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What is boxing and the promoters doing?
I hope boxrec.com is wrong. It's so many other fights out there, that could be interesting. Gomez don't even talk trash to promote fights. Saul is a rockstar with a ton of fans, but boxing fans is who he and his promoters should be trying to please.
It's true.
Completely agree, Ant. There are so many fights I'd rather see Saul in than one with Gomez. This is actually a step down from Ryan Rhodes, dare I say. I thought Vanes was his mandatory
This kids being spoon fed, and it's a damn joke. Time to change the diapers and put on the big boy pants GBP!!!!!
If HBO can turn down a fight (i.e. Paul Williams vs Nobuhiro Ishida) to make a better fight, who is it that I have to talk to, to make this clear that this fight should not go on?
Lara, Powell, Spinks or Williams could be better fights.
Alvarez is being spoon fed.
It's only his second defence of the title so I'm not too annoyed.
Hopefully they step up his level of competition soon though.
Surely to have the right to call yourself champ you should be prepared to fight anyone and everyone.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pugilistic
Stepping up after winning the title sounds stupid. Supposed to step up gradually until you reach the title.
I agree with you.Quote:
Originally Posted by armyashSurely to have the right to call yourself champ you should be prepared to fight anyone and everyone.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pugilistic
Stepping up after winning the title sounds stupid. Supposed to step up gradually until you reach the title.
He was basically handed the belt when they put him against Hatton lol. They wanna make some money out of him before they put him against more dangerous fighters who could potentially beat him.
yeah definitely all about money, shame.Quote:
Originally Posted by PugilisticI agree with you.Quote:
Originally Posted by armyashSurely to have the right to call yourself champ you should be prepared to fight anyone and everyone.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pugilistic
Stepping up after winning the title sounds stupid. Supposed to step up gradually until you reach the title.
He was basically handed the belt when they put him against Hatton lol. They wanna make some money out of him before they put him against more dangerous fighters who could potentially beat him.
I read Mayorga was seriously considered as an opponent for Alvarez, but Goldenboy feared Don King would want too much money for the fight.
THAT would have been a lot better of a fight and a lot more of a test.
Simply compare how Gomez and Mayorga did against Miguel Cotto.
Cotto toyed with Alvarez before destroying him.
Cotto had a tough go of it with Mayorga last time out before hookin him in the 12th when Mayorga went for broke, then faked a damn hand injury upon being rocked.;D
Mayorga is a strong guy to put down Cotto and Mosley had trouble doing the job but both got them at the 12.. I would love to see how Canelo would do. That being said, I think Alfonso is an okay opponent due to his popularity. But so many other fighters I would love to see him fight than him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hulk
Apparently the winner gets a shot at Anthony 'The World's Greatest Dad' Bonsante
But he doesn't! ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by armyashSurely to have the right to call yourself champ you should be prepared to fight anyone and everyone.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pugilistic
Stepping up after winning the title sounds stupid. Supposed to step up gradually until you reach the title.
Look the kid is still a prospect and should be brought along like one.
It speaks volumes to the emptiness of holding a title than, rather calling yourself a 'champion' as long as the pockets are deep enough and we fall for the rock star label he is being rushed to market with. Can't have it both ways, but we're falling for it more and more.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiBut he doesn't! ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by armyashSurely to have the right to call yourself champ you should be prepared to fight anyone and everyone.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pugilistic
Stepping up after winning the title sounds stupid. Supposed to step up gradually until you reach the title.
Look the kid is still a prospect and should be brought along like one.
This is a paid infomercial passed off as a Championship match on the premier network for boxing. Yet again.
Canelo should have gone after Angulo who I think is horribly overrated. One would think Cintron is going to be considered next.
Canelo has promise, but he needs a challenge.
It's our own fault. Kellerman put it perfectly when he said (paraphrase) "belts today are not signs of achievement, they are marketing tools."Quote:
Originally Posted by SpicoliIt speaks volumes to the emptiness of holding a title than, rather calling yourself a 'champion' as long as the pockets are deep enough and we fall for the rock star label he is being rushed to market with. Can't have it both ways, but we're falling for it more and more.Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmauiBut he doesn't! ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by armyashSurely to have the right to call yourself champ you should be prepared to fight anyone and everyone.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pugilistic
Stepping up after winning the title sounds stupid. Supposed to step up gradually until you reach the title.
Look the kid is still a prospect and should be brought along like one.
This is a paid infomercial passed off as a Championship match on the premier network for boxing. Yet again.
And too many of us subscribe to it. Alvarez is no more a champion than I am. He's a prospect, a promising one, with a lot of work to do and that is how he should be brought along and in my view, how we ought to judge the fight choices.
[QUOTE=marbleheadmaui;994627]Quote:
Originally Posted by armyashSurely to have the right to call yourself champ you should be prepared to fight anyone and everyone.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pugilistic
Stepping up after winning the title sounds stupid. Supposed to step up gradually
But he doesn't! ;)
Look the kid is still a prospect and should be brought along like one.
When there is money to be made, or advantages to be gained when deciding what weight to make a fight or who gets the bigger share of the pot i'm sure his team will argue he is the champ so gets to call the shots ;)
But yeah he is a prospect and like you say we should judge his fights as so but it is no good billing it as a world title fight then wonder why people are confused about boxing.
Young, inexperienced but still learning prospect 1 minute calling himself the WBC Light middle champ the next.
Man gomez is not great but I think we are being a little harsh on him. He is prob better than Matthew hatton.
I think some of you guys are a bit clueless about modern boxing to be honest. Holding a paper belt hasn't been seen as significant in terms of evaluating a fighters worth for many years but you all still react as if something shocking is taking place.
The only belt that matters is the Ring Belt, the alphabet titles just now exist to give fighters marketability, nobody in boxing is saying Canelo is the best at light middle, nor at 21 years of age does he need to be fighting them.
Just let him grow and develop and the better competition will follow.
As for Gomez being a joke. Really, why? Because he was on the Contender?
Since losing to Cotto he's been on a very decent run and would be just as deserving of a shot at Bundrage's belt or any of the other champs out there.
He ended the effective career of Jose Luis Castillo and got a win over Soto Karass where he was boxing very well and controlling the fight. Karass certainly looked a lot better against Mike Jones.
Gomez is the kind of opponent Canelo needs right now. Someone who will be a live opponent, will test him, but shouldn't derail him.
You people would make the worst boxing matchmakers, you just always want to match a guy so he gets beat and that's it.
This is a decent matchup.
The fact that it's for an alphabet strap has no real significance beyond being a little extra to help sell the fight.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ant Live
Lara just fought and lost at middleweight last week. How is he available?
Ditto for Williams who is also campaigning at middleweight.
Cory Spinks has lost 3 of his last 5 and his only win in 2 years was on points against a 16-10 club fighter.
Sechew Powell just lost a title fight last time out to Bundrage but you think deserves an immediate shot at another one?
By contrast Gomez has not lost a fight since losing to Miguel Cotto and has two decent wins in that time over Soto Karass and Castillo, thus a better record than both Spinks and Powell.
So all four of your fighters are either not available or are inferior choices to Gomez.
It's interesting that if you actually follow boxing form lines and go on merit, then Gomez is the best opponent of the selections you put forward. By contrast you just went with plucking some recognisable names out of the air with no assessment of their recent form, or even what weight class they are fighting in. Thus you displayed the panderings to casual fight marketing that you are claiming to oppose, i.e pick Spinks because he's recognisable name even though he's done nothing in years and is clearly a shot fighter now.
Yup, yup, yup and er, um, yup!Quote:
Originally Posted by armyash
Totally agree Gomez is a decent test for Alvarez, alphabet titles today mean next to nothing , so many titles that mean jack shit ,Alvarez is a really good prospect but that is all and this fight is a good outing against a experianced fighter.
I'm not that sold on Alvarez being the next big thing but people moaning cluelessly against the sport annoy me.Quote:
Originally Posted by roberto duran legend
Boxing is like Hollywood, it's as much entertainment as is it serious sport, and the sport ultimately depends on developing superstars to thrive.
Therefore when a potential massive ticket seller and national star like Canelo comes along it's a GOOD thing to manouevre him to a world title belt, to generate tickets, and hype, much like the new Harry Potter or Twilight film.
Sure, like the Twilight films he might well turn out to be more hype than substance but he can still be a big attraction, and a guilty pleasure even for us 'hardcore' fans who see past the hype.
He's still good for the sport, as is, by the way Alfonso Gomez. He made a lot of fans on the Contender, people who normally wouldn't follow boxing, and if some of them tune into this fight as a result, again, it's a good thing.
Also, Alfonso Gomez is no joke. He has wins over Manfredo, Brinkley, Gatti, Castillo and Soto Karass.
Both Manfredo and Brinkley got world title shots against elite guys, Brinkley only a few months ago, Karass almost upset one of the hottest prospects in the welterweight division and Gatti and Castillo are legends of the sport, involved in some of the most famous and memorable fights of modern times.
Why is it ridiculous that he should be granted a fight against a 21 year old work in progress?
Because he holds an alphabet belt? Please, shut the fuck up, it's such an old and boring argument, tantamount to somebody screaming 'But they should not be having sex they are NOT MARRIED!!!" every time a celebrity couple gets romantically linked.
I'm no fan of the alphabets, but if you seriously believe that you're completely off your rocker :-\Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmaui
What Interrim champions , gold and silver champions :confused: a complete farce , sanction fees my friend thats all they mean .
Did I say I was a fan? I don't rate them, but winning even a worthless paper belt in the ring makes you more of a champ than posting on a boxing website. Fact.Quote:
Originally Posted by roberto duran legend
Chill out champ , just saying there is way to many belts :cool:
Wow bilbo I agree with like everything you said. To be honest people always make fun of match makers and say that they are too careful. But it is an important part of boxing and lots of fighter's careers have been ruined by over aggressive match making. And it is not always the case that the fighter was just over rated. Anyone with actual boxing experience knows the psychological issues that can arise from a loss for fighters
I don't think Gomez is a horrible opponent, but Gomez is the weakest of the opponents that were considered options for this fight. Martirosyan and Mayorga are better. Also, Gomez is a welterweight. Is this fight being fought at welterweight? Rhodes was ranked in the top ten when Canelo fought him, Gomez isn't in the top ten although that's mostly because he is considered a welterweight.Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboQuote:
Originally Posted by Ant Live
Lara just fought and lost at middleweight last week. How is he available?
Ditto for Williams who is also campaigning at middleweight.
Cory Spinks has lost 3 of his last 5 and his only win in 2 years was on points against a 16-10 club fighter.
Sechew Powell just lost a title fight last time out to Bundrage but you think deserves an immediate shot at another one?
By contrast Gomez has not lost a fight since losing to Miguel Cotto and has two decent wins in that time over Soto Karass and Castillo, thus a better record than both Spinks and Powell.
So all four of your fighters are either not available or are inferior choices to Gomez.
It's interesting that if you actually follow boxing form lines and go on merit, then Gomez is the best opponent of the selections you put forward. By contrast you just went with plucking some recognisable names out of the air with no assessment of their recent form, or even what weight class they are fighting in. Thus you displayed the panderings to casual fight marketing that you are claiming to oppose, i.e pick Spinks because he's recognisable name even though he's done nothing in years and is clearly a shot fighter now.
Mr. Baggins, coming from you, someone who violently detests overrated fighters (see Nonito and Sergio), your defense of Canelo is surprising. Canelo is spoken of as the next huge thing in boxing and he is ranked #3 at junior middleweight. This is ahead of Vanes, Lara, Williams, Bundrage, Dzinziruk, Trout, Monila, Rodriguez, Wolak and Latimore. Now, he deserves to be ranked above some of these guys, but Gomez doesn't, at least not most of them. The fact that this division is so deep and Canelo chose Gomez is the reason why people are disappointed. Furthermore, Gomez to me is a step back from Rhodes, at best a horizontal move, not a vertical one.
You misunderstand me Rantcatrat, I'm not at all against media hype of a fighter, I hate it when they get critical accolades and merit before they earn it. Thus Nonito Donaire getting into the top 10 p4p off the back of a win over Darchinyan two years previously, because Darchinyan went on to become a multiple weight champ really annoyed me. He was fighting bums, and often not looking that great and because Darchinyan was stomping guys like Arce and Mijares Donaire was flying up the p4p rankings. That was wrong imo. Actually following his sensational destruction of Montiel he's starting to justify the hype so I'm getting off his back.
In Canelo's case the Ring haven't yet put him in their p4p rankings and Max and the HBO crew arn't yet showering him with accolades like they do Martinez and Donaire so it's ok.
Regarding Alvarez I'd say the hype and attention are clearly overboard (I don't think he will be great) but the actual assessment of his acomplishments thus far have not.
If he beats Gomez and Max starts saying he's a true p4p fighter now and one of the only rivals to Pacquiao or Mayweather then you can bet I will be complaining!
For what's it worth though, right now I think he's well below that level and needs to be brought along carefully. I'm not sure he could even beat Mayorga yet if Mayorga came to win. I'd certainly not put him anywhere near Cotto or Martinez, not even Cintron or Lara.
But he does have an exciting future and I like the idea of seeing him up against Chavez Jr at some point.
I think fans have unrealistic demands. If they don't think a fighter can beat the best right now then he's shit, a bum. If he's not fighting the absolute hardest opponent you can match him with then he's cherry picking or being spoonfed.
Canelo is 21. He has his whole career ahead of him. The plan for his team is not to get beat up just yet and to pick opposition that test him, but won't derail him. Just be patient and enjoy wathcing him mature into a real dangerous junior middle.
Sure it may be sacrosanct that he has a belt, but it's been this way in boxing for decades now. As I said before it's like somebody complaining every time an unmarried couple have sex, or choose to live together. Yes, we know they are violating God's word and they are openly living in sin in a probably Christian country, but it's the 21st century now. Sexual morality has laregly gone down the toilet and a girl is now considered chaste and virtuous if she only goes to third base on the first date. Get over it. Be celibate if you want, but don't expect the world to join you. Same in boxing. Continue to believe that each belt is a sacred and holy object, to be bestowed only to the most worthy and proven of warriors. You will only end up disappointed when you see that boxing long ago ceased to regard them that way. They are just selling points for a fight, a bartering tool. It doesn't matter though, we have the Ring belts and it's easy to see who the real champs are and indeed, they do get recognised as such.
I just find this pining for a retrun to some mythical period when the belts really mattered pathetically sentimental and unrealisitc, like a puritan harkening back to when no girl sinned sexually, and was a virgin until she met her equally untouched man. Maybe an episode of The Waltons was like that but not real life...
Alvarez has ZERO legitimate claim to being CHAMPION. None. (Neither do I;))Quote:
Originally Posted by JazMerkinI'm no fan of the alphabets, but if you seriously believe that you're completely off your rocker :-\Quote:
Originally Posted by marbleheadmaui
It's a bullshit fight...
I mean it's not as bad as when Calzaghe fought Manfredo but it's still bad.
PPV anyone?
[QUOTE=Bilbo;994820]I think some of you guys are a bit clueless about modern boxing to be honest. Holding a paper belt hasn't been seen as significant in terms of evaluating a fighters worth for many years but you all still react as if something shocking is taking place. Isn't that just a complete contradiction while defending this showcase to further a guys 'worth' and visibility etc? I mean "silver Champion" haha? I wouldn't call it shocking really...just calling bullshit on it.
The only belt that matters is the Ring Belt, the alphabet titles just now exist to give fighters marketability, nobody in boxing is saying Canelo is the best at light middle, nor at 21 years of age does he need to be fighting them. He should be fighting someone who is not brought in to 'make him look good'...and Oscar now owns Ring Magazine so I'm beginning to take that with a grain of salt too.
Just let him grow and develop and the better competition will follow. Go grow and develop on ESPN or some undercard, not HBO and a mega media platform main event.
As for Gomez being a joke. Really, why? Because he was on the Contender? Yes. And that he's not very good.
Since losing to Cotto he's been on a very decent run and would be just as deserving of a shot at Bundrage's belt or any of the other champs out there. Sure, for a meaningless strap yeh. Bit of a 'Contender' series rehash :p. But when's the last time you saw K-9 treated like The Next Coming by the premier network for Championship boxing on this scale. This is one show case too many.
He ended the effective career of Jose Luis Castillo and got a win over Soto Karass where he was boxing very well and controlling the fight. Karass certainly looked a lot better against Mike Jones. Castillo was shot full of holes and put on a highly visible PPV event vs Gomez to do exactly what your doing now....drop his name when Gomez was fed to another "superstar" in the making promoted by the same company. Cynical, I know. And Jorge Paez jr ended Castillo career...for now. He got cut with Soto Karass after some good boxing and basically took the cheap way after Soto Karass was coming on
Gomez is the kind of opponent Canelo needs right now. Someone who will be a live opponent, will test him, but shouldn't derail him. Thats called a sparring partner who gets booted from a guys camp for being too ballsy...or an opponent who knows his role.
You people would make the worst boxing matchmakers, you just always want to match a guy so he gets beat and that's it. We need to keep ourselves in check is all Bilbs. As we are to accept Canelo as a work in progress...cough..the fans equally cannot be so eager to drink the kool aid and give a pass when you see a pattern of almost meek match making resulting in some grand anointment happens. He is bordering on a guy who's hype and afforded stage outrun his huge in the ring accomplishments thus far for me. If I want popular I can go watch American Idol
This is a decent match up. Rock beats scissors match up really. He'll get back that 'power' mystic with as willing and as out gunned Gomez will be. Alvarezs solid body work will be served on a silver platter.