may have been the most fit heavyweight who ever walked the earth. He could throw punch after punch after punch after punch and never get winded. A near freak in this department. When he did get rocked he had remarkable recuperative powers.
-He had very heavy hands. A consistent comment from his opponents was that he hurt them no matter where he hit them. Forearms, shoulders, elbows, hips, chest etc. He was a battering ram puncher.
-He understood EXACTLY who he was as a fighter. He understood all of the above and so he fought to his strengths. His fitness enabled him to fight out of a crounch (try that next time you're in the ring if you want a fitness test). He didn't get discouraged by being hit and he thought about solutions to in-ring problems in the context of his strengths and limitations.
-He occasionally did things extremely well and when he did? The results were explosive. Watch the five seconds before he finishes Joe Walcott from a view that shows his feet and watch the wonderfully quick double shuffle that gets the distance just right so he can land Susie Q. Or watch the Irish Bob Murphy-Kid Matthews fight and then the Marciano-Matthews fight. Matthews beat Murphy by leaning back to avoid Murphy's excellent left hook, In round one and part of round two that same tactic works against the Rock. But in the middle of the second the Rock figures it out. He moves Matthews to the ropes and throws a left hook that Matthews leans back and mostly evades. Then Marciano takes one more step in and throws a second hook and the Kid has nowhere to go. Fight over.
-He was mentally extremely tough. He hung in there with LaStarza in the first fight and though often behind in fights he never stopped coming. When Ezzard's elbow split his nose into two separate pieces and Al Berl told him he could only give him one more round? Rocky stopped Ezzard in 90 seconds.

What's it all mean? He was one hell of a fighter. The best comparison I've seen made is to Joe Frazier. They aren't exactly the same, but as boxing comparisons go it isn't bad. I think Marciano, like Frazier, gives any fighter under 215 say one hell of a tussle. Guys over 215 he'd mostly destroy too, but probably not the greats over 215. You want to beat Marciano? You'd better be a truly tough guy, in damned near perfect physical condition and come ready to go all night long.

Marciano would have thrived even more in the era when fights went to a finish and he would have been easier to beat in 12 round fights.

One more thing on Ali and Marciano. They sparred for like 50 rounds shortly before Rocky died when they made the computerized super fight. Now of course a lot was scripted but the stories were that when Ali started to get out of line Marciano would pound on his body and leave Ali bruised up. All the times I heard Ali talk about Marciano it was with great respect. My own view (and interestingly enough my Dad's who loved the Rock) was that Ali would probably have stopped the Rock on cuts.

#1 the Yankees SUCK!

As for "The Rock" he had an awkward style, he went for broke with every power punch he threw. He had a tenacity paired with power and stamina that more than made up for his lack of "pure boxing" skill...he was always able to either out hustle or out muscle his opponent.

Rocky's success gives hope to anyone ever considered too small or too average for success....if only they could have bottled his iron will! Down on the cards, damn near stopped by Walcott, nose split down the middle, and then BANG out of nowhere it's Suzy Q to the rescue. Great, great fighter.

Ali> Marciano
Many other fighters > Marciano

He was good but there were better fighters than him. He was the best in his time but wouldnt last vs later generation fighters like Holmes, Foreman, Lewis and Tyson.

Today ,he would lose to the Klitschkos , probably to Haye but beats guys like Arreola, Adamek, Povetkin.

Theres my 2 cents

If MafiaJoey = MilMascaras then being 32 is a big lie :D



Mil Mascaras is at least 70 years old ;)

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Marciano simply wrecked the division. I'm not sure one can ask for any more than that of a fighter. When he retired? It took the sport 18 months to find/develop the next guy in Floyd Patterson and to win acclaim he had to beat a guy the Rock had already beaten in Archie Moore.

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Give me a break. He fought albeit not his fault in the weakest hev division in the history of the sport. He's the definition of a product of his environment. Get real people. He's Holmes with less to choose from and two of them over the hill almost kicked his head in. And Lastarza 1 give me a break.

He never wrecked anything off paper.

Tough prick,different breed of hungry people back then, they dont build them like that any more. I question a few of his hits though, looks like some were crunched in right off the bottom off his wrist bone on the un padded side of the glove, but they were tough slug matches.

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Originally Posted by marbleheadmaui

No way you're 32. Come on!

Marciano simply wrecked the division. I'm not sure one can ask for any more than that of a fighter. When he retired? It took the sport 18 months to find/develop the next guy in Floyd Patterson and to win acclaim he had to beat a guy the Rock had already beaten in Archie Moore.

Marciano had some very specific limitations.
-He had the reach of an alligator (67 inches IIRC)
-He wasn't very big, 5'10-185 or so
-He wasn't particularly fast of hand or foot
-He started late and so never developed a high, consistent level of skill. He could be very wild and often off-balance
-Gifted boxers often made him look ordinary...for a while.

But he also had some real talents.

-He was overwhelmingly physically strong for a man his size. He trained by throwing large rocks among other things and he had a special 300 pound heavy bag that he'd punch. He took one hell of a punch and could sustain one hell of a lot of punishment.
-He may have been the most fit heavyweight who ever walked the earth. He could throw punch after punch after punch after punch and never get winded. A near freak in this department. When he did get rocked he had remarkable recuperative powers.
-He had very heavy hands. A consistent comment from his opponents was that he hurt them no matter where he hit them. Forearms, shoulders, elbows, hips, chest etc. He was a battering ram puncher.
-He understood EXACTLY who he was as a fighter. He understood all of the above and so he fought to his strengths. His fitness enabled him to fight out of a crounch (try that next time you're in the ring if you want a fitness test). He didn't get discouraged by being hit and he thought about solutions to in-ring problems in the context of his strengths and limitations.
-He occasionally did things extremely well and when he did? The results were explosive. Watch the five seconds before he finishes Joe Walcott from a view that shows his feet and watch the wonderfully quick double shuffle that gets the distance just right so he can land Susie Q. Or watch the Irish Bob Murphy-Kid Matthews fight and then the Marciano-Matthews fight. Matthews beat Murphy by leaning back to avoid Murphy's excellent left hook, In round one and part of round two that same tactic works against the Rock. But in the middle of the second the Rock figures it out. He moves Matthews to the ropes and throws a left hook that Matthews leans back and mostly evades. Then Marciano takes one more step in and throws a second hook and the Kid has nowhere to go. Fight over.
-He was mentally extremely tough. He hung in there with LaStarza in the first fight and though often behind in fights he never stopped coming. When Ezzard's elbow split his nose into two separate pieces and Al Berl told him he could only give him one more round? Rocky stopped Ezzard in 90 seconds.

What's it all mean? He was one hell of a fighter. The best comparison I've seen made is to Joe Frazier. They aren't exactly the same, but as boxing comparisons go it isn't bad. I think Marciano, like Frazier, gives any fighter under 215 say one hell of a tussle. Guys over 215 he'd mostly destroy too, but probably not the greats over 215. You want to beat Marciano? You'd better be a truly tough guy, in damned near perfect physical condition and come ready to go all night long.

Marciano would have thrived even more in the era when fights went to a finish and he would have been easier to beat in 12 round fights.

One more thing on Ali and Marciano. They sparred for like 50 rounds shortly before Rocky died when they made the computerized super fight. Now of course a lot was scripted but the stories were that when Ali started to get out of line Marciano would pound on his body and leave Ali bruised up. All the times I heard Ali talk about Marciano it was with great respect. My own view (and interestingly enough my Dad's who loved the Rock) was that Ali would probably have stopped the Rock on cuts.

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LOL Yes 32, I was born in 79. Full time single dad to a little 5yr old girl. I have two great boxers and I guess I let the fumes out on this site. Apologies to you Marble and everyone else for my wild side at times. If I were to speak civilly on the situation of Pac.... I was a super fan of Pac, just let down in the beginning. That's not for here or there... I will act my age (: What did you think I was 12? LOL

If I had a million dollars to bet I would have bet Marble would have the answer. And to the others... it was just a question. Like I said my dads bday is coming and certain things stick out. I know he was convinced in his opinion and wouldn't ever consider anything else. But just curious... I remember as a kid teasing him Tyson would beat Rocky Marciano... wow that was like calling him a racial slur...lol (He was fresh off the boat in 1952) but again thanks....

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Originally Posted by miron_lang

If MafiaJoey = MilMascaras then being 32 is a big lie :D



Mil Mascaras is at least 70 years old ;)

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I don't understand Mil Mascaras? I'm Mafia Joey, been here since what 06 or so. Never joined more then once nor with a fake account. Trust me.... I was banned in the past. Saddo has my IP, after a long break I was sent an email inviting me back. Anyways apologies if I offended you a zillion times.

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Originally Posted by mafiajoey

I don't understand Mil Mascaras? I'm Mafia Joey, been here since what 06 or so. Never joined more then once nor with a fake account. Trust me.... I was banned in the past. Saddo has my IP, after a long break I was sent an email inviting me back. Anyways apologies if I offended you a zillion times.

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I see.

Sorry about that. I thought i read somewhere that you are mil. No apologies needed :D

Anyone who thinks Marciano would beat Ali is batshit crazy.

Marciano was the best HW of his era, fought the best fighters available during that time, and finished his career with a perfect 49-0, what more can you really ask of a HW champion?

It's possible Marciano gets beat by Ali, Holmes, Foreman or the bigger Heavyweights of the more modern era, but who cares, he did his thing.

BTW Joey, I think Pacquiao knocks Marciano out in about 3 rounds. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Mars_ax

Marciano was the best HW of his era, fought the best fighters available during that time, and finished his career with a perfect 49-0, what more can you really ask of a HW champion?

It's possible Marciano gets beat by Ali, Holmes, Foreman or the bigger Heavyweights of the more modern era, but who cares, he did his thing.

BTW Joey, I think Pacquiao knocks Marciano out in about 3 rounds. :rolleyes:

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Nobody is denying that. This thread resurrects itself on countless forums every year at least once. I try to ignore them the best I can but they beat me down after a time. Marciano gets full marks for doing what he did at the time he did it. He's a folk hero and that's cool.

This notion that because of that or some condo sized computer Marciano beats Ali is border line lunacy. That's not a personal shot at anyone but it is one directed at the very premise.

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Originally Posted by gest12645

Ali> Marciano
Many other fighters > Marciano

He was good but there were better fighters than him. He was the best in his time but wouldnt last vs later generation fighters like Holmes, Foreman, Lewis and Tyson.

Today ,he would lose to the Klitschkos , probably to Haye but beats guys like Arreola, Adamek, Povetkin.

Theres my 2 cents

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David Haye? You're kidding right? Marciano would have Haye curled up in the fetal position sobbing in five rounds.

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

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Marciano simply wrecked the division. I'm not sure one can ask for any more than that of a fighter. When he retired? It took the sport 18 months to find/develop the next guy in Floyd Patterson and to win acclaim he had to beat a guy the Rock had already beaten in Archie Moore.

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Give me a break. He fought albeit not his fault in the weakest hev division in the history of the sport. He's the definition of a product of his environment. Get real people. He's Holmes with less to choose from and two of them over the hill almost kicked his head in. And Lastarza 1 give me a break.

He never wrecked anything off paper.

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He did everything he could have done. That is what we know. Everything else is guesswork.

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Originally Posted by marbleheadmaui

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

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Marciano simply wrecked the division. I'm not sure one can ask for any more than that of a fighter. When he retired? It took the sport 18 months to find/develop the next guy in Floyd Patterson and to win acclaim he had to beat a guy the Rock had already beaten in Archie Moore.

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Give me a break. He fought albeit not his fault in the weakest hev division in the history of the sport. He's the definition of a product of his environment. Get real people. He's Holmes with less to choose from and two of them over the hill almost kicked his head in. And Lastarza 1 give me a break.

He never wrecked anything off paper.

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He did everything he could have done. That is what we know. Everything else is guesswork.

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Never said anything otherwise but with that, he does not match up in the least with Ali. Langford has a better shot and he was 5'6.

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Originally Posted by Mars_ax

Marciano was the best HW of his era, fought the best fighters available during that time, and finished his career with a perfect 49-0, what more can you really ask of a HW champion?

It's possible Marciano gets beat by Ali, Holmes, Foreman or the bigger Heavyweights of the more modern era, but who cares, he did his thing.

BTW Joey, I think Pacquiao knocks Marciano out in about 3 rounds. :rolleyes:

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I agree.... maybe even round 1? (:

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

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Originally Posted by Mars_ax

Marciano was the best HW of his era, fought the best fighters available during that time, and finished his career with a perfect 49-0, what more can you really ask of a HW champion?

It's possible Marciano gets beat by Ali, Holmes, Foreman or the bigger Heavyweights of the more modern era, but who cares, he did his thing.

BTW Joey, I think Pacquiao knocks Marciano out in about 3 rounds. :rolleyes:

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Nobody is denying that. This thread resurrects itself on countless forums every year at least once. I try to ignore them the best I can but they beat me down after a time. Marciano gets full marks for doing what he did at the time he did it. He's a folk hero and that's cool.

This notion that because of that or some condo sized computer Marciano beats Ali is border line lunacy. That's not a personal shot at anyone but it is one directed at the very premise.

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I try not to get into heavy discussions or arguments about who wins hypothetical all-timer matchups. Because although for example, prime Ali would likely have boxed circles around Marciano, busted up his face, and went on to win a UD/TKO, unless they actually fought each other, it's still just a guess. So why get serious, it ain't worth fussing about.

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Originally Posted by Mars_ax

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

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Originally Posted by Mars_ax

Marciano was the best HW of his era, fought the best fighters available during that time, and finished his career with a perfect 49-0, what more can you really ask of a HW champion?

It's possible Marciano gets beat by Ali, Holmes, Foreman or the bigger Heavyweights of the more modern era, but who cares, he did his thing.

BTW Joey, I think Pacquiao knocks Marciano out in about 3 rounds. :rolleyes:

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Nobody is denying that. This thread resurrects itself on countless forums every year at least once. I try to ignore them the best I can but they beat me down after a time. Marciano gets full marks for doing what he did at the time he did it. He's a folk hero and that's cool.

This notion that because of that or some condo sized computer Marciano beats Ali is border line lunacy. That's not a personal shot at anyone but it is one directed at the very premise.

---

I try not to get into heavy discussions or arguments about who wins hypothetical all-timer matchups. Because although for example, prime Ali would likely have boxed circles around Marciano, busted up his face, and went on to win a UD/TKO, unless they actually fought each other, it's still just a guess. So why get serious, it ain't worth fussing about.

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Thanks for the input on this one, you too Marble

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Originally Posted by Fenster

You're 32? Wow!

No disrespect but I had you down for about 15 with your childish Pac obsession.

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Same here, I thought he was 16 or 17. Hell even threads that aren't Pac related has him talking about him.

Interesting for the posters in this thread:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9b0yH...eature=related

Dude, knew what he was doing.

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

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Marciano simply wrecked the division. I'm not sure one can ask for any more than that of a fighter. When he retired? It took the sport 18 months to find/develop the next guy in Floyd Patterson and to win acclaim he had to beat a guy the Rock had already beaten in Archie Moore.

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Give me a break. He fought albeit not his fault in the weakest hev division in the history of the sport. He's the definition of a product of his environment. Get real people. He's Holmes with less to choose from and two of them over the hill almost kicked his head in. And Lastarza 1 give me a break.

He never wrecked anything off paper.

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Can't disagree with this.

mafiajoey is Mils Mascaras?? If so, did he used to post on BOXREC because I remember Mascaras as being a good poster who knew alot about Mexican fighters..

Nice Video Andre, too bad the quality of the film wasn't as good as it is now, so much information & history gets lost.

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probably to Haye but beats guys like Arreola, Adamek, Povetkin.

Theres my 2 cents

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how the fuck did such a dumbass win the prediction contest? ;D This time round Im exposing you, and beating you by 100 points come November.

What was the average height, reach, weight during Marciano's time? Up Marciano's body stats up over 30% to compensate for the lesser sizes of previous generations. Add to that personal trainers, better training techniques and diet. I bet Marciano could beat Vlad down to nothing if Marciano was 6'2", weighed 245, with an 80 inch wingspan.

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Originally Posted by awdleyfuturehalloffamer

What was the average height, reach, weight during Marciano's time? Up Marciano's body stats up over 30% to compensate for the lesser sizes of previous generations. Add to that personal trainers, better training techniques and diet. I bet Marciano could beat Vlad down to nothing if Marciano was 6'2", weighed 245, with an 80 inch wingspan.

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Ezzar4d Charles was 6', 73 inch reach, 190 or so
Walcott was 6', 74, 200
Lee Savold was 6', 74, 200
Nino Valdez was big at 6'3, 80 and 210
Roladn LaStarza was 6, 73, 190