Right after the 2nd Pascal fight.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYZbz...eature=related
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Right after the 2nd Pascal fight.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYZbz...eature=related
can't fault him. No BS
I was expecting another thread about Brother Naz's sex life & baby mommas ;D
Truthfully, I agree with everything he said there. I like how he said to Adonis Stevenson, 'I can't make you a champion, you gotta be doing it by being dedicated to your craft'. I also agree about the hunger once they've got rich. Hopkins is about the only guy I can think of who's got made & still seems desperate for it.
''When the truth comes home, bullshit goes out the window''... Love that!
Also, what he says about todays young guys makes me wonder if we'll ever see a particular degree of craft again. I mean the Ortiz Berto fight was entertaining but there was no shift in strategy, no adjustments, no 2nd level to go to. Same as the Degale Groves fight... There might be an element of Battle that these kids may never grasp.
Good stuff!
Like the way Nazim differentiates between things a trainer can influence and things a fighter either has or he doesn't. Also like how he differentiates between athletes and educated fighters. Differentiates between reflexes and skill.
He was also dead right. Pascal was the same guy in the second fight. "Because his people LIED to him."
Man boxing is a truth-telling endeavor.
Sort of depressing isn't it? The dearth of teachers is the problem. Roach, Stewart, Nazim and Beristain are all getting near the end aren't they? That leaves Ronnie Shields, Buddy McGirt and hopefully John David Jackson, Sweet Pea and some others come on and spread the gospel.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimanuel Boogustus
old school trainers telling you you're shit. What the game needs
I don't think there's any problem with the battle (listen to you Eddie Futch), it's the chess match they have trouble with (fuck, look at ME thinking I'm Ray Arcel). Any of these guys have come up being able to fight.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimanuel Boogustus
I remember discussing a similar thing with Maui. Once Mayweather, Hopkins & Marquez retire who is there who really looks to have that real fine craft of the next generation? Andre Ward & Chad Dawson maybe, perhaps Donaire, but truthfully I don't see too many guys.
Part of it may be that in the amateurs particularly at the international level, you don't get rewarded in the ways that would create real craft. The points scoring system that has been in place till recently effectively meant you didn't ever score with a jab & bodyshots don't count (although this has changed recently, but too far the other way). Having any kind of inside 'game' of the kind displayed in the Mayweathers & Hopkins of the world is pointless because it won't get you points.
Athleticism is the name of the game. I mean it really boggles my mind that guys making the kind of mistakes that I've seen Berto & Pascal make were international class amateurs.
I disagree with Roach. He's a great trainer, but he's exactly the kind of guy who gets the best out of great athletes. I've not seen a fighter of his where I've thought that guy really is devoted to the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmaui
This is the God's honest truth. Nothing makes me train harder in the gym & work on my fundamentals than being told I'm boxing shit & don't deserve to be in a ring. When you hear that, that is when you go in front of the mirror for two hours & work on every little facet of your movement that you can. The thing is some better fighters refuse to hear it because they'd much rather have their ego fed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Howling Mad Missy
Yeah Jaz I'm actually on the same page as you. When I referred to ' the element of battle' I wasn't talking about will or heart because when things aren't going to plan it's easier to push harder and override your opponent than it is to tactically readjust but instead I meant the ability or insight to want to sell the other guy down the road so that just maybe things may only appear to not be going your way because you actually know how to take that road to get yourself home before they do. But then you'd have to be a 50 fight contender to even be at that level. Yeah I totally agree about the state of the amateur game... Its moving further and further away from real boxing which can only bread a bunch of bound-to- be frustrated, paint by numbers, point-scorers. I HATE watching Amateur Boxing! I'd rather watch fencing.
Disagree strongly with that. It's still 'real' boxing. I'd recommend going to a club show near your area. You will see a lot more evenly matched up fights than you would on ANY professional bill. A lot of amateur boxers aren't necessarily paint by numbers point scorers. Hell, DeGale-Groves amateur bout fulfilled a lot more pro criteria than their fight 2 weeks ago. The problem is that at the highest & international level those same fighters aren't rewarded for the things they should be as I said before. You will see guys fighting on a local show & being exciting & looking like great, hard-hitting prospects for the pro ranks. Then they box internationally & they have to be a completely different fighter. There are even a couple of guys who do hit with real power & are built for the pro game, who don't get a shot. I can think of at least 2 recent ABA winners in Dudley O'Shaughnessy & Hosea Burton who haven't been rewarded with international call-ups because they don't have 'the right style' even though it allowed them to win the ABAs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimanuel Boogustus
lol I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure you just agreed with me ;D
.
You're wrong. I certainly don't believe it's not 'real' boxing. 95% of the fights are much better to watch. My beef is with the system employed by AIBA. That system is not amateur boxing. It represents the major events such as the Olympics, but that is not amateur boxing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimanuel Boogustus
I'd say the majority of amateur boxers are still more than up for a tear-up & even at intl level, you will get some good fights. In fact, there are a few fighters I can think of in George Groves & Frankie Gavin who were much more entertaining to watch as amateur than they are as pros.
Like I said my beef is with AIBA & the system at major events. Not to mention that contrary to popular belief, not all the best guys who'd make the best pros actually go pro because it's a dirty business. Hell, Sugar Ray Leonard only went pro because of a 'scandal' about his girlfriend getting pregnant before marriage & his being unable to cash in on his post Olympics image.
Now thats wasssuuppp...
Real talk, getting your third eye poked. :cool:
Jaz your loopy! ;D You mentioned amateurs first (yes at an international level because that's the all important IMO) and I agreed.
I remember reading an article in Boxing News about this a few months back, I wonder if I can track down the issue number...
and he's right about the money-I'm sure ALL fighters have wanted the money BUT also to be the best to build a reputation and so on. But you got guys coming straight out saying, I'll have 30 fights, earn x amount and quit. The drive ain't the same.
Sorry, I was in a fucked up mood yesterday mate, so I kind of just snapped at you on the real boxing comment (which I'll still stand by not being your brightest moment) & went off on one. In all honesty having read through what you've said today properly that was the only bit I disagreed on. My bad man :-\Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimanuel Boogustus
I wasn't really making my point well. The training instruction given at a club level in the amateurs is fantastic imo & it is generally amateur trainers who create great fighters. Pro trainers just get to either refine them/fuck them up/make absolutely no difference. As much as we want to praise the likes of Roach & Steward, most fighters come into the pros as they were in the amateurs. I believe it's no coincidence that the fighters we identify as having the most craft (Floyd, B-Hop, JMM & Ward) are all still around those who first taught them the art of boxing (admittedly Nard swapped Bouie Fisher for his protege Naz, but still close enough).
Now what I was trying to say was that the system employed by AIBA has discouraged skillful boxing of the type previously seen in the ams. The Americans particularly, us & even the Cubans have all been fucked over by this. This has encouraged two styles of fighting. If you've seen amateur footage of guys like Ward & DeGale fighting at domestic contrasting international, you'd believe in both cases that they were completely different fighters. They've brought in some new rules that will hopefully mean bodywork & jabs count, but I've little hope.
Anyway the point I struggled to make in my punch-drunk haze was that amateur boxing isn't the problem & there are some really excellent boxers & clubs out there. However, the politics both internationally & domestically & the scoring system are ensuring that we don't always get the best getting through & boxers aren't always able to learn in a way to make them more well-rounded pros. Hope that makes more sense than my late night ramblings ;)
Jaz, I never got round to telling you how much I agree with you.
Well, I did, but you missed it the first time round ;D Seriously, very good post. Think it left me thinking to such a degree that I completely forgot to respond! :D
i got bored after about a minute of listening to him rattle on
That just about sums you up ;)
Well I had to get it right eventually ;DQuote:
Originally Posted by Jimanuel Boogustus