The Death of Boxing?

Two recent football developments have got me scared to death for my beloved sport of boxing.

1. In the Ivy League new rules are being instituted that place strict limitations on the number of contact and full pad practices both in pre-season and during the season. Now all the rules really do is codify current practices anyway. I don't know of any college team that hits more than twice a week in season or who goes full pads for more than one of the two regular pre-season practices. Here's the problem. The reason for this codification is to prevent head injuries by limiting collisions. I think it is of critical import that it is the Ivy League that is doing this. Why? Because it is the Ivy Leaguers who are disproportionately opinion makers, politico's etc. They have outsized influence and if they have this kind of focus on protecting athletes from head trauma? What's next?

Ivy League football limits full-contact practices to reduce brain injury — NewsWorks

2. In the yet to be signed National Football League Labor Agreement, they will be limited to one a day pre-season practices to limit injuries. At the same time a group of 75 ex players is suing the league claiming they withheld knowledge of head injuries since the 1920's. And last year, as we all know, a new level of attention was paid to head shots by the league, conceding something had to be done.

NFL.com news: Blank 'optimistic' owners will approve labor deal Thursday

Here's the problem? If the ex-players can successfully sue the NFL for compensation? The ballgame is over. I mean what then prevents fighters from successfully suing promoters for their injuries? How many suits would it take to drive Arum, King, Golden Boy and every other promoter from the sport? Not very many. And even if those suits do not win? Doesn't it feel like with everything above we are moving towards a society where violence to the head will be considered criminal in any context other than self-defense and civilly liable as well?

If that happens? How long is it before my beloved sport is targeted and destroyed either financially or by legislation?

Geeze I hope I'm being paranoid.

Well to be honest boxing as a sport hasn't changed much. Football on the other hand, has. Look at the equipment, the size of the players, the speed and strength of the players.
The main point of focus that shows the difference is equipment and style of play. Once again boxing: same as it ever was maybe safer. What are you going to change but the rules (unlikely), gloves, boots, and mouthpieces? Football: more passing, higher impact, and equipment that allows the body to cross pain thresholds it shouldn't. The forward pass was invented to make football safer...it hasn't. It creates 2 vulnerable players the QB and sometimes WR that can be hung out to dry at times. The kickoff and kick return are STILL extremely dangerous and very frightening injuries happen during those. The advances in equipment have done nothing but make players feel invincible and make the game faster...bad combination.

I know I played football and its not a contact sport anymore...its a collision sport.

But then compare that to rugby, same advancements as American Football in terms of players being bigger, faster and stronger. But those guys wear no padding at all.

I'm not trying to start a "my sport is harder than your sport" debate. But the pro rugby players train daily still and there would be no way they could sue for injuries.

That would be like a football/ soccer defender suing the league because all of the headers have caused brain damage. Injuries are part of the sport and I'm pretty sure there are enough disclaimers around to keep everyone happy.

As Ivan Drago might say, "If it dies, it dies."

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Originally Posted by 0james0

But then compare that to rugby, same advancements as American Football in terms of players being bigger, faster and stronger. But those guys wear no padding at all.

I'm not trying to start a "my sport is harder than your sport" debate. But the pro rugby players train daily still and there would be no way they could sue for injuries.

That would be like a football/ soccer defender suing the league because all of the headers have caused brain damage. Injuries are part of the sport and I'm pretty sure there are enough disclaimers around to keep everyone happy.

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Sorry but you don't understand, the pads make football MORE dangerous than rugby. If you can hit harder and not "feel" it then you push the envelope and that is what has happened.

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Originally Posted by generalbulldog

As Ivan Drago might say, "If it dies, it dies."

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lol


Those were chilling words & we sure knew he was a bad guy then!

I don't want to get into a Rugby is harder conversation either but take a look at these -

Just examples, nothing especially out of the ordinary -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DF8ct...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNTCyydpG1s&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39hmHKvCJkY&feature=related

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

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Originally Posted by 0james0

But then compare that to rugby, same advancements as American Football in terms of players being bigger, faster and stronger. But those guys wear no padding at all.

I'm not trying to start a "my sport is harder than your sport" debate. But the pro rugby players train daily still and there would be no way they could sue for injuries.

That would be like a football/ soccer defender suing the league because all of the headers have caused brain damage. Injuries are part of the sport and I'm pretty sure there are enough disclaimers around to keep everyone happy.

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Sorry but you don't understand, the pads make football MORE dangerous than rugby. If you can hit harder and not "feel" it then you push the envelope and that is what has happened.

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I'm not gonna lie, I don't fully understand the effects pads have. But I would like to think that the pro players hit as hard as they possibly can in as many tackles as they can. In either sport.

It's a contact sport, your gonna get hurt.

Tackling USED to mean dragging a player to the ground. Now its a massive collision usually with 1 running at full speed and when you tackle you are taught to run through your opponent...in rugby there's less of a collision for the most part especially when you factor in kickoffs and the forward pass.

I used to crackback on guys all the time which is the art (yes its an art form) where you hit someone who never sees you coming. You've got to have great peripheral vision and talent to dish those out and not receive them...bone crushing hits, I loved them!

Yeah just to chime in on the which is more dangerous debate, it's the NFL without any question at all. Ryanman those clips you posted just cement this completely. They are huge tackles, but clean ones, done with finesse. Go watch some big hits in the NFL, it's absolutely nuts the way those guys drill each other. If they weren't wearing so much padding it would be absolutely unthinkable to "tackle" somebody like that, guys would be lucky to only shatter their collarbones. Not to mention they are on average considerably bigger guys in the first place. I'm not a fan of either sport but I'd much rather watch Rugby for what it's worth, however if you look at the statistics in the NFL the injuries those guys endure and suffer from later in life is really frightening. The average life expectancy of a pro Linebacker in the NFL is something like 50, no joke.

On an individual basis I don't think there is any reason for alarm. I think boxing pales in comparison to a franchise label like the NFL and certainly doesn't have Union nor the organization. Fighters suing promoters is nothing new and in some cases they are completely in the right. The individual responsibility- focus is more clear and I just don't see many fighters having the means to match the hierarchy. I wince when Vivian Harris climbs through the ropes but where does his responsiblity lie for doing so, and who is sued, the promoters or the actual State commission who have deemed in fit to fight?

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Originally Posted by 0james0

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

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Originally Posted by 0james0

But then compare that to rugby, same advancements as American Football in terms of players being bigger, faster and stronger. But those guys wear no padding at all.

I'm not trying to start a "my sport is harder than your sport" debate. But the pro rugby players train daily still and there would be no way they could sue for injuries.

That would be like a football/ soccer defender suing the league because all of the headers have caused brain damage. Injuries are part of the sport and I'm pretty sure there are enough disclaimers around to keep everyone happy.

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Sorry but you don't understand, the pads make football MORE dangerous than rugby. If you can hit harder and not "feel" it then you push the envelope and that is what has happened.

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I'm not gonna lie, I don't fully understand the effects pads have. But I would like to think that the pro players hit as hard as they possibly can in as many tackles as they can. In either sport.

It's a contact sport, your gonna get hurt.

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Calling them "pads" gives the wrong impression. They are weapons. You can use techniques you simply cannot use without pads because you'd end up with a fractured skull, broken collarbone etc. he first time you tried them without pads.

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Originally Posted by Spicoli

On an individual basis I don't think there is any reason for alarm. I think boxing pales in comparison to a franchise label like the NFL and certainly doesn't have Union nor the organization. Fighters suing promoters is nothing new and in some cases they are completely in the right. The individual responsibility- focus is more clear and I just don't see many fighters having the means to match the hierarchy. I wince when Vivian Harris climbs through the ropes but where does his responsiblity lie for doing so, and who is sued, the promoters or the actual State commission who have deemed in fit to fight?

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I sure hope you're right!

I loved playing football, but I hate what its done to my body. I'm just 28 and I've had a separated shoulder (one two occasions, same shoulder..injured it a 3rd time playing lacrosse), dislocated numerous fingers, a mild heat stroke, "over training" and from hitting the way I did and lifting all the weights I had to lift to prepare myself for games I suffered a partially slipped disc in my back. I never lost consciousness from a hit (football or otherwise), I've never been diagnosed with a concussion, but I do wonder if I've had one (I mean I've been hit in the head any number of times....FLUSH). I have suffered from bouts of depression, perhaps from getting hit in the head, I don't know. Just know this...I was a very good player in high school, and there were any number of players that took more knocks than me and I've suffered pretty bad as far as I'm concerned.

I've thought that if I have kids I might not let them play football...and that's big coming from me, I'm usually Mr. Manifest Destiny, but its a dangerous sport...most dangerous one I've played and in lacrosse they gave me a 6 foot metal pole and allowed me to hit people with it, and of course I boxed a bit.

I still can't see how it is more dangerous than rugby. I posed rugby quite a bit and US footy a little and loved the fact I had pads on. Made me feel safe!

I can't stop comparing it in my head like pro boxing and amateur boxing with head guards and bigger gloves!

I'm going to have to start a which is harder thread, but also, both players of both sports are massive and all muscle. There is no splitting them in terms of size or athleticism.

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Originally Posted by 0james0

I still can't see how it is more dangerous than rugby. I posed rugby quite a bit and US footy a little and loved the fact I had pads on. Made me feel safe!

I can't stop comparing it in my head like pro boxing and amateur boxing with head guards and bigger gloves!

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Here's a VERY simplified analogy for Rugby anf Football.

In boxing's bare knuckle days how were punches thrown? Straight and designed to cut as much as anything else. Why? Because the bare human hand couldn't handle anything else.

Add wraps and gloves and now what happens? The hook and the uppercut are developed and punches are thrown to crash home on bone, not to scrape and cut. The hand now has "padding" which enables the creation of more violent techniques.

Football is also far more violent simply because blocking is allowed. You have 14-16 men crashing together as hard as they can on every play BEFORE people begin getting after the ballcarrier.

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

I loved playing football, but I hate what its done to my body. I'm just 28 and I've had a separated shoulder (one two occasions, same shoulder..injured it a 3rd time playing lacrosse), dislocated numerous fingers, a mild heat stroke, "over training" and from hitting the way I did and lifting all the weights I had to lift to prepare myself for games I suffered a partially slipped disc in my back. I never lost consciousness from a hit (football or otherwise), I've never been diagnosed with a concussion, but I do wonder if I've had one (I mean I've been hit in the head any number of times....FLUSH). I have suffered from bouts of depression, perhaps from getting hit in the head, I don't know. Just know this...I was a very good player in high school, and there were any number of players that took more knocks than me and I've suffered pretty bad as far as I'm concerned.

I've thought that if I have kids I might not let them play football...and that's big coming from me, I'm usually Mr. Manifest Destiny, but its a dangerous sport...most dangerous one I've played and in lacrosse they gave me a 6 foot metal pole and allowed me to hit people with it, and of course I boxed a bit.

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There are studies being done now that says many football players have some form of brain damage. You're looking at from pee-wee football to hs to college and then the pros. Even less physically demanding positions like wide receiver are having guys with messed up brains. It's a highly physical sport on the human body overall even if it's not on the highest level.

Funny you mentioned it, but I've suffered from bouts of depression also and so did my friends who played hs football. I sure wonder what sort of head trauma accumulates just on the hs level alone.

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Originally Posted by generalbulldog

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

I loved playing football, but I hate what its done to my body. I'm just 28 and I've had a separated shoulder (one two occasions, same shoulder..injured it a 3rd time playing lacrosse), dislocated numerous fingers, a mild heat stroke, "over training" and from hitting the way I did and lifting all the weights I had to lift to prepare myself for games I suffered a partially slipped disc in my back. I never lost consciousness from a hit (football or otherwise), I've never been diagnosed with a concussion, but I do wonder if I've had one (I mean I've been hit in the head any number of times....FLUSH). I have suffered from bouts of depression, perhaps from getting hit in the head, I don't know. Just know this...I was a very good player in high school, and there were any number of players that took more knocks than me and I've suffered pretty bad as far as I'm concerned.

I've thought that if I have kids I might not let them play football...and that's big coming from me, I'm usually Mr. Manifest Destiny, but its a dangerous sport...most dangerous one I've played and in lacrosse they gave me a 6 foot metal pole and allowed me to hit people with it, and of course I boxed a bit.

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There are studies being done now that says many football players have some form of brain damage. You're looking at from pee-wee football to hs to college and then the pros. Even less physically demanding positions like wide receiver are having guys with messed up brains. It's a highly physical sport on the human body overall even if it's not on the highest level.

Funny you mentioned it, but I've suffered from bouts of depression also and so did my friends who played hs football. I sure wonder what sort of head trauma accumulates just on the hs level alone.

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I played four years of small college ball. Two diagnosed concussions (and I'd bet a couple of more that weren't) , two cases of heat stroke, back surgery, busted fingers and one knee and one shoulder that just don't quite work right anymore.

I'd do it all again as I found it enormously rewarding, but I really do wonder.

Interesting points here. On another note MMA with its greater exposure now and the less glove padding, more blood allowed to spill, (well ignored) and allowing to punch when on the ground with no give in that case for the head between the fist and ground; I would imagine they will be targeted before we are with more padding rules and zero hitting while down.
I think they have already taken some of the focus off us in regards our detractors.

I think smaller gloves mean less brain damage but maybe more structural damage (cuts, broken noses, broken orbitals, detached retinas) just a theory.

Having researched it more, they are both equally as dangerous in their own rights.

US football is impact, lots of it, gradual bone crunching above the waist. More tackles as you can hit off the ball and hit most plays.

Rugby is brutal in terms of being stamped on and physical injuries. (see cauliflower ear as an example) You get hit less, but you have no padding.

If there was no padding, American football would have more serious injuries. I think the fact is you need the padding just to play the game.

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

I think smaller gloves mean less brain damage but maybe more structural damage (cuts, broken noses, broken orbitals, detached retinas) just a theory.

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Think you are right. Fights dont go for as long either so the percussive build up is less.

Then again if you can punch a head thats on the ground in thinner gloves that cant be good.

College football player who committed suicide had brain injury - CNN.com

I remember this story a few months back about a Pennsylvania lineman, at 21 only he had developed severe CTE (chronic traumatic encephalopathy). At first it's usually only found in boxers or NFL veterans that have long careers.

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Thomas was a lineman, a position that endures as many as 1,000 hits to the head per season. Recently, neurologists have suggested that such blows to the head could be deceptively severe, even if the player does not feel any pain or show any symptoms. The accumulation of such strikes to the head could cause long-lasting damage.

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Lyle did mentioned in a few posts back that he might not let his kids play football, funny but I also remembered a few retired NFL guys saying that also. And i can understand why. Because the sport is just so physically debilitating and thinking about it in a way American football is the boxing of team sports.

If in the future I have a son and he has a good foot, I'll let him be field goal kicker or punter. The only positions I'll let him play;D

I played offensive line, defensive line, linebacker, and all of the special teams...looking back on not only how much I hit or how hard I hit but just the manner in which I hit I would be surprised if I hadn't had SOME injury, I'm absolutely shocked I never lost consciousness or had a diagnosed concussion.

I remember a drill we were doing in practice one day. 1 on 1 o-lineman pass blocking vs a d-lineman. The offensive players had their helmets off in order to teach the player to pass block correctly (which I knew and could do better than anyone on the team). So my turn comes up, well me being a 17-18 year old and thinking I'm a bad ass and having a flair for psychological warfare I ignore the purpose of the drill and with my first motion after engaging the defensive lineman I repeatedly headbutt him in the helmet (a move best used when I was wearing my helmet, but still, I used this moment to make my teammates fear and respect me) it shocked the other player so much he stopped the drill and of course I had a bloody nose, but that's the attitude I had.

Whenever I hit someone (and this may be a difference between football and rugby you're looking for james) the points of impact were my shoulders and my forehead (always with my neck bowed to keep me from breaking it)...my hands and forearms were mainly used AFTER the initial impact.

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Originally Posted by 0james0

Having researched it more, they are both equally as dangerous in their own rights.

US football is impact, lots of it, gradual bone crunching above the waist. More tackles as you can hit off the ball and hit most plays.

Rugby is brutal in terms of being stamped on and physical injuries. (see cauliflower ear as an example) You get hit less, but you have no padding.

If there was no padding, American football would have more serious injuries. I think the fact is you need the padding just to play the game.

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THAT is the better understanding.

I've noticed something. Lyle, myself, and Marblehead have had posts that pisses people off where we really don't give a shit. And all 3 of us have played football. Maybe it's brain damage?:p

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Originally Posted by generalbulldog

I've noticed something. Lyle, myself, and Marblehead have had posts that pisses people off where we really don't give a shit. And all 3 of us have played football. Maybe it's brain damage?:p

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Or it could be we're just a-holes.

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Originally Posted by marbleheadmaui

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Originally Posted by generalbulldog

I've noticed something. Lyle, myself, and Marblehead have had posts that pisses people off where we really don't give a shit. And all 3 of us have played football. Maybe it's brain damage?:p

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Or it could be we're just a-holes.

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I've got brain damage ;D