BTW..... no props for Gino Rodriguez? C'mon!

We (myself included) are only too quick to dump on a ref when he screws up. But how about Gino Rodriguez last night? I thought he did a remarkable job. I thought the point he deducted from Wlad in Round 7 was dead on. Wlad WAS pulling Haye down behind the head, and Gino had warned Wlad on repeated occasions. But THEN.... when it became obvious that it was more Haye's flopping than Wlad's pulling, Gino turned his attention on HIM.

Here again, he warned Haye on numerous occasions. "Quit doing that!" And to everyone's surprise (including Merchant and company), and my delight..... he counted a flop in Round 11 as a knockdown!! Genius. Some Haye fans may have said, "That was a questionable knockdown". Hell.... it wasn't even a knockdown. But if you're going to throw yourself on the ground like that, then take the 8-count. That made Haye fight more than anything Wlad did.

So props to the ref on this one.

:cool:

Yeah, I think Wlad deserved to lose a point but later on Haye did too... Seeing as you can't lose a point for tripping it was a far call.

I reckon Wlad's camp probably chose a smoother canvas cos they knew Haye would be moving a lot... But the ammount of times he slipped was ridiculous.

No ref should be praised for counting that knock down. I also think the point deduction from wlad was a bit uncalled for.

He stayed out of it for the most part which is good, but the errors he did make, shouldn't have been made.


Haye's tactics to go down when wlad lent on him rather than stay up and let himself get worn down, were clever. Leaning on someone isn't an infringement of the rules, you can't complain because one competetor isn't alowing another one to cheat.

The ref did a pretty poor job. It seemed like he was doing what each cornerman told him to. When Booth complained he took a point from Wvlad and when manny complained he counted a knockdown against Haye.

I understand that the ref called it a KD cuz he was frustrated from Haye diving so wanted to stop that happening but theres ways of going about things. He did it wrong. He should have stood him up then deducted a point from him. Counting that as a knockdown was the wrong decision. The people in charge should sit him down make him watch it back and admit to being wrong. If he sticks by his decision and still believes that it was a genuine knockdown then he shouldnt be allowed near another title fight.

From a fan's perspective.... where we're all expecting a good, action fight... I thought Gino did an EXCELLENT job. Regardless of what drove him to do what he did. Wlad was pulling Haye down behind the head. We all saw it, the crowd saw it, the corners saw it. What would you have preferred... that he didn't do anything at all? As for Haye, I stand by my opinion. Flopping in itself is not a foul. But it ruins a fight. When a fighter takes a knee, the ref gives him an 8-count, right? Well, Haye didn't take a knee, but he did throw himself to the ground on many occasions. So take the 8-count.

That being said, I can't blame Haye fans for thinking to the contrary. After the shameful exhibition Haye put forth last night...... I'd be looking for all sorts of excuses, too.

;)

Being a ref is a thankless job. No matter how good you do.... you're always going to have half the people criticizing your ass. (Usually... it's the loser's fans). But when fans pay good money to see a championship fight, they (we) want to see good, clean action. None of this pulling behind the head or flopping shit. And if the fighters themselves don't seem inclined to provide this to us, the only other person with any power in the ring is the ref. Not that our enjoyment should be a priority in the mind of the ref. He's too busy doing his job. But by taking the necessary actions to prevent and/or discourage the types of tactics that turn us fans off, I believe refs provide a good service.

Just my two cents worth.

:cool:

I like a take charge ref but thought the point deduct was premature. Equally and as much as Haye was falling around like a nursing new born calf and trying to work ref, the ref can't just make it up and act on emotion or something. That could have been turned with a biased agenda driven ref and outrage would be defening...but Hayes 'style' made it fan friendly. If anything just stand Haye up and dock a point. KD's are already blown enough and rulz is rulz, its a slippery slope once you start appealing to group think.

I thought the ref did a good job. Wlad was pushing down on Haye and probably deserved to lose a point, but Haye was taking the piss throwing himself to the canvas literally every round looking to get Wlad disqualified or points deducted.

Haye has no one but himself to blame for the standing count. He dives so much he could quit boxing and pursue a career as a premiership footballer!

Or have I been too harsh on Haye - he did have a broken toe after all?:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by AdamGB

Yeah, I think Wlad deserved to lose a point but later on Haye did too... Seeing as you can't lose a point for tripping it was a far call.

I reckon Wlad's camp probably chose a smoother canvas cos they knew Haye would be moving a lot... But the ammount of times he slipped was ridiculous.

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:vd: "Slipped"....really???

David Haye has a wide stance and when he throws looping/lunging hayemakers he's constantly off balance (which is how Monte Barrett knocked him down).

I think it was the decision of Haye and Booth that whenever Wlad leaned on him for David to go down and cry foul and see if they couldn't win a few points that way...fair play to them, but it eventually backfired and Haye ended up looking like Nani.

I couldn't believe how many times Haye looked at the ref for help...even when there were no fouls at all.

Gino did as good of a job as one could expect, both fighters were equally called out for their fouls and punished as such.

I actually thought he was inconsistent. the calls he made only came after remonstration from either camp. David Haye hitting around the back of the head didn't get a point and neither did blatant punching after the bell.

Because they weren't happening every 30 seconds. You don't take a point off for something like that unless it's done much worse or more frequently.

One thing I did like was that Wlad grabbed on to Haye and looked to Rodriguez to break them... but seeing as they weren't tied up and Haye was able to free himself he was happy enough to let Wlad get punched a hand full of times whilst trying to grapple Haye.

Lyle I'm really not going to bother discussing the 'slips' with you... I think as the fight went on the got more intentional... but you're a fool if you think that the klits would have picked anything but the perfect ring size/canvas.

...and before you get all excited - for the record, I am not saying that this had a drastic outcome on the fight. I think I've made it abundantly clear that I think Haye simply wasn't strong enough to stand in front of Wlad... so he couldn't ever be busy enough to win on points.

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Originally Posted by AdamGB

Because they weren't happening every 30 seconds. You don't take a point off for something like that unless it's done much worse or more frequently.

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I guess I'd have to take a look at the rule book but I don't see why someone needs to violently and repeatedly punch someone after the bell more than once in order to get a points deduction ???

That ref deserves to be in the hall of fame now!!!
He did everything haye paid him to do and haye still lost to wlad who had a broken arm

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Originally Posted by Jimanuel Boogustus

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Originally Posted by AdamGB

Because they weren't happening every 30 seconds. You don't take a point off for something like that unless it's done much worse or more frequently.

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I guess I'd have to take a look at the rule book but I don't see why someone needs to violently and repeatedly punch someone after the bell more than once in order to get a points deduction ???

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Because they may not have heard the bell. Or may struggle to immidieatly disengage from what they're doing.
Unless you've competed I doubt you'd understand the mentality you need to get in to.

If it happens the whole fight then you're looking at a point off or a DQ... once and the ref will just be looking for it happening again.

[QUOTE=AdamGB;989144]

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Originally Posted by Jimanuel Boogustus

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Originally Posted by AdamGB

Because they weren't happening every 30 seconds. You don't take a point off for something like that unless it's done much worse or more frequently.

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I guess I'd have to take a look at the rule book but I don't see why someone needs to violently and repeatedly punch someone after the bell more than once in order to get a points deduction ???

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Originally Posted by AdamGB

If it happens the whole fight then you're looking at a point off or a DQ... once and the ref will just be looking for it happening again.

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Fair enough. It just seems a wee bit unjust that you can foul repeatedly regardless if it's violent or not. Seems daft.

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Originally Posted by AdamGB

Because they may not have heard the bell. Or may struggle to immidieatly disengage from what they're doing.
Unless you've competed I doubt you'd understand the mentality you need to get in to.

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To be honest Adam, it really didn't look like that to me. Looked like Haye was completely frustrated and lashed out just to do some damage.

It wasn't repeated and you will get some leeway. If you're going at 100mph in a car you can't stop in a second.

Haye didn't slip man, he dropped to a knee on purpose each time Wlad leaned on him to try and get points deducted which worked.....once.

On one of those flops the ref should have red carded him ;D

For that fight, Haye was on his knees more than some sluts were in a porn movie.

;D Yeah, it got ridiculous towards the end.

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Originally Posted by Jimanuel Boogustus

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Originally Posted by AdamGB

Because they weren't happening every 30 seconds. You don't take a point off for something like that unless it's done much worse or more frequently.

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I guess I'd have to take a look at the rule book but I don't see why someone needs to violently and repeatedly punch someone after the bell more than once in order to get a points deduction ???

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It often happens, because what the bell or what the referee is saying are not at the foremost focus of your mind. Even in sparring, the trainer might call time, but you don't immediately react to it if you're in flow with your punches. Haye carried on for maybe a second before he turned. I don't think Wlad thought of it as a big deal because he's probably done it himself. The ref will just watch out for if it gets repeated, which might lead them to believe that they're trying to gain an advantage.

After about the fifth round I wondered iof there was a machanism by which the ref could penalize 13. He chose a GREAT one.

He had two decisions to make, got one right, got the other half right.

Yea I thought it was a very good call on both point deductions as well. Wlad definetly bends the rules by leaning on guys in the clinch because he has no infighting ability at all, was glad to see a ref finally make it cost him. Sadly after that Haye started crying wolf, and towards the ends of the fight he was bailing to his knees pre emptively, before Wlad even had a chance to really clinch him, which really stunk. I thought after the first deduction if he had just shown some more grit and tried to fight out of the clinch more often he probably could have baited Wlad into losing more points that way, and it certainly would have made for a better watch if he'd tried.

Refs dont get to make up the rules as they go. It gave us a warm and fuzzy but KD's are already mishandled bad enough. That is opening pandoras box.

It's a fair point, but what is a ref to do in the case that a guy keeps flopping to his knees before a clinch even starts though? That in itself doesn't warrant a point deduction in the rules but it certainly should, and calling the KD really just equated to the same thing. How many fights is it really a regular occurance in anyways? I don't think it's a terrible precident to set at all.

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Originally Posted by p4pking

It's a fair point, but what is a ref to do in the case that a guy keeps flopping to his knees before a clinch even starts though? That in itself doesn't warrant a point deduction in the rules but it certainly should, and calling the KD really just equated to the same thing. How many fights is it really a regular occurance in anyways? I don't think it's a terrible precident to set at all.

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I think calling a knockdown when there is no knockdown just because the guy has fucked you off is a dangerous precedent to set, even if it is quite funny.

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

Haye didn't slip man, he dropped to a knee on purpose each time Wlad leaned on him to try and get points deducted which worked.....once.

On one of those flops the ref should have red carded him ;D

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It was a sensible tactic.

Wlad leaning on him and hugging him is not in the rules of boxing. Haye just took a knee each time wlad tried to infringe the rules.

why allow your opponant to cheat and at the same time drain your energy?

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Originally Posted by Memphis

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Originally Posted by p4pking

It's a fair point, but what is a ref to do in the case that a guy keeps flopping to his knees before a clinch even starts though? That in itself doesn't warrant a point deduction in the rules but it certainly should, and calling the KD really just equated to the same thing. How many fights is it really a regular occurance in anyways? I don't think it's a terrible precident to set at all.

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I think calling a knockdown when there is no knockdown just because the guy has fucked you off is a dangerous precedent to set, even if it is quite funny.

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I understand really, I just can't really agree with that since it's so rare to actually see a fighter going down like that without taking punches or legitimately slipping. Was the standing 8 count in effect for this fight also? I imagine it wasn't or else that would have been a better call technically, but that's besides the point. Haye was deliberately throwing himself to the canvas repeatedly towards the end of that fight, I think it had to cost him somehow, he had been warned repeatedly. It wasn't just the ref he was fucking about with, Haye was really spoiling any potential action and making it a shit fight to watch from about the halfway point. All this would really do is discourage fighters from using such theatrics in the future. And obviously it was really funny;D.

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

We (myself included) are only too quick to dump on a ref when he screws up. But how about Gino Rodriguez last night? I thought he did a remarkable job. I thought the point he deducted from Wlad in Round 7 was dead on. Wlad WAS pulling Haye down behind the head, and Gino had warned Wlad on repeated occasions. But THEN.... when it became obvious that it was more Haye's flopping than Wlad's pulling, Gino turned his attention on HIM.

Here again, he warned Haye on numerous occasions. "Quit doing that!" And to everyone's surprise (including Merchant and company), and my delight..... he counted a flop in Round 11 as a knockdown!! Genius. Some Haye fans may have said, "That was a questionable knockdown". Hell.... it wasn't even a knockdown. But if you're going to throw yourself on the ground like that, then take the 8-count. That made Haye fight more than anything Wlad did.

So props to the ref on this one.

:cool:

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No props to the ref whatsoever.

IF you are going to call going down a knockdown, you don't pick the one that looks the most obvious like Wladimir pushed him down.

The one prior to that when Haye went down because Wladimir barely touched him was one to take a point in, but not one where Wladimir pulls him in and dumps him down all that does is encourage it more if you already got the ref on your side in that situation. Haye flopped the one where Wladimir touched him, but Haye shouldn't lose a point in a situation he was actually guided by Wladimir's hand. Even when they played it on instant replay and made Roy Jones look like an idiot by saying "see here the flop..well Wladimir was pulling him in a little bit..but still.." Yeah.. that's why no one else said anything.

So the ref taking a point away on THAT particular one was bad form. I hate seeing refs trying to implement themselves too much into a fight and I would have been fine with counting going down as a knockdown had Haye kept doing it when Wladimir barely touched him, but calling it in a situation where it actually looked like Wladimir pulled him down is bad on the ref's part. So no kudos for that.

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Originally Posted by p4pking

It's a fair point, but what is a ref to do in the case that a guy keeps flopping to his knees before a clinch even starts though? That in itself doesn't warrant a point deduction in the rules but it certainly should, and calling the KD really just equated to the same thing. How many fights is it really a regular occurance in anyways? I don't think it's a terrible precident to set at all.

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There is just way to much there to be massaged and when ref rules with his emotion and not head it gets dicey. The commissions and governing bodies heads are leary enough without the ones they appoint to enforce the rules turning rouge.

He essentially in a round about way deducted a point out of frustration for something he had already acknowledged was of Wlads doing really, even though Haye was going down more than a ugly drunken best friend of a prom queen after prom.

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Originally Posted by Spicoli

Refs dont get to make up the rules as they go. It gave us a warm and fuzzy but KD's are already mishandled bad enough. That is opening pandoras box.

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A lot of truth in this. I suppose he could have just penalized 13 a point for avoiding fighting instead.

But I gotta say in this case? I got an inappropriate kick out of it.

Like I said, being a boxing ref is a thankless job. You're guaranteed at least 50% of the fans being pissed off at you. And about the KD call on Haye..... what's the big deal? Point deduction... calling it a knockdown.... end result is the same, a one-point disadvantage. Something had to be done. Besides, you can argue that flopping is like taking a knee. You're putting yourself out of harm's way, a safe zone sort of speak. So you get an 8-count. C'mon... the guy's battling to keep control of the fight in there. He's got an Olympic diver on one hand, who suddenly can't seem to keep his feet. On the other you've got someone blatantly pulling the diver down behind the head. It's easy to sit back on the easy chair and pull out the rule book. A lot of these things are appreciation. It's like low blows when the guy's trunks are pulled up to his nipples. Is it a foul? Regardless.... I was happy to see both deductions. Wlad's point taken away for his pulling down on Haye's head, and Gino calling a knockdown on Haye..... SO HE'D STOP DOING THAT SHIT. It worked, too. Unfortunately, it was already close to the end of the fight.

;D

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

Like I said, being a boxing ref is a thankless job. You're guaranteed at least 50% of the fans being pissed off at you. And about the KD call on Haye..... what's the big deal? Point deduction... calling it a knockdown.... end result is the same, a one-point disadvantage. Something had to be done. Besides, you can argue that flopping is like taking a knee. You're putting yourself out of harm's way, a safe zone sort of speak. So you get an 8-count. C'mon... the guy's battling to keep control of the fight in there. He's got an Olympic diver on one hand, who suddenly can't seem to keep his feet. On the other you've got someone blatantly pulling the diver down behind the head. It's easy to sit back on the easy chair and pull out the rule book. A lot of these things are appreciation. It's like low blows when the guy's trunks are pulled up to his nipples. Is it a foul? Regardless.... I was happy to see both deductions. Wlad's point taken away for his pulling down on Haye's head, and Gino calling a knockdown on Haye..... SO HE'D STOP DOING THAT SHIT. It worked, too. Unfortunately, it was already close to the end of the fight.

;D

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Good point!