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Should be a good topic for discussion. Been done before, but still fun nonetheless.
I'll start with
Kostya Tszyu
Best win? Judah?
Duffed up by Vince Philips! (who was coming off a loss and 2 losses in 4)
Duffed up by Hatton!
Very very good fighter and the best of his time, but in all time terms I don't think he belongs with Aaron Pryor, Barney Ross, Wilfredo Benitez, PBF, Pac and maybe Cervantes and Canzoneri.
sergio martinez
very good fighter but not the 3rd best in the world
pongsaklek wonjongkam- he's almost top 5 in ring magazine- what has he done to deserve it?
Any fighter in history there is little footage of. Fact. Unless you're a hardcore creationist how can you possibly judge fighters you haven't actually seen? And if you haven't seen them then how can you possibly rate their opposition, who are even more obscure by association?
(this post was in no way shape or form intended to rile Marblehead. fact.) ;D
I agree with all so far (just to what degree still tbc).
What about Jack Dempsey? Huge draw, shit boxer.
Nonito Donaire.
3rd best p4p in the world ?? I don't think so.
He's clearly a gifted fighter and he has good wins over Montiel and Darchinyan but what else, no one else appears to be worth mentioning.
Maybe i should learn more about the lower divisions before i make this post though.
On any given day a great chance HBO will be calling him "the next" whoeva.
Oh and Mike Tyson. Gamboa. Berto...nevermind. Mayweather, I'm convinced he'll go down as never maximizing greatness, it'll always be who he didn't fight and such. Sort of like Roy Jones Jr. on a way.
You should learn more about the lower divisions, Donaire has beaten a lot of good fighters, and you can see just based on what he does in the ring that he is an amazing fighter.
Sergio Martinez is starting earn my respect. I'm not sure how high I would rank him because I never thought much of Paul Williams, but I definitely think his last fight and his fight against Pavlik put him way up the p4p list.
Also Kostya Tszyu beat a lot of good fighters, Roger Mayweather, JCC, prime Sharmba MItchell. He, also, is a great fighter, and you can see it when he fights. Great technique, power, and boxing savy.
It's guys like Juan Manuel Lopez, Margarito, Pavlik, Soto, Mares, Mijares who have been so overhyped IMO.
Not that he isn't great but even Evander Holyfield I think is vastly overrated. I think he was a ATG for sure, but not a top 50 type guy like they rank him. I can't think of a modern era where he would have ruled the heavyweight division. I think Ali, Foreman, Larry Holmes, prime Tyson, Lennox Lewis, Riddick Bowe, Klitschko brothers beat him far more often than not.... except maybe Tyson.
I don't base my fighters solely on their ability in the ring. I mainly base my fighters on their resume and because i don't know much about lower weight classes, his resume don't look that great to me, not to be rated 3 p4p anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Taeth
Can you give me some of the good fighters Nonito beat so i can look them up.
Carlos Zarate
Interesting one that. I guess most people would have him as the greatest Bantam of all time?? Maybe Olivires?Quote:
Originally Posted by ICB
Bernard Hopkins ....... made loads of defences against the weakest middleweight era I have ever seen, comprehensively outboxed by the flawed Roy Jones, matured into a spoiling, scuffling type fighter who actually is never in good fights !!! Recent 'great achievements' have been against true second raters. Light Heavy world champion at an impressive age allright, but he wasnt exactly beating Archie Moore or Bob Foster etc
Great pointing out Dempsey. Also Patterson.
And Jack Johnson, or Joe Louis are ovarated in terms of comparing them to Hwy's such as Lewis, Holmes, Ali. They wouldn't stand a chance against modern Heavyweights- even the Klitschkos
[laughing]. By this ridiculous standard, a military historian can make no assessment of Julius Cesar or Alexander the great or Napoleon as a general. After all, there is no footage! Nobody cvan make a judgement on Shakespeare's plays either as we have no footage of them being performed the way he wanted them performed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenster
It is a world class DUMB point of view. How the hell do you think history gets studied exactly?
On the other hand
The only post 1900 fighter of significance I have found NO footage of is Greb. That's it. Gans? Got him, Jeffries? Got him. Dixon, McGovern, Fitzsimmons, O'Brien, Ketchell? Got'em all.
Oh, and Greb's "more obsucre opposition?" Men like Loughran and Tunney and Walker? Plenty of footage on them.
;D
LOL, and what in God's name do you base THAT on?Quote:
Originally Posted by gest12645
How do you figure "shit" boxer? He was Cus's model in building Mike Tyson. (aren't you a Tyson guy?)Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimanuel Boogustus
I want to vomit anytime Mr. Ronald Wright and the words great or HOF collide in the same sentence.
It depends how one rates Tyson. If one tries to argue a top ten heavy? Then yeah that's overrating him.
There are two middles EVERYONE has in their top 5-6 middles I just don't get. Marcel Cerdan and Stanley Ketchell. I don't mean they weren't great. But THAT great? Really?
Oscar, I'll bet I haven him lower than many. Big draw, but only a very good fighter.
Then there is my pet group I want pulled from the IBHOF. McGuigan, Norris, Canzales, Mitchell, Graham, Ingo and poor Laszlo Papp.
Mike Tyson is the only guy on my list.
To be honest im not all that knowledgable on the lower weightclasses, but you could also make an argument Ruben Olivares was overrated aswell. He had some great performances against Rose, Castillo, but he was beaten in his prime at his prime weight against Rafael Herrera twice, and did only make 6 title defenses at Bantamweight.Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG HInteresting one that. I guess most people would have him as the greatest Bantam of all time?? Maybe Olivires?Quote:
Originally Posted by ICB
And he wasn't all that successful moving up at Featherweight either, i think other Bantamweights like Jeff Chander get overlooked.
I think one thing that matters in looking at Olivares is that it is like looking at a 1970's heavyweight. What I mean is Olivares fought in the best era for bantams the sport has ever seen (in my view anyway). From about 1965-1972 or so that division had so many exceptional fighters it isn't funny. Being the top dog in THAT era at 118 is like being the top welter of the late 1970's or the top lightweight of post WWI. It's an extraordinary feat.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBTo be honest im not all that knowledgable on the lower weightclasses, but you could also make an argument Ruben Olivares was overrated aswell. He had some great performances against Rose, Castillo, but he was beaten in his prime at his prime weight against Rafael Herrera twice, and did only make 6 title defenses at Bantamweight.Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG HInteresting one that. I guess most people would have him as the greatest Bantam of all time?? Maybe Olivires?Quote:
Originally Posted by ICB
And he wasn't all that successful moving up at Featherweight either, i think other Bantamweights like Jeff Chander get overlooked.
I've come a long way on Zarate. Five years ago I didn't get him. But I've done a lot of work since and I am persuaded he is one of the greats.
He was very good fighter but i do think he gets overrated, he wasn't at the top long enough. And as i said he was beaten twice at his prime weight in his prime, i know he liked party lifestyle but that's he's fault, you got to stay dedicated to stay at the top see Hagler, Hopkins, two great fighters who were never out of shape.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiI think one thing that matters in looking at Olivares is that it is like looking at a 1970's heavyweight. What I mean is Olivares fought in the best era for bantams the sport has ever seen (in my view anyway). From about 1965-1972 or so that division had so many exceptional fighters it isn't funny. Being the top dog in THAT era at 118 is like being the top welter of the late 1970's or the top lightweight of post WWI. It's an extraordinary feat.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBTo be honest im not all that knowledgable on the lower weightclasses, but you could also make an argument Ruben Olivares was overrated aswell. He had some great performances against Rose, Castillo, but he was beaten in his prime at his prime weight against Rafael Herrera twice, and did only make 6 title defenses at Bantamweight.Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG HInteresting one that. I guess most people would have him as the greatest Bantam of all time?? Maybe Olivires?Quote:
Originally Posted by ICB
And he wasn't all that successful moving up at Featherweight either, i think other Bantamweights like Jeff Chander get overlooked.
What gets Evander that kind of ranking as much as anything else are his wins over Qawi and the widely held perception he is the greatest cruiser we have had.Quote:
Originally Posted by Taeth
Orlando Canizales was an amazing fighter, no idea why you would want him pulled from IBHOF.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmaui
No question the losses to Chucho and Hererra count (and Olivares' partying means zilch as you note). But those were NOT a couple of stiffs either. Rafael beat guys like Rodolfo Martinez, Chucho and Venice Bhorkasor. Three terriffic 118's. Chucho beat Pimintel and Medel and Caraballo. Three other terriffic 118's. Like I said that division was absolutely loaded in those years.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBHe was very good fighter but i do think he gets overrated, he wasn't at the top long enough. And as i said he was beaten twice at his prime weight in his prime, i know he liked party lifestyle but that's he's fault, you got to stay dedicated to stay at the top see Hagler, Hopkins, two great fighters who were never out of shape.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiI think one thing that matters in looking at Olivares is that it is like looking at a 1970's heavyweight. What I mean is Olivares fought in the best era for bantams the sport has ever seen (in my view anyway). From about 1965-1972 or so that division had so many exceptional fighters it isn't funny. Being the top dog in THAT era at 118 is like being the top welter of the late 1970's or the top lightweight of post WWI. It's an extraordinary feat.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBTo be honest im not all that knowledgable on the lower weightclasses, but you could also make an argument Ruben Olivares was overrated aswell. He had some great performances against Rose, Castillo, but he was beaten in his prime at his prime weight against Rafael Herrera twice, and did only make 6 title defenses at Bantamweight.Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG HInteresting one that. I guess most people would have him as the greatest Bantam of all time?? Maybe Olivires?Quote:
Originally Posted by ICB
And he wasn't all that successful moving up at Featherweight either, i think other Bantamweights like Jeff Chander get overlooked.
Saying he wasn't at the top long enough in that era is a little like saying Ali wasn't at the top long enough at heavy in the 1970's. About three years IIRC for each guy, right?
And how long was Jeff Chandler (a GREAT fighter) on top anyway? Wasn't his run three years or so also?
Chandler-Olivares. THAT would have been something.
Because he beat only a handful of ranked guys. He was a function of the expanding number of sanctioning bodies. He had something like 16 defenses and in that time didn't face a single top five ranked guy.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBOrlando Canizales was an amazing fighter, no idea why you would want him pulled from IBHOF.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmaui
JCC Jnr, I know I am a lone on this one but he is not a patch on his dad. :rolleyes:
Oh yea i know Rafael Herrera is very good, i actually found out about him awhile ago. After people on youtube said he wasn't that great, i looked at his record and see his fight with Ruben Olivares and was shocked cause he was very good indeed.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiNo question the losses to Chucho and Hererra count (and Olivares' partying means zilch as you note). But those were NOT a couple of stiffs either. Rafael beat guys like Rodolfo Martinez, Chucho and Venice Bhorkasor. Three terriffic 118's. Chucho beat Pimintel and Medel and Caraballo. Three other terriffic 118's. Like I said that division was absolutely loaded in those years.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBHe was very good fighter but i do think he gets overrated, he wasn't at the top long enough. And as i said he was beaten twice at his prime weight in his prime, i know he liked party lifestyle but that's he's fault, you got to stay dedicated to stay at the top see Hagler, Hopkins, two great fighters who were never out of shape.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiI think one thing that matters in looking at Olivares is that it is like looking at a 1970's heavyweight. What I mean is Olivares fought in the best era for bantams the sport has ever seen (in my view anyway). From about 1965-1972 or so that division had so many exceptional fighters it isn't funny. Being the top dog in THAT era at 118 is like being the top welter of the late 1970's or the top lightweight of post WWI. It's an extraordinary feat.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBTo be honest im not all that knowledgable on the lower weightclasses, but you could also make an argument Ruben Olivares was overrated aswell. He had some great performances against Rose, Castillo, but he was beaten in his prime at his prime weight against Rafael Herrera twice, and did only make 6 title defenses at Bantamweight.Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG HInteresting one that. I guess most people would have him as the greatest Bantam of all time?? Maybe Olivires?Quote:
Originally Posted by ICB
And he wasn't all that successful moving up at Featherweight either, i think other Bantamweights like Jeff Chander get overlooked.
Saying he wasn't at the top long enough in that era is a little like saying Ali wasn't at the top long enough at heavy in the 1970's. About three years IIRC for each guy, right?
And how long was Jeff Chandler (a GREAT fighter) on top anyway? Wasn't his run three years or so also?
Chandler-Olivares. THAT would have been something.
Muhammad Ali also had a great career in the 60's though, his fights in the 70's was just the cherry on the cake.
But Jeff Chandler isn't seen in the same light though is he ? he's very underrated by most boxing fans and is never talked about. I loved his fight vs Gaby Canizales.
As for your other comment about Orlando Canizales, he did beat some very solid opponents. Im not saying he had the greatest era, but he was never beaten convincingly, i mean he deserved the nod against Wilfredo Vasquez and was denied winning a title above his peak weightclass.
Also the angles he created were a thing of beauty, in the 1st fight against Kelvin Seabrooks he looked like one of the greatest Bantamweights.
The thing on the HOF is it oughtta be a pretty select group. I'm not saying Canizales wasn't a fine fighter. I'm saying that facing ZERO top five guys in a title reign of sixteen fights isn't enough to get you access. Looking impressive against fringe contenders isn't the same thing as merely beating the best available opposition. Kelvin Seabrooks was a good pro. But he won a vacant strap against an unranked guy from a new organization and defended it against three unranked guys before O fought him.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBOh yea i know Rafael Herrera is very good, i actually found out about him awhile ago. After people on youtube said he wasn't that great, i looked at his record and see his fight with Ruben Olivares and was shocked cause he was very good indeed.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiNo question the losses to Chucho and Hererra count (and Olivares' partying means zilch as you note). But those were NOT a couple of stiffs either. Rafael beat guys like Rodolfo Martinez, Chucho and Venice Bhorkasor. Three terriffic 118's. Chucho beat Pimintel and Medel and Caraballo. Three other terriffic 118's. Like I said that division was absolutely loaded in those years.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBHe was very good fighter but i do think he gets overrated, he wasn't at the top long enough. And as i said he was beaten twice at his prime weight in his prime, i know he liked party lifestyle but that's he's fault, you got to stay dedicated to stay at the top see Hagler, Hopkins, two great fighters who were never out of shape.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiI think one thing that matters in looking at Olivares is that it is like looking at a 1970's heavyweight. What I mean is Olivares fought in the best era for bantams the sport has ever seen (in my view anyway). From about 1965-1972 or so that division had so many exceptional fighters it isn't funny. Being the top dog in THAT era at 118 is like being the top welter of the late 1970's or the top lightweight of post WWI. It's an extraordinary feat.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBTo be honest im not all that knowledgable on the lower weightclasses, but you could also make an argument Ruben Olivares was overrated aswell. He had some great performances against Rose, Castillo, but he was beaten in his prime at his prime weight against Rafael Herrera twice, and did only make 6 title defenses at Bantamweight.Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG HInteresting one that. I guess most people would have him as the greatest Bantam of all time?? Maybe Olivires?Quote:
Originally Posted by ICB
And he wasn't all that successful moving up at Featherweight either, i think other Bantamweights like Jeff Chander get overlooked.
Saying he wasn't at the top long enough in that era is a little like saying Ali wasn't at the top long enough at heavy in the 1970's. About three years IIRC for each guy, right?
And how long was Jeff Chandler (a GREAT fighter) on top anyway? Wasn't his run three years or so also?
Chandler-Olivares. THAT would have been something.
Muhammad Ali also had a great career in the 60's though, his fights in the 70's was just the cherry on the cake.
But Jeff Chandler isn't seen in the same light though is he ? he's very underrated by most boxing fans and he's never talked about. I loved his fight vs Gaby Canizales.
As for your other comment about Orlando Canizales, he did beat some very solid opponents. Im not saying he had the greatest era, but he was never beaten convincingly, i mean he deserved the nod against Wilfredo Vasquez and was denied winning a title above his peak weightclass.
Also the angles he created were a thing of beauty, in the 1st fight against Kelvin Seabrooks he looked like one of the greatest Bantamweights.
Maybe it's because I was living in Philly when Jeff Chandler was doing his thing, but I've always thought Chandler was a top ten all-time 118 and would have been a handful for any 118 who ever laced'em up.
Joe Calzaghe for me
Is BHOP's continued success moving you at all? How about if Kessler gets another big win?Quote:
Originally Posted by armyash
Calzaghe does deserve respect for those 2 wins especially for Kessler in my eyes. He was the other top fighter at the weight and Calzaghe beat him fair and square.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiIs BHOP's continued success moving you at all? How about if Kessler gets another big win?Quote:
Originally Posted by armyash
The win against Bhop was contentious (i had JC winning for what it's worth) it wasn't a clear victory and will be one that people will argue about but i agree it does look better the more Hopkins goes on to achieve. Call me crazy but he could have gone for a rematch and beat him more convincingly which would have done him wonders. I think there was time on his side for a couple more fights too but he chose to retire i think the hunger was dwindling fast as the money rolled in.
The biggest names on his record are Kessler (good win), Hopkins (good but contentious), Roy jones (shell), Reid (people still argue about it), Eubank (on his way out, took fight at short notice), Jeff Lacy (did JC ruin him or was he just a hype job in the first place?)
There are other good names on his record but not good enough to call him a great for beating them.
He could have gone over to Germany beat Ottke even if it meant taking the short end on the pay cheque.
It's not all his own fault, injuries can't be helped and he can only fight what is put in front of him 1 of the greatest British boxers of all time and will be in the IBHOF as he is more qualified than some who are already in there, good for him but yes for me overrated.
For somebody with the amatuer record and pedigree he had and then to hold a title for 12 years undefeated and still be very widely put down and discredited I'd say the guy is extremely underrated.Quote:
Originally Posted by armyash
Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG HFor somebody with the amatuer record and pedigree he had and then to hold a title for 12 years undefeated and still be very widely put down and discredited I'd say the guy is extremely underrated.Quote:
Originally Posted by armyash
He accomplished a lot and it's a brilliant career but i just can't help but think he could have done more. How many times was there fights mentioned/pencilled in for them to be cancelled or he would fight someone we had barely heard of?
I'm not slagging him off as i said previously i am a fan but i think he was a little overrated. My view might change in years to come as i look back but for now that's my opinion. A long title reign is admirable but opponents are also taken in to consideration when judging the reign.
I agree with Tszyu and by association Hatton.
Currently
Segura is the most overatted currently. Ridiculous that he's p4p for beating up a 38 year old tiny tiny tiny man with no power at all.(he'll be 2012's Christian Mijares and will lose his title to a 11-3-1 phenom)
Sergio Martinez
Nonito Donaire
Frankie Gavin
Agree Hatton was a little overrated i wonder if he ever thinks it would have been a good idea to not balloon so badly between fights, not that it would have affected the outcome of his losses greatly but maybe would have prolonged his career slightly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
Too early to say about Gavin at the moment i think he's lazy and needs a good kick up the arse and possibly a different trainer, I have a feeling he is the boss of Farnell who is just happy to have him on his books and doesn't want to rock the boat. He needs a no nonsense trainer and i dont think Farnell is that trainer.
Fair play mate, but I don't buy the argument about his opposition. I really don't see who was operating at SMW during his reign that he should've fought and didn't - except perhaps Ottke and JC would've outclassed him very comfortably imo. I'm not saying JC's oppoistion was great, but I wanna know who he should've fought and didn't - remembering it takes 2 to tango.Quote:
Originally Posted by armyashQuote:
Originally Posted by BIG HFor somebody with the amatuer record and pedigree he had and then to hold a title for 12 years undefeated and still be very widely put down and discredited I'd say the guy is extremely underrated.Quote:
Originally Posted by armyash
He accomplished a lot and it's a brilliant career but i just can't help but think he could have done more. How many times was there fights mentioned/pencilled in for them to be cancelled or he would fight someone we had barely heard of?
I'm not slagging him off as i said previously i am a fan but i think he was a little overrated. My view might change in years to come as i look back but for now that's my opinion. A long title reign is admirable but opponents are also taken in to consideration when judging the reign.
Sergio Martinez & Nonito Donaire are overrated? I don't understand that at all, so who's rated above them?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
It's very hard to take a thread like this seriously when you start with a guy who was best of his time for 10 years, was undisputed champion and fought 16 world champions (50% of all opponents he faced) beating a former world champion in just his 4th pro fight!Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG H
On that logic of Tszyu losing to Phillips you might as well include Carlos Monzon who lost to a guy called Felipe Cambeiro 43-16-4 in 1964 knocking Monzon down 3 times along the way. I guess Monzon is over rated:rolleyes:
Or Alexis Arguello who inexplicably lost to Vilomar Fernadez 30-16-2 in 1977 after stringing togther 26 consecutive wins since his previous defeat!
My point is fighters lose fights, it's how they come back from defeat that makes them real champions. Tszyu was remarkable after losing to Phillips, he dominated a division that at one time was lauded as the best in the world, it is only years later that people say it wasn't that strong? He destroys former lightweight Champion Miguel Angel Gonzalez (who defended that title 10 times) and was fresh from fights with DLH and a draw with JCC, he KO's Judah who was in his prime and a prohibitive favourite, he stops Mitchell (twice) who had not lost for 7 years prior and all this means he is overrated?
What a shame fighters such as Hamed and Hatton decided to take their bat and ball and go home after tasting defeat.
It's very hard to take a response seriously that comes from an Australian ;DQuote:
Originally Posted by THE THIRD MANIt's very hard to take a thread like this seriously when you start with a guy who was best of his time for 10 years, was undisputed champion and fought 16 world champions (50% of all opponents he faced) beating a former world champion in just his 4th pro fight!Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG H
On that logic of Tszyu losing to Phillips you might as well include Carlos Monzon who lost to a guy called Felipe Cambeiro 43-16-4 in 1964 knocking Monzon down 3 times along the way. I guess Monzon is over rated:rolleyes:
Or Alexis Arguello who inexplicably lost to Vilomar Fernadez 30-16-2 in 1977 after stringing togther 26 consecutive wins since his previous defeat!
My point is fighters lose fights, it's how they come back from defeat that makes them real champions. Tszyu was remarkable after losing to Phillips, he dominated a division that at one time was lauded as the best in the world, it is only years later that people say it wasn't that strong? He destroys former lightweight Champion Miguel Angel Gonzalez (who defended that title 10 times) and was fresh from fights with DLH and a draw with JCC, he KO's Judah who was in his prime and a prohibitive favourite, he stops Mitchell (twice) who had not lost for 7 years prior and all this means he is overrated?
What a shame fighters such as Hamed and Hatton decided to take their bat and ball and go home after tasting defeat.
It's just opinions mate, I think he was brillaint, but still overrated.
And a petty Tszyu didn't pick up his bat and ball after losing to Hatton ;) He was still realtively young had had less fights than Hatton (even at that point) and had not exactly been in many wars in order to make him a worn fighter ;)
Well according to the Ring magazine only Manny, and thats my point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mars_axSergio Martinez & Nonito Donaire are overrated? I don't understand that at all, so who's rated above them?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
Martinez hasn't done a great deal in my opinion to prove he's the second best fighter on the planet. Went 1-1 with Paul Williams, drew with Cintron and outpointed an out of form and alcoholic Kelly Pavlik.
I've seen nothing from him that makes me think he could have beaten a prime Hopkins at the weight, or even a prime Pavlik. He's a good fighter who has happened to make his way to the middleweight division at exactly the right time.
Donaire I believe may well prove himself to be great, he looks to have sublime skills, but he hasn't acomplished much in comparison to the other top guys, although his win over Montiel definitely propelled him up there.
Still I'm not yet convinced he's much ahead of guys like Gamboa orJuan Manuel Lopez and he may well yet get found out as he faces tougher opposition.