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Prime vs prime
RJJ reflexes for defense or Floyd's shell?
Only prime vs prime... of course we all know what happened to roy once he slowed down so forget the decline period... Just which was do you think was/is a more difficult obstacle if you were the opponent?
Floyd doesn't use a shell. Winky Wright and Clottey have used the shell. Hands high, gloves covering face, arms in tight so you don't have much to hit except for the forearms.
Mayweather uses the shoulder roll and anticipation which isn't a shell defense. He looks to counter shots while the "shell guys" like Wright and Clottey just stand there and try to block and when you finish throwing they try to throw back.
As for RJJ's speed during his prime vs Floyd's shoulder roll, I think Floyd's defense is better. While Floyd did avoid a few fighters, he faced better competition as a whole than Roy did during his prime.
I'll take Mayweather's defence over Jones' any day.
As an attribute? I'd take Jones phenomenal reflex and instinct. It was a double edge sword for the other guy, from defense to offense in the blink of an eye often with emphatic WTF impact.
Floyd's defense is based off of the Philly Shell.. in fact the "shoulder Roll" is just another name for it.... The first name and most known is "the philly shell"Quote:
Originally Posted by captainanddew
I must didnt ask the question correctly???
Which do you guys think was more/is of an obstacle, or which would you rather face if you were the opponent? I'm not asking which would you rather as a skill for yourself... Which do you think you would stand the better chance against?
I guess I would rather face someone like Jones. Because he wasn't technically sound like Mayweather, there was a much smaller margin of error for him. Even in his prime, if he had made a mistake you could have made him pay. With Mayweather, because he's so technically sound, even it's much less likely that he makes a mistake, and even if he does he's in a position to mitigate any damage that is caused.Quote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweather
Just my $0.02.
Interesting point... I actually saw it in the complete reversal. Not 1-1 translation though... I've seen floyd with all of technical sound skill and defense be caught several time by guys who weren't that fast. Where as Jones, I can only think of maybe once during his prime where he took a flush punch. I mean in real time, it took 15 years before he was hit with a flush enough shot to kayo him. Not too mention, floyd was easier to walk down because no one really feared his power despite his remarkable defense. I think as someone said earlier, if you missed a shot on Jones it could have been the end of the night.Quote:
Originally Posted by CFHI guess I would rather face someone like Jones. Because he wasn't technically sound like Mayweather, there was a much smaller margin of error for him. Even in his prime, if he had made a mistake you could have made him pay. With Mayweather, because he's so technically sound, even it's much less likely that he makes a mistake, and even if he does he's in a position to mitigate any damage that is caused.Quote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweather
Just my $0.02.
I mean really Jones's style and defense was one big mistake or flaw. All of what made it work was the price he made you pay trying to capitalize, if at all possible in first place. What he had you can't train or relate to many different fighters. I'm the furthest thing from a Roy defender but while Mayweather is a defense wiz he, I believe, is more familiar to war-game against and set plan of attack for. Floyd has mad defense knowledge and reverse gear but between the two he was the far more 'common' style of the two as far as boxing 101. What really makes it for me is the price guys payed trying to penetrate each defense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spicoli
That's what I thinking. Floyd is superb, but because he's still conventional in a sense he's much easier to set a game plan against. I mean floyd was arguably outboxed by castillo over twelve rounds. And that's when he actually used more defense.. meaning he still used a lot of lateral movement plus the shell, now he doesn't use his legs as much.
The term "Philly Shell" is new to me; I'd never heard it until recently. What Mayweather does has its roots back in the bare knuckle days, when it made more sense to duck, slip, or parry punches than to block them directly. And, until recently, the shoulder roll was not some guru-land, mystical defensive move. That is what you were taught, as opposed to blocking punches with the left hand, which prevents you from countering with that hand.
The style that Mayweather uses is superior because you don't have to react to every punch to avoid being hit by it.
floyd fought much better guys in his prime than Jones!!! It wasn't that hard for Roy to avoid being hit when he was fighting cops, firefighters, and cab drivers.Quote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweatherInteresting point... I actually saw it in the complete reversal. Not 1-1 translation though... I've seen floyd with all of technical sound skill and defense be caught several time by guys who weren't that fast. Where as Jones, I can only think of maybe once during his prime where he took a flush punch. I mean in real time, it took 15 years before he was hit with a flush enough shot to kayo him. Not too mention, floyd was easier to walk down because no one really feared his power despite his remarkable defense. I think as someone said earlier, if you missed a shot on Jones it could have been the end of the night.Quote:
Originally Posted by CFHI guess I would rather face someone like Jones. Because he wasn't technically sound like Mayweather, there was a much smaller margin of error for him. Even in his prime, if he had made a mistake you could have made him pay. With Mayweather, because he's so technically sound, even it's much less likely that he makes a mistake, and even if he does he's in a position to mitigate any damage that is caused.Quote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweather
Just my $0.02.
I am a huge fan of Roy. He had freakish athleticism.Quote:
Originally Posted by captainanddewfloyd fought much better guys in his prime than Jones!!! It wasn't that hard for Roy to avoid being hit when he was fighting cops, firefighters, and cab drivers.Quote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweatherInteresting point... I actually saw it in the complete reversal. Not 1-1 translation though... I've seen floyd with all of technical sound skill and defense be caught several time by guys who weren't that fast. Where as Jones, I can only think of maybe once during his prime where he took a flush punch. I mean in real time, it took 15 years before he was hit with a flush enough shot to kayo him. Not too mention, floyd was easier to walk down because no one really feared his power despite his remarkable defense. I think as someone said earlier, if you missed a shot on Jones it could have been the end of the night.Quote:
Originally Posted by CFHI guess I would rather face someone like Jones. Because he wasn't technically sound like Mayweather, there was a much smaller margin of error for him. Even in his prime, if he had made a mistake you could have made him pay. With Mayweather, because he's so technically sound, even it's much less likely that he makes a mistake, and even if he does he's in a position to mitigate any damage that is caused.Quote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweather
Just my $0.02.
I was once a huge fan of Floyd (before he stopped taking risks).
While Floyd had alot of fights that could have been made (Kostya, PW-147 version, Cotto-pre Margarito beatdown, Margarito, ), he still faced pretty good competition.
Roy's competition left alot to be desired. Would Roy have been caught more if he faced better guys? Maybe. My heart (as a fan) thinks he couldn't have been hit alot by anyone during his athletic prime. But my head tells me we never saw him push himself during that time and thus we are left with question marks.
Tell me, who at the time of roy's prime would you have had him face that he didn't?Quote:
Originally Posted by captainanddewI am a huge fan of Roy. He had freakish athleticism.Quote:
Originally Posted by captainanddewfloyd fought much better guys in his prime than Jones!!! It wasn't that hard for Roy to avoid being hit when he was fighting cops, firefighters, and cab drivers.Quote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweatherInteresting point... I actually saw it in the complete reversal. Not 1-1 translation though... I've seen floyd with all of technical sound skill and defense be caught several time by guys who weren't that fast. Where as Jones, I can only think of maybe once during his prime where he took a flush punch. I mean in real time, it took 15 years before he was hit with a flush enough shot to kayo him. Not too mention, floyd was easier to walk down because no one really feared his power despite his remarkable defense. I think as someone said earlier, if you missed a shot on Jones it could have been the end of the night.Quote:
Originally Posted by CFHI guess I would rather face someone like Jones. Because he wasn't technically sound like Mayweather, there was a much smaller margin of error for him. Even in his prime, if he had made a mistake you could have made him pay. With Mayweather, because he's so technically sound, even it's much less likely that he makes a mistake, and even if he does he's in a position to mitigate any damage that is caused.Quote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweather
Just my $0.02.
I was once a huge fan of Floyd (before he stopped taking risks).
While Floyd had alot of fights that could have been made (Kostya, PW-147 version, Cotto-pre Margarito beatdown, Margarito, ), he still faced pretty good competition.
Roy's competition left alot to be desired. Would Roy have been caught more if he faced better guys? Maybe. My heart (as a fan) thinks he couldn't have been hit alot by anyone during his athletic prime. But my head tells me we never saw him push himself during that time and thus we are left with question marks.
BHOP and P4P #1 JT > anyone on PBF's resume....Quote:
Originally Posted by captainanddewI am a huge fan of Roy. He had freakish athleticism.Quote:
Originally Posted by captainanddewfloyd fought much better guys in his prime than Jones!!! It wasn't that hard for Roy to avoid being hit when he was fighting cops, firefighters, and cab drivers.Quote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweatherInteresting point... I actually saw it in the complete reversal. Not 1-1 translation though... I've seen floyd with all of technical sound skill and defense be caught several time by guys who weren't that fast. Where as Jones, I can only think of maybe once during his prime where he took a flush punch. I mean in real time, it took 15 years before he was hit with a flush enough shot to kayo him. Not too mention, floyd was easier to walk down because no one really feared his power despite his remarkable defense. I think as someone said earlier, if you missed a shot on Jones it could have been the end of the night.Quote:
Originally Posted by CFHI guess I would rather face someone like Jones. Because he wasn't technically sound like Mayweather, there was a much smaller margin of error for him. Even in his prime, if he had made a mistake you could have made him pay. With Mayweather, because he's so technically sound, even it's much less likely that he makes a mistake, and even if he does he's in a position to mitigate any damage that is caused.Quote:
Originally Posted by JonesJrMayweather
Just my $0.02.
I was once a huge fan of Floyd (before he stopped taking risks).
While Floyd had alot of fights that could have been made (Kostya, PW-147 version, Cotto-pre Margarito beatdown, Margarito, ), he still faced pretty good competition.
Roy's competition left alot to be desired. Would Roy have been caught more if he faced better guys? Maybe. My heart (as a fan) thinks he couldn't have been hit alot by anyone during his athletic prime. But my head tells me we never saw him push himself during that time and thus we are left with question marks.
I would personally prefer to fight Floyd, he has never had the devastating one-punch KO ability that Jones had, and he was just much more flexible offensively, which in turn makes him very difficult to break down. Cutting off the ring is one thing, but as someone else said, swinging and missing against him is the end of your night, and so you have a dilemma: attack and possibly end up on the canvas, or sit back and end up on the canvas. Personally I think it would be better to let Roy come to you, try and bait him into a big shot, use lateral movement to overstretch him on the attack and time those counters perfectly, though this option obviously predicates a specific skill set. Floyd on the other hand is much 'easier' in theory, to break down. DLH almost did it. Many think Castillo did do it, and certainly if I had the skills and athleticism I would rather mix it with Floyd than with RJJ. Even if you do get hit with PBF you're gonna feel pretty safe, you're gonna feel you can take another step, encroach a little more on his territory and make him pay. Opening up that defense requires a variation of quick combinations that most fighters would find unnatural, though. I think in many ways Marquez had the skills, but was at too much of a physical disadvantage to properly apply them. What he does use a lot, which many fighters don't, is the upper cut, and he uses it in combination with straight punches and hooks. If you could back Floyd up with the jab, pressure him into his shell, and lay off combinations of punches including upper cuts to the solar plexus/chin, straight punches to the face and hooks to the body/temple, I think you're gonna connect with some nice shots, and if he's ever in trouble you only need enough gas in the tank to finish him. Of course, easier said than done.
Great answer...Quote:
Originally Posted by SRR