Ortiz, the young southpaw, coming off a career-defining win over highly-touted Andre Berto or Marquez, the future HOF, one of the top Mexican fighters of all time, and who has given Pacquiao fits in the two times they faced eachother?
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Ortiz, the young southpaw, coming off a career-defining win over highly-touted Andre Berto or Marquez, the future HOF, one of the top Mexican fighters of all time, and who has given Pacquiao fits in the two times they faced eachother?
lb for lb marquez
ortiz is much bigger tho, id have to say if the two met just off size ortiz would win
At this point in there careers i would say Ortiz, he has come off the biggest win of his life he's young and hungry plus his condidence is sky high.
Marquez has given Manny Pac fits before but that was awhile back and Marquez is'nt as affective at the higher weights.
He still has the style to trouble the pac man but he isnt as fast as what he was afew years ago and the extra weight will slow him down abit. Where Manny has kept his speed and increased his power moving up the weights.
Ortiz is tougher for PBF
Marquez is tougher for Pac
Styles make fights
Marquez spent 100 years at featherweight. He lost to Floyd at welterweight then jumped straight back down to lightweight. I think it's pretty clear Marquez was never a welter.
Ortiz is naturally much bigger and younger than him. Even if less skilled he is clearly more dangerous.
This is spot on.Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG H
Marquez isn't a welter or he would have remained there or around there after the Floyd failure.
Ortiz just seems too raw to pose any problem for Floyd. There is no doubt at all to the outcome of this fight to me whereas with Manny and Marquez, I believe there is a chance that even with the added weight, Marquez may still pose stylistic problems for Manny.
Based on history, style, and outright talent it's Marquez. JMM has been a thorn in Pac's side for a while. BUT that being said, Ortiz is fresher, he's a go for broke style fighter, he's apparently found his heart, and he's on the upswing.
I fully expect the favorites to prevail in these fights, but to me Ortiz could pull of the upset, I doubt JMM can at this point in time. But Vic does eat a TON of right crosses, so I wouldn't be surprised if he got KO'd
I agree 100%. JMM has always given Pac problems and i expect it to be the same in their next fight, for as long as it last. Ortiz for Mayweather is a tough fight also. A young, hungry southpaw who has the ability to keep coming all night, as long as he fights like he did against Berto.Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG H
I guess I'm the only one picking Marquez to be the tougher opposition. I just have such a hard time seeing Victor Ortiz giving Floyd Mayweather any trouble at all. Where people see his youth and freshness to be an advantage, I see it really as inexperience. Conversely, I don't see how Marquez doesn't win a few stanzas against Pacquiao given that he's arguably won more rounds against Pacquiao than Pacquiao has against him. To me, it's inevitable he makes Pacquiao work for it. Certainly, the favorites should prevail, I just think Manny has a tougher go of it.
if floyd sits ringside at your most recent fight, where you have the best performance of your young career and you end up beating an up and coming superstar...turning you into a young superstar yourself...and he then picks you to fight him as his first fight in over a year.... you can be sure you're gonna get destroyed.
i'd take marquez over ortiz if they met.
The Berto Ortiz is tougher, the Maidana Ortiz not so much.
Marquez and it's not debatable.
I misunderstood the question.
Marquez has already beat Pac twice IMO. However, I believe this Pac, at this weight, is going to stop him.
Ortiz-Floyd is a complete unknown. If Floyd wins easy everyone will say it was expected. If FLoyd loses most "experts" will say he's clearly past his best.
So, on paper, Marquez is a far tougher opponent. If Marquez-Pac is close it will be nothing we haven't seen already.
Even tough Marquez is the smaller man, he is the technician that gives Manny problems.
Marquez
- dominated by Floyd
-Will be competitive against Pac at any weight
-Beats Ortiz @135 Gets Kayoed @147
Ortiz
-Gets dominated by Floyd UD possibly KO
-Gets dominated by Pac KO possibly UD
-Kayoes Marquez @147, loses @135
Marquez p4p
Different sized fighters.
Marquez 1st division 126
Ortiz 1st division 140
I'll bet on Marquez @138 CW
Marquez is an unknown at these weights, he fought the best and looked very average. Ortiz fought a top fighter and won a tough fight.
Ortiz is clearly the bigger opponent, but Marquez has the pedigree. It's a guess as to who is tougher because of the different styles and variables.
I think Mayweather has more chance of stopping Ortiz than he did Marquez.
Just to clarify, I meant to say, will Ortiz be tougher for Mayweather or will Marquez be tougher for Pacquiao?
I suppose that question is to be addressed when Ortiz steps into the ring with Mayweather. Putting in the weight-class as a criteria, Marquez is proven no question.
Ortiz and it is not debatable.Quote:
Originally Posted by FinitoElDinamita
P4P Marquez is a better fighter than Ortiz but how good is he at welterweight.
His only fight at welterweight against Floyd Mayweather, he looked terrible. Being that it was Floyd though, you could point to it being more of a bad matchup for him than the weight or a combination of both.
One thing was clear in that fight was Marquez didn't have power. Mayweather laughed at his punches and i think in his previous fights with Pacquiao that the reason he had so much success was because he was able to get Pacquiao to respect his punching power combined with the fact he had excellent timing, good footwork and he could land in combinations.
What we do know about Ortiz is that his speed, size, ability and most importantly his power have carried up to welterweight and as proof, he is coming off his best win against a top welterweight in Berto who he beat decisively.
Based on their credentials at welterweight, Ortiz is the tougher opponent but if Marquez is able to perform against Pacquiao like he did in their previous fights, he's the tougher opponent.
Did Marquez hit Mayweather once during that whole fight? He's hit Pacquiao before and I believe he'll hit Pacqiuao again, not enough to win, but enough to make it interesting for a few rounds.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pugilistic
He was able to hit him clean a few times and when he did, Mayweather laughed them off.Quote:
Originally Posted by RantcatratDid Marquez hit Mayweather once during that whole fight? He's hit Pacquiao before and I believe he'll hit Pacqiuao again, not enough to win, but enough to make it interesting for a few rounds.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pugilistic
He won't have as much trouble hitting Pacquiao but will he be able to keep Pacquiao away hesitant from coming forward like he did in their other fights ? i don't think so.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rantcatrat
I expect "Surfer Vic" Ortiz to give Duckweather fits, but I don't expect Manny to have any problems with JMM, this isn't the same 2 pugs who fought before, Manny is much better now.
Ortiz is coming off his best win and I believe that is why people think he has any chance in this fight because if you had asked anyone prior to the Berto fight if Ortiz versus Mayweather was even a possiblility, let alone that it has the chance to be at all competitive, it would have been laughed off. Not to beat a dead horse, but this is a guy who quit against a crude slugger in Maidana and looked average against Peterson. Now to forget those fights, and to think he has even a chance against perhaps the greatest fighter of our generation because he beat Andre Berto to me is a mistake. I just don't see it.
Is it possible I'm overrating Mayweather? Certainly. Is he really not as good as he's made out to be? Possible. Because if it is the same Mayweather that is highly regarded in so many boxing circles, I don't think Victor Ortiz stands a chance.
In Marquez, it is possible that he has a chance because he has made both of his fights with Pacquiao very competitive. Marquez will still be able to time Pacquiao and counter Pacquiao. I believe you are right though, at this weight, his punches aren't as powerful, and at this age, his reflexes weren't quite what they were, and that is why Pacquiao should win. However, I guarantee Marquez times Pacquiao with a number of solid counter shots that make the fight interesting at spots.
Interestingly, Nazim Richardson had a different take on it. When asked who would win between Ortiz and Mayweather, he wouldn't answer the question, but he repeated that Ortiz already won considering his background and that he grew up homeless on the streets and now he is getting a pay day against Mayweather. ESNEWS's Channel - YouTube
Good points RantCat, I just don't see Pac-JMM being competitive, whereas, i'm really expecting Ortiz to present Mayweather with some problems. I'm not persay, saying Victor will win, but it could be a close fight that could go either way and I don't see Floyd dominating like he usually does in the final rounds.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rantcatrat
for me its marquez.. in the third match.. it will be a awesome fight..
Personally I think Ortiz because I think he is gonna take Mayweather out. I see history repeating itself again as in 1991 and 2003/4. In 1991 Sugar Ray Leonard came out of almost 2 years of inactivity and got scrambled by Terry Norris. In 2003/2004 Roy Jones Jr who was thought unbeatable was lucky to escape with a win then taken out in 2 rounds by Antonio Tarver.
Both Leonard and Jones relied on incredible speed and when they slowed half a step in seemed they were highly beatable. Mayweather I believe will meet the same fate on September 17th.
As i have said many times before, just my opinion--I may be wrong (and have been many times here in the last 8 years).
Do you believe Mayweather relies on speed or athleticism in the same way Jones did?Quote:
Originally Posted by Jody Lane
I think that both always came in at the best possible shape, but both used their speed as their great equalizer. But I think that Mayweather is better all around fighter than Jones was in terms of technique and skill. But unless he has a plan B for somehow fighting Ortiz totally on the inside and using subtle head movement to make Ortiz miss, I think he is going to slow down over night and be a sitting duck. I am using boxing history as my guide and my feeling that he may have taken too long a vacation this time. Just my thoughts. I think he should be studying films of Archie Moore right now. And in case any one wonders about another fighter linked to Mayweather, I think Pac has been spoon fed enough lately that he may be in trouble in November. If you didn't have the knockdowns in the first two fights, JMM would have won them. Forget the weight difference. On a skill level JMM may just be the better boxer.Quote:
Originally Posted by RantcatratDo you believe Mayweather relies on speed or athleticism in the same way Jones did?Quote:
Originally Posted by Jody Lane
I'm almost positive that Mayweather will walk right through Oritz. However, I am completely positive that Pacquiao is going to blow Marquez right out of the water.
JMM was the better fighter over the course of his career, obviously, but he's badly faded now. He won't see the 6th round this time.
JMM has faded, but I really don't see how he doesn't make it a bit interesting just based on the fact that he intimately knows Pac's style. The way he has learned to fight Pac isn't just forgotten. Pac has gotten better over the last couple of years, but recall, after the first Marquez fight, many said that Pac would crush Marquez in the second fight because he had developed a right hook. And that's not what happened.Quote:
Originally Posted by CFH
I really don't see how Ortiz competes with Mayweather. He's not bigger. He's not more skilled. He's not faster. He's not more experienced. He's not better or even with Mayweather in one single category other than his youth and I'm not sure that is an advantage because he's probably not in his prime.
Excellent question & topic!
Marquez is the better fighter but having to come up to Welter & his advancing age has me leaning towards Ortiz as the tougher opponent, plus add in Mayweather's inactivity
In saying that Marquez gave Pac hell twice & has proven his worth & is still one of the best counter punchers in the game & Ortiz is fighting Mayweather so it is always going to be an uphill battle for him...
Damn hard to say really when all the variables are weighed up... can I say 50/50?
I voted Ortiz. Pac has already faced Marquez and knows what is getting himself into.
I'll eat crow if Ortiz presents Mayweather with any sort of problem and if Marquez doesn't cause any problems for Pacquiao.Quote:
Originally Posted by BoxingGorilla
Truthfully, I believe there is confusion between Ortiz being the best opponent at 147 for Mayweather other than Pacquiao and Ortiz actually being a tough fight for Mayweather. The two are not the same. Similarly, I believe there is confusion with the Marquez fight happening at 147, not 140 or 135, and, thus, Marquez won't be able to match up with Pacquiao effectively. People are angry that the fight is happening at all because they want Pacquiao to fight Mayweather with the tests and/or because they view Marquez as passed it and isn't suited to the weight class. Some of that sentiment is warranted, but it shouldn't be confused with the fact that Marquez will still be a tough outing for Pacquiao just look at the empirical evidence.
Teddy Atlas agrees with me although I'm not sure if that is good for my point.
I get what your getting at now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rantcatrat
When i voted for Ortiz, it was based on his credentials compared to Marquez's at 147 which he clearly wins at the moment.
Based on style matchups though, Marquez is easily the tougher opponent for Pacquiao than Ortiz is for Mayweather.
What might affect Marquez is the weight. We still don't know how good he can be at 147.
You still find Teddy Atlas reliable??? Where are those emails that he claimed existed? I don't give credibility to any word he says after that ...... and to think that I have the same sentiment as his with regards to the title question.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rantcatrat
Marquez will be tougher. His age can be looked at in another way as experience. Like what I wrote in another thread, if we are not to include what a number of people consider as his controversial loses (to Pacquiao and Chris John), then he hasn't lost to anyone not named Mayweather since 1999. And all his wins by decision in the past 10 years hasn't even been close.
Ortiz' young age, on the other hand, can be considered as inexperience. That showed in his recklessness when he fought Berto whereby he was dropped a couple of times. The smart PBF will take advantage of this.
Marquez is by far the more skilled, and I would say mentally tougher of the two, while Ortiz is younger/fresher, bigger, and stronger than JMM. Styles make fights, and for me I would say that for Manny, JMM is tougher and for Floyd, Ortiz is tougher. JMM has a great chin, is a crafty counter puncher, and "gets up" for Manny, meaning he fights at his best against Manny (kinda like Barrera did against Morales, Bowe against Holyfield, Holy against Tyson...etc.). Floyd is a slightly larger, faster, and slicker version of JMM, and this made Floyd's fight with him a blowout. Floyd doesn't have Manny's punch or all out offense, so it will take him longer to get Ortiz out of there than it would for Manny, since Ortiz would get caught and overwhelmed against a whirlwind like Manny. So just to clear it up, Ortiz is the easier fight for Manny, and JMM is the easier fight for Floyd.