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How many times would they have to fight before Frazier finds a way to get to Foreman, and is this presumably 100% impossible given the outcome of their 2 fights? Frazier did manage to last into the 5th round I think, much much better than their 1st encounter in Kingston, Jamaica. Could Joe have found a way to take it a few rounds more until George burnt up all his fuel? Or what else could he have tried?
I thought Frazier was on to something in the 2nd fight; Big George was starting to look a little tired and punch slower when he caught Frazier with that left hook that was the beginning of the end. But I think age and ring wear weren't necessarily catching up to Frazier--theyhad a firm grip on him by then, and it really wasn't in his nature to fight a measured fight.
He was, overall, a better fighter than Foreman, he just couldn't beat him.
George admits himself that if Joe had landed the a left hook he threw in the first fight, things could have been different. George said it was like a bullet flying past his ear, but Geroge was so much bigger than Joe. The size, the weight, poor Joe did not stand a chance, it was not even a fair fight.
Simply put TIMING...if Frazier landed he would have hurt Big George. The problem with Frazier is he was kind of like Golota in that it took him a few rounds to really effectively get his strategy going (though unlike Golota, Joe Frazier was mentally tough and a great boxer)
I think that was as bad a style matchup as I have ever seen for a great fighter. Joe was supremely one dimensional. He bobbed and weaved and attacked. It is all he could do and he did it savagely and skillfully. The problem is the antidote for that style is being tall with a powerful uppercut. Well Big George had that and an awfully good chin.
Frazier's chance was to take the fight long but how the heck does his style make THAT happen?
Frazier would need to become Thor and bring that hammer to beat big George!
;D
A shotgun. Maybe.
On a DVD I have (I think it was Champions Forever though I could be mixed up) George says about the first fight that he heard the left hook come whizzing past his face and knew he had to get rid of Joe quickly after that. Now had this punch landed on George and ultimately KO'd him the whole landscape and history of the HW division could have been changed. For me though that is Joe's only chance vs George, to land a big shot early. Joe was Tailor made for George and if they fought 100 times I'd struggle to see Frazier winning many and any that he did would have to be 1 punch KO's which isn't an easy thing to do to Big George.
Big George has ALWAYS been extremely kind and respectful in his comments about Frazier. He says things like you noted and other times he he said he knew Frazier would struggle to quickly reach the same peak he had against Ali and so George took him before he could. In short he acknowledges that he never beat the very best Frazier.Quote:
Originally Posted by rjj tszyu
I often wonder if that's how George genuinely feels or if he is just being the classy man he has become.
I agree he is classy. But Joe's power had to be respected too. I'd love to put a prime Foreman in todays division, I would guarantee carnage.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiBig George has ALWAYS been extremely kind and respectful in his comments about Frazier. He says things like you noted and other times he he said he knew Frazier would struggle to quickly reach the same peak he had against Ali and so George took him before he could. In short he acknowledges that he never beat the very best Frazier.Quote:
Originally Posted by rjj tszyu
I often wonder if that's how George genuinely feels or if he is just being the classy man he has become.
Hell I don't even know if prime Frazier can beat the Foreman that fought Holyfield or Moorer. It's just Joe's style was tailor made for Foreman.
I agree. 1991 Foreman still smokes 1971 Frazier.
Frazier would've had to buy a gun and aim from a very safe place.
I think that's true in almost every heavy era. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by rjj tszyuI agree he is classy. But Joe's power had to be respected too. I'd love to put a prime Foreman in todays division, I would guarantee carnage.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiBig George has ALWAYS been extremely kind and respectful in his comments about Frazier. He says things like you noted and other times he he said he knew Frazier would struggle to quickly reach the same peak he had against Ali and so George took him before he could. In short he acknowledges that he never beat the very best Frazier.Quote:
Originally Posted by rjj tszyu
I often wonder if that's how George genuinely feels or if he is just being the classy man he has become.
If Frasier could survive into the later rounds then he had a good chance of winning. Tying up George, moving side to side, and not getting pushed about as much. Joe had better stamina and endurance but was small in comparison to George.
But isn't that asking Smokin' Joe not to Smoke?Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
Just until the first 5 rounds then he can start the bad ass work when George would be tired.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiBut isn't that asking Smokin' Joe not to Smoke?Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
Geezus, what ever happened to all the great American HW's, Guys like Ali, Frazier, Foreman, Holmes, Tyson, Holyfield, et al. Who knew that era would be the last great era for American HWs? :confused:
If Frazier didn't leave himself so wide open in his 1st fight with Foreman, did a better job of blocking Big George's big bombs, and caught Foreman with some of his powerful left hooks early in the fight, it might have changed the outcome. As it turned out Foreman just waded in with impunity, hit Fraizer with everything but the kitchen sink, with virtually nothing coming back in return.
Frazier -Foreman I: ( it's kind of hard to see how Frazier could ever win a fight with Foreman ain't it )
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9l_RrjjTMc
Sadly, I think even saw the kitchen sink in there at one point in the 1st round. May have been that 2nd knockdown uppercut which I still marvel did not DECAPITATE Frazier.Quote:
hit Fraizer with everything but the kitchen sink
One thing about Frazier is he had amazing durability and an undeniable will to win. How many people could keep getting up the way he did from the shots he did?
Quote:
Originally Posted by rjj tszyu
No kidding, and he never quit, the ref stopped the fight and anyone who doubts Frazier's heart needs to watch Ali-Frazier III, "The Thrilla", Frazier's corner stopped the fight, but Joe undoubtedly would have fought til he was unconscious.
As legend has it, Ali was asking Dundee to pull him out and Dundee told him to wait because he thought Fraziers corner were pulling him. Ah the good old days. Bring back 15 rounders I say.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mars_axQuote:
Originally Posted by rjj tszyu
No kidding, and he never quit, the ref stopped the fight and anyone who doubts Frazier heart needs to watch Ali-Frazier III, "The Thrilla", Frazier's corner stopped the fight, but Joe undoubtedly would have fought til he was unconscious.
Ali said it was "like Death". He said he couldnt believe how strong Frazier was even til the end.
George just had the right physique and style to beat Smokin Joe 9 times out of 10. Ali had the right style to beat Foreman and Frazier had the right style to beat Ali. Styles make fights!!
Someone asked a bit earlier what would happen if a prime Foreman was brought into today's heavyweight division .......... well, he'd chop through them all like a Sherman tank through a cornfield - we's see carnage. It would be like Mr T's highlight reel in Rocky III !!!!
Joe's style was all wrong for beating Foreman... It's like crashing your harley into a Humvee.
Styles aside, I think George was simply too big.
;DQuote:
Originally Posted by X
Foreman would crush today's division... hell Frank bloody bruno would stand a chance too.
Big George had a size advantage over most of the guys he fought, but he did what you want to see such a guy do to his opposition - smash them.
Much more refreshing than watching a big guy spend 9-10 rounds pawing away at a short fat fighter with mediocre skills who is trying get paid without getting hurt too much. :rolleyes:
The best Frazier ( probably against Ali in their first fight) would lose to George most time. Frazier needed to move more and give George some angles. Maybe Joe had more resistance earlier in his career, he was getting blind after the Ali fight, and survived until the later rounds where he could asset himself more against a tiring George.
Frazier lost to Ali two times out of 3 but I see your point X.
Man, this is just one big thread full of analogies ;D
All very true though!
The terms could and would are interesting here. Frazier could've beaten Foreman. But the Frazier we know would not beat Foreman. Styles make fights bro.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimanuel Boogustus
Anal what? What's an anal ogy? Sounds disgusting.
Says X the biggest and most disgusting poster ever on Saddo. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by XQuote:
Originally Posted by Jimanuel Boogustus
Anal what? What's an anal ogy? Sounds disgusting.