Youth culture - Race etc etc - David Starkey debate!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bAGTE_RGN4c

Quite an interesting debate here and I think a lot of people will agree with David Starkey. Personally, I think he makes some relevant points, but in the main, what he says is very dangerous, divisive and counterproductive. Saying David Lammy ‘Sounds White’ I mean WTF does that mean or insinuate!!

My take on it is that is ‘Youth’ thing not a ‘Black’ thing, but I think there is a reason why a certain group of black kids are rioting, looting etc. It’s because they have no sense of pride for being British and no feeling that there is any hope for them or that working hard and being a good person will actually allow them to have the opportunities they deserve. And I think they probably have a right to feel this way. We need to find a way to get people feeling like a community and being proud of their community and wanting to improve it not destroy it. We need for black kids from Peckham, to have the same opportunities as White kids from Oxford.

I’ve been out of work for a while and I know how easy it is to feel detached and that nobody gives a shit or wants to help you (because they don’t) As long as kids feel there is no hope and they have no respect (i.e. from the police who constantly harass them) etc, why we would we expect them to act any differently? It’s very easy for people to sit in their Ivory towers casting judgement on people, but they don’t live in the neighbourhoods that these kids do and have to wake up every day thinking ‘what’s the point!’

I’m not saying what is going on in our society isn’t completely wrong and that anybody found guilty needs to be dealt with, ‘m just saying we need to actually think a bit more about why this is happening!!

179 views and not single comment - some irony in that taking into context the subject.

I haven't watched the video, but I'll try to comment when I have.

I will say that most people are pretty hesitant to discuss issues like race in the current, overly PC climate. It seems to me that many people are afraid of being labeled as bigoted or something just for speaking their mind.

I'm not from the UK, but I'm fairly familiar with racial conflict and rioting. The area I grew up, the West End of the Inland Empire, of Southern California, has seen riots and race related violence for 40 years. When I was young, 1970, thereabouts it was white vs mexican, then, a few years later, it was the 'cholo' mexicans against the 'white' mexicans. I was in 3rd grade the first time i got 'jumped', by 3 mexican kids.
In the late 70s my neighborhood changed and became, probably, 80% black and this was not the horizon expanding celebration of diversity that one might expect. It was no fun at all, but when you are 14, 15, 16 and like to fight...to quote Richie Giachetti, a good fight is a good fight. But I have friends that are still in prison over things that happened then. For many years I dealt with a lot of animosity, racially oriented, that grew out of that time and I can't and won't apologize for that: it was black guys and there actions that created that.
In Fontana, which was the next town east of where I lived, there was organized KKK activity, a march up Sierra Ave, as late as 1981. I'd guess that 3/4ths of the white guys I grew up with went to the penitentiary, and they came back Nazi Low Riders, with swastika tattoos. South Ontario is home to a very strong mexican gang, and Ralston st has been sending black guys to the pen since the 1950s, that I know of. I know a mexican guy with "Brown Pride" on his arms and a swastika on his chest.
The one thing everybody had in common was nothing: that was all most thought they had. That makes you angry, and I don't think it matters if you listen to rap, heavy metal or whatever, if nothing is all you think you have.
I find it interesting now, looking back, that there is race conflict among poor people on the streets and in the jails, and that we blame each other for our problems. And that the only time we can seem to get along and work together is in a rich man's army fighting some trumped up war.

where i live if you are black you are likely to get stared at a lot in public because most here are not used to seeing that particular darker shade of skin. you won't likely be called any names or treated badly because of the color of your skin, instead people will probably go out of their way to try and be friends with you before even getting to know your character. which might in a way speak a bit in itself. one thing for sure though, you'll be stared at.

now if you are a lighter shade of dark skin, but still more brown then white, and of native indian heritage, you will often be labelled lazy, dirty, a drain upon society and many other things by people from many age groups, and few will give you the benefit of any doubt about character, and will judge you on skin tone alone.

Different groups of humans have different cultural mindsets in terms of education, values, hard work, etc. You don't need a sociologist to tell you this, just observe everyday life if you're living in a multi-racial and multi-cultural society. Hell, just take a look at the various nations and their cultural values placed on this. Of course as someone said, uttering these in public can bring dire consequences and one will be labeled something they're not. But those peer reviewed academic journals I have read when doing reports when I was still in school have all confirmed this. While some political correctness is good, an over abundance of it stifles any reasonable solution or discussion to the problem for fear of being labeled a bigot for pointing out the obvious reasons. It is what it is.

You have four people sitting around trying to make this a race issue. Not one of them fully understands the problem, nor where to find the answers.

I havent watched the video yet but thought I'd just repost this as its pretty much on the money.

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Originally Posted by AdamGB

Fuck no... nobody in Manchester gives a fuck about a gang leader in London (or all the places a Northerner couldn't give a fuck about, London is number one.) and you don't go straight for the 48 inch HD TVs, Bluray players, PS3s, XBOXs, Designer Sportswear etc if you're angry at the establishment.

The shooting may have been the catalyst that set all of this off, but it quickly degraded in to monkey see monkey do and opportunism from a bunch of ignorant, egotistical charvers who have an over inflated sense of entitlement and the exact opposite in the IQ department.

If our society wasn't fucked and so full of idiotic cunts who all think they should live like a premiership footballer without lifting a finger for it and who think that they are something special thanks to the shit media feeds them (see 'Geordie shore' etc) then this wouldn't be going on... regardless of the police dropping the ball and shooting some scumbag.

Only in the UK would people use £400 smart phones whilst wearing £100 tracksuits to organise riots because they 'live in poverty'... and only in the UK would people smash up businesses and set the economy back months or years because they can't get a job.

Drop them in the middle east for 6 months and see what they think.

The economy is hanging on by a thread... lets destroy small businesses and homes! Fucking clowns.

They also think that they're getting at the police... what?! by giving them 1000s in overtime and by increasing their job security by showing that deep budget cuts to the police force would be a bad idea? Idiots... they can lie to themselves and try to justify what they're doing all they want... but they're fooling nobody... and that includes themselves.

Bottom line is that these riots aren't a sudden reaction to anything... just a symptom of the fucked up attitude and ignorance that has infected most of this shitty generation.

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Originally Posted by Memphis

I havent watched the video yet but thought I'd just repost this as its pretty much on the money.

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Originally Posted by AdamGB

Fuck no... nobody in Manchester gives a fuck about a gang leader in London (or all the places a Northerner couldn't give a fuck about, London is number one.) and you don't go straight for the 48 inch HD TVs, Bluray players, PS3s, XBOXs, Designer Sportswear etc if you're angry at the establishment.

The shooting may have been the catalyst that set all of this off, but it quickly degraded in to monkey see monkey do and opportunism from a bunch of ignorant, egotistical charvers who have an over inflated sense of entitlement and the exact opposite in the IQ department.

If our society wasn't fucked and so full of idiotic cunts who all think they should live like a premiership footballer without lifting a finger for it and who think that they are something special thanks to the shit media feeds them (see 'Geordie shore' etc) then this wouldn't be going on... regardless of the police dropping the ball and shooting some scumbag.

Only in the UK would people use £400 smart phones whilst wearing £100 tracksuits to organise riots because they 'live in poverty'... and only in the UK would people smash up businesses and set the economy back months or years because they can't get a job.

Drop them in the middle east for 6 months and see what they think.

The economy is hanging on by a thread... lets destroy small businesses and homes! Fucking clowns.

They also think that they're getting at the police... what?! by giving them 1000s in overtime and by increasing their job security by showing that deep budget cuts to the police force would be a bad idea? Idiots... they can lie to themselves and try to justify what they're doing all they want... but they're fooling nobody... and that includes themselves.

Bottom line is that these riots aren't a sudden reaction to anything... just a symptom of the fucked up attitude and ignorance that has infected most of this shitty generation.

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Yep - but what I'm saying is that the way to solve it is to find out why everything is so fucked.

Not a race thing, not a youth thing but a disaffected group of people who do not care and willing to take a chance to steal material things that they have been socialised to believe they need. Sad people.

Its a lot of their parents who should be hauled before the courts and made to co pay (they let them loose).

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Originally Posted by Andre

Its a lot of their parents who should be hauled before the courts and made to co pay (they let them loose).

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Some of them do not have parents, and the ones that do cannot control them in the first place.

I hated sociology classes in college, totally opposed to my major for the most part. Sociology blames society entirely to much, sure society influences you, but in the end you have free will to decide. I came from a war torn country, was a refugee in germany, we lived off whatever menial wage job the parents could get, yet I never stole, murdered, or did anything worse than gettin behind the wheel a bit intoxicated. Sure it sucks not being able to get a job in the field you want, or a job at all for that matter, but that gives you no right to go out and behave like these fools gave, just creates more problems. They're opportunistic jackasses

Okay, so my first post was before I watched the vid, and just a description of how I view racism and how that applies to the place where I live.

Now that I've watched the vid (well, I tried to but was also DLin porn so obv distracted :lickish:), I get a distinct disconnect between the words under that vid, and the actual vid itself. I can understand the words and maybe even in some context agree with them, but when I watch the vid I just hear a bitter old man going on and on about how it's all the black man's fault because they are black, and even how they Jedi Mind Tricked the stupid young white chavs to trying to be like them, so therefor it is all societies fault! But mostly the black mans.

Am I way off here? What is the consensus?

I'll watch it again later and pay better attention and maybe can make better sense of it. But got stuff to do right now. Bye!

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Originally Posted by Master

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Originally Posted by Andre

Its a lot of their parents who should be hauled before the courts and made to co pay (they let them loose).

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Some of them do not have parents, and the ones that do cannot control them in the first place.

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So like Andre said - they should be punished too for being pathetic.

Why haven't Miles and Bilbo commented on this yet?

This is right up both of your streets. Miles can get a serious "chav" bashing in here.

Come on guys play your role......

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Originally Posted by Fenster

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Originally Posted by Master

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Originally Posted by Andre

Its a lot of their parents who should be hauled before the courts and made to co pay (they let them loose).

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Some of them do not have parents, and the ones that do cannot control them in the first place.

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So like Andre said - they should be punished too for being pathetic.

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Make em clean up and supply labor to rebuild the damaged stores.

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Originally Posted by Fenster

Why haven't Miles and Bilbo commented on this yet?

This is right up both of your streets. Miles can get a serious "chav" bashing in here.

Come on guys play your role......

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While London burned others cried over cool clicks.;)

Well, I think it is just what Cameron and Miliband have said, but their parties are ultimately responsible for the way society has evolved and so are directly accountable for the riots too IMO.

You have schools with no discipline, police with limited power, too many teenage mothers and children being raised with AWOL fathers. We have an increasing problem with youth unemployment, we have immigration that has remained unchecked for well over a generation. We have a society that bails out fraudulent banksters and then expects society to pay in the form of austerity. We have newspapers commiting criminal acts. We have immoral and possibly illegal wars which nobody wants and where the perpetrators run scot free. We have politicians who abuse their status.

All in all it creates a society where there is little respect and people think they are entitled to something for nothing and can have it now. Everyone blames everyone else and nobody wants to hold up their hands and take responsibility. It is from the top, from the bottom and it is feeding into all of society. Britain is indeed a mess and it will take serious efforts to mend it, but the rot is already there for all to see. Chavs hanging out on street corners is nothing new and nor is corporate corruption, but it's time to start challenging it and that means not just going after the rioters, but going after the elite criminals too.

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Originally Posted by miles

Well, I think it is just what Cameron and Miliband have said, but their parties are ultimately responsible for the way society has evolved and so are directly accountable for the riots too IMO.

You have schools with no discipline, police with limited power, too many teenage mothers and children being raised with AWOL fathers. We have an increasing problem with youth unemployment, we have immigration that has remained unchecked for well over a generation. We have a society that bails out fraudulent banksters and then expects society to pay in the form of austerity. We have newspapers commiting criminal acts. We have immoral and possibly illegal wars which nobody wants and where the perpetrators run scot free. We have politicians who abuse their status.

All in all it creates a society where there is little respect and people think they are entitled to something for nothing and can have it now. Everyone blames everyone else and nobody wants to hold up their hands and take responsibility. It is from the top, from the bottom and it is feeding into all of society. Britain is indeed a mess and it will take serious efforts to mend it, but the rot is already there for all to see. Chavs hanging out on street corners is nothing new and nor is corporate corruption, but it's time to start challenging it and that means not just going after the rioters, but going after the elite criminals too.

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http://images.wikia.com/communpedia/...n_speaking.jpg

All rioters with no exception , should have been warned via a loud speaker and given 20 mins to disband and go home.
Then the authorities should have opened fire with live ammunition , to show the who is running the show , all the families of the dead should then have had all wellfare taken away from them ( if on it ). No court appeals should have been allowed , and the bodies should have been made into a biofuel.

this is what i would have done given the chance.

The End.

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Originally Posted by Dark Lord Al

All rioters with no exception , should have been warned via a loud speaker and given 20 mins to disband and go home.
Then the authorities should have opened fire with live ammunition , to show the who is running the show , all the families of the dead should then have had all wellfare taken away from them ( if on it ). No court appeals should have been allowed , and the bodies should have been made into a biofuel.

this is what i would have done given the chance.

The End.

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I absolutely love your way of thinking. You should run for prime minister.

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Originally Posted by Dark Lord Al

All rioters with no exception , should have been warned via a loud speaker and given 20 mins to disband and go home.
Then the authorities should have opened fire with live ammunition , to show the who is running the show , all the families of the dead should then have had all wellfare taken away from them ( if on it ). No court appeals should have been allowed , and the bodies should have been made into a biofuel.

this is what i would have done given the chance.

The End.

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http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:A...YHxXMN0L7OBrhL

[QUOTE=CFH;1002613]

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Originally Posted by miles

Well, I think it is just what Cameron and Miliband have said, but their parties are ultimately responsible for the way society has evolved and so are directly accountable for the riots too IMO.

You have schools with no discipline, police with limited power, too many teenage mothers and children being raised with AWOL fathers. We have an increasing problem with youth unemployment, we have immigration that has remained unchecked for well over a generation. We have a society that bails out fraudulent banksters and then expects society to pay in the form of austerity. We have newspapers commiting criminal acts. We have immoral and possibly illegal wars which nobody wants and where the perpetrators run scot free. We have politicians who abuse their status.

All in all it creates a society where there is little respect and people think they are entitled to something for nothing and can have it now. Everyone blames everyone else and nobody wants to hold up their hands and take responsibility. It is from the top, from the bottom and it is feeding into all of society. Britain is indeed a mess and it will take serious efforts to mend it, but the rot is already there for all to see. Chavs hanging out on street corners is nothing new and nor is corporate corruption, but it's time to start challenging it and that means not just going after the rioters, but going after the elite criminals too.

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http://images.wikia.com/communpedia/...n_speaking.jpg[/QUOTE

Haha

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Originally Posted by Dark Lord Al

All rioters with no exception , should have been warned via a loud speaker and given 20 mins to disband and go home.
Then the authorities should have opened fire with live ammunition , to show the who is running the show , all the families of the dead should then have had all wellfare taken away from them ( if on it ). No court appeals should have been allowed , and the bodies should have been made into a biofuel.

this is what i would have done given the chance.

The End.

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Dam, you sound like me from another thread. :cool:

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Originally Posted by Andre

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Originally Posted by Fenster

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Originally Posted by Master

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Originally Posted by Andre

Its a lot of their parents who should be hauled before the courts and made to co pay (they let them loose).

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Some of them do not have parents, and the ones that do cannot control them in the first place.

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So like Andre said - they should be punished too for being pathetic.

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Make em clean up and supply labor to rebuild the damaged stores.

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Point I was making even the parents cannot control their own kids, who disrepect them too, so why punish them, they may have been kicked out of the house?

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Originally Posted by generalbulldog

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Originally Posted by Dark Lord Al

All rioters with no exception , should have been warned via a loud speaker and given 20 mins to disband and go home.
Then the authorities should have opened fire with live ammunition , to show the who is running the show , all the families of the dead should then have had all wellfare taken away from them ( if on it ). No court appeals should have been allowed , and the bodies should have been made into a biofuel.

this is what i would have done given the chance.

The End.

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I absolutely love your way of thinking. You should run for prime minister.

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I would only do the job if given absolute power.
I promise i will be always fair , but I will not suffer fools , and will rule with an iron fist.

Al you are getting soft, biofuel, where did that come from being environmentally friendly?

OK, I usually like to shy away from these kinds of discussions as somehow some way I always end up being called a racist...which I assure you isn't the case.

Now you may judge for yourself:

The rioting in the UK, the "flash mob" bullcrap happening in Philadelphia, and any other shenanigans going on like those things are not due to race, not due to the economy, or anything else other than an improper and unhealthy sense of entitlement. Just like people who are assholes aren't confined to one specific geo-political point, they aren't confined to one particular race either. I've seen all sorts of people who are for lack of better terms "worthless" and "a waste of life"...I've seen white people like that, black people, asian people, hispanic people, etc so the "Gimme, Gimme, Gimme" mentality isn't confined just to a specific race or section of the country (although I've probably seen the worst of it in rural South Carolina). I've seen panhandlers of all shapes, sizes, creeds, and colors as well as thieves.

As for the economy, I can tell you if people are POOR then they don't rush to the flat screen tvs...if people are in need, they don't go run out and loot smart phones and gaming systems. The heirarchy of needs will tell you that the riots in England are NOT about being cash poor because you can't operate those devices without a home or electricity both of which have their own bills which have to be paid by somebody. These riots didn't strike up out of no where, I remember riots from benefits being taken away from students not too long ago.

As for the "culture" of this uneducated horde...the tattoos everywhere, the sagging clothes, the people who apparently can't tie their shoes or properly wear a hat...it's simply a group of people who have been allowed to run roughshod over authority figures their entire life, their parents didn't parent them, their teachers and principals couldn't discipline them for fear of litigious retaliation, they've not been properly disciplined and therefore have not been properly loved, accepted, and respected and therefore do not fit into our society, they have no place, they want no place.

THIS friends...THIS is what happens when fits of unchecked anger are seen as a child's "expression", this is what happens when everyone gets a trophy, this is what happens when every child is treated as a fucking one in a billion snowflake and all that matters are THEIR feelings...yes children should be loved unconditionally by their parents, but that love should include discipline (and also exercise...but I digress)

I emplore my fellow Saddoboxing members who have children and those who don't...be a parent, be a mentor, not just to the children, but to the parents as well! Individuality and collectivism in their extremes are VERY dangerous and in the western world we walk a fine line, we must learn to maintain balance. Basically if parents went "Dog Whisperer" on their children and actually acted like parents instead of trying to be friends to their kids then we wouldn't have these issues...it wouldn't make the world perfect, but it would be a little bit better.

....end rant

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Originally Posted by Master

Al you are getting soft, biofuel, where did that come from being environmentally friendly?

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Its only so the cunts i shoot can actually do something useful in their lives.

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Originally Posted by CFH

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Originally Posted by Dark Lord Al

All rioters with no exception , should have been warned via a loud speaker and given 20 mins to disband and go home.
Then the authorities should have opened fire with live ammunition , to show the who is running the show , all the families of the dead should then have had all wellfare taken away from them ( if on it ). No court appeals should have been allowed , and the bodies should have been made into a biofuel.

this is what i would have done given the chance.

The End.

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http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:A...YHxXMN0L7OBrhL

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Id take an iron fist over the fucking soft state we have right now in the uk.
mercy is for the weak.

Another reason people are rioting is because THEY HAVE TIME TO...if the state gives you money and the economy sucks and you don't have a job (and most of the bastards with the saggy clothes and sideways caps and the bad attitudes are in that crowd) then you've got plenty of time to sit and stew about how someone else has it better than you or how you can't afford some extravagence like an iPhone or whatever.

If these people had jobs they wouldn't riot... the same is true of the Gulfies, all that money and not jack shit to do but sit in the sandbox


...and on another note I am A-FUCKING-MAZED that the Union that works with Verizon wireless has chosen right now to strike and when I say strike I mean a full blooded "don't dare cross the pickett lines" strike...you know what, fuck those bastards, be happy you've got a job in this economy! I say fire them all and let people who WANT to work in there.

good thread.

in my view they should bring back the cane in school (they wont!) and parents shouldnt be scared to hit their children (not with excessive force!)

The single parent family thing is not always the excuse. These kids dont need the army and they certainly dont always need a father in the life to teach them respect and good manners.

There should be an element of fear in every child in regards to their parents and elders and thats when they learn that respect..without that you have lawlessness.

Starkey was like the governor of Alkatraz in Murder in the first when he was on the stand. If Christian Slater was in that debate he'd have goaded him into saying send the black bastards home for sure ;D

I think the internet, texting, and decrease in actual good old fashioned face to face communication has begot a generation of keyboard warriors and the old addage "out of sight, out of mind" when it comes to feelings has to have an effect on the way these young heathens act.

Imagine, if you will, Person A calling Person B a "Cocksucking knuckle dragging son of a bitch" in two different situations: 1. Where Person A sits comfortably behind a computer screen in the safety of his own home 2. When Person A is face to face with Person B. In situation 1 Person A can only infer how Person B feels through written word, in situation 2 Person A can see a physical and emotional response first hand, one if which he can deduce the cosequences of he will more than likely experience a pause (if he has a conscience) before unleashing any verbal attack on Person B.

I think the internet and texting has created cyber bullies (yes as lame as that sounds for all parties invovled) AND in spite of technological advances good old fashioned bullying is more "hardcore" (to use the parlence of our time) than ever before.


These children lack discipline and they lack respect, and there's more than one way to build those traits....and the best way is not with a belt or a cane (believe it or not).

Guy with over 30,000 posts is slating the emergence of internet forums.

Couldn't. Make. It. up.

Brilliant.

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Originally Posted by Fenster

Guy with over 30,000 posts is slating the emergence of internet forums.

Couldn't. Make. It. up.

Brilliant.

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Ironic in one sense yes, but very true in another. Everyone knows how damned dramatic high school is...now couple that with facebook and twitter (not to mention smart phones and youtube) and well everything gets turned up a few notches. Now when the histrionic teenager says "Everybody hates me!" or "I looked stupid in front of EVERYONE!"...you can literally check and see, when in the olden days the parents could calm the child down and reason with them....now everything is such a big damned deal "omg", "smh", "fml", and so on and so forth.

Laugh if you must but you know it to be true

This.

TMBG - Youth Culture Killed My Dog 1984 demo - YouTube

I don't understand...High school was dramatic? Where did you grow up? Maybe I totally missed out on the experience of entitlement and angst over not having everything...
What I am talking about is people that have nothing in the midst of plenty, are cut off from the hope of achieving any of it, and rebel violently. To say that all these people are lazy or cowardly is just flat out wrong- the lifestyle doesn't allow for laziness or cowardice. And, and here I'll use the word ignorant, saying that the 'criminal types' aren't disciplined by their parents is ignorant.
What do you think is the first step in learning not to give a fuck?

Well maybe not high school is dramatic, but high schoolERS are.