Sergio Martinez to say he is one of the best pound for pound fighter's no way, i have seen some of the best.and he is no Hagler.:sheep:
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Sergio Martinez to say he is one of the best pound for pound fighter's no way, i have seen some of the best.and he is no Hagler.:sheep:
Hagler was the best middleweight ever, IMO, Martinez is not in the same league.
Yes i go with that.:sheep:
Martinez is over rated just amongst the boxers around today
IMO he is starting to earn his top 10 lb4lb status
theres no way he has been 3rd for as long as people seem to think
That's hardly a fair comparison though. Besides Hagler was a career middleweight whereas Martinez started out at welterweight. He's obviously not as good a middleweight champ as Hagler but he's still very decent, and it would have been fun to see him against the middleweight Duran.
I'm warming to him. He's a very good fighter imo.
I don't think he's a true top 3 p4p caliber fighter generally, but right now, with most of the top guys of the last 10 years or so retiring or on the decline he is pretty much the third best fighter after Mayweather and Pacquiao imo.
If you discount the Klitschko's as they are heavyweights, he's as dominant a champ in his weight class as it's possible to be right now.
Mayweather, Pacquiao, Martinez and Donaire pretty much deserve their current status as the top 4 now imo, although I do think both Martinez, and especially Donaire, were credited with it too soon.
If B Hop manages to beat Bad Chad in a fortnight however I might well put him back up at 3 as his resume in the sport is exceptional.
There is only one Hagler. Martinez is the best at the moment. Hope he gets the big career defining fights like Margarito, Cotto and Floyd.
When we taik about pound for pound fighter's today Martinez is good,but not great, Hagler was just one of the best middleweight's of all time.So this pound for pound rateing of Martinez to me a joke, a good fighter that's all no more.:sheep::sheep:
Well nobody is rating Martinez p4p all time :confused: He's just one of the top 10 p4p at the moment.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dia bando
Do you think he is a top 10pp fighter i dont rate him,people seem to think he is a bit of a superstar.Hagler there's a superstar.:sheep:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dia bando
....at the moment, top 10 p4p? Yes, without a doubt!
Right, not a fair comparison at all, since Sergio hasn't been a Middleweight most of his career.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
As for the current P4P rankings, Martinez should be ranked 2nd or 3rd, depending on if you like him better than Donaire. Mayweather, because of his inactivity the last 5 years, should not even be in the P4P rankings, that's an insult to Pugs who fight regularly.
I sorta agree with you there. Why does a win over Ortiz merit instant #2 p4p status? Ortiz is the same guy that quit against Maidana and drew against Peterson. He was a mega underdog. But, that's a different thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mars_axRight, not a fair comparison at all, since Sergio hasn't been a Middleweight most of his career.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
As for the current P4P rankings, Martinez should be ranked 2nd or 3rd, depending on if you like him better than Donaire. Mayweather, because of his inactivity the last 5 years, should not even be in the P4P rankings, that's an insult to Pugs who fight regularly.
Clearly, Martinez is no Marvin Hagler. However, he is the current lineal middleweight champion. My only thing is that beating Barker and Lee or Macklin are good wins but not great. The only way Sergio overtakes Pacquiao or Mayweather in my opinion is if he beats them (which won't happen because they won't fight him), they lose, or he goes up and beats Bute at 166, which I also believe won't happen because Bute won't offer enough $. Cleaning out the division is the next best thing, I guess.
Martinez resume is kinda weak compared to a lot of the fighters in the past. Pavlik a drunk already got his ass handed to him by Hopkins. Then you have Willames he he lost a close fight with then knocked out Willams but through his whole resume his beast win is a peak Willaims which is ok but not really great. He is a good fighter but if wants to go down as great going to have to go up to 168. I do not think he has it in him to go to that weight and win but we while have to see.
Or he goes back down to 154 and beats the best in a division that appears to be pretty deep. Cotto is the biggest money-making fight for him now and a future hall of famer. That's who he should target. I don't think he has the size to be successful at 168 and it's dangerous for an older fighter to go down in weight after putting on the mass to be at 160.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr140
It's all good and dandy to look at things in 20/20 hindsight, but I think you should reconsider a little bit.
Drunk as he may be, who else has Pavlik lost to other than Martinez? Only Hopkins - a future HOF and Hopkins did it 10 pounds north of 160. Pavlik had dominated Jermain Taylor who beat Hopkins. To further put it in perspective, after losing badly to Hopkins, in his next outing, Pavlik stopped a game Rubio, the same Rubio who has been a roll now and is ranked in the top five of every major organization. In addition, Pavlik was a 2-1 favorite going into the fight with Martinez. When he fought Williams, nobody wanted to fight Williams. Williams had just dominated Winkey Wright and had beat up Verno Phillips. He was a massive underdog in that fight. Williams had been coined the "most feared fighter" on the planet. In my eyes, he beat Paul Williams twice.
Lastly, Sergio finishes fights like a champion. This is a fighter who started out as a welterweight and now is knocking legitimate middleweights out the box. He's a two division champion. It's impressive.
Hagler is perhaps the greatest middleweight of all-time. Hopkins had a decade long reign at middleweight. He's not there either. How about a comparison to Jermain Taylor or Kelly Pavlik's reign? He compares well with them.
Lou Dibella said Martinez won't go to Germany after seeing Macklin lose against Sturm in Germany. I believe it may be worth him taking the risk. It's a winnable fight for him and it does the most for his legacy right now although I guess a win over Macklin is comparable.
Based on me watching Barker try and imitate a high guarded european fighter and giving Martinez some problems, I actually think Felix Sturm (or whatever his name is) would give him a really good fight... I could see Felix winning.
I wonder what Bernard Hopkins thinks of him???
Well Pavlik was a good champ had some good wins a while ago but since the lose to Hopkins his mental been fucked. Paul in the first fight i thought did enough to win it Martinez good fighter but eh i dont know.
Pavlik beat Rubio after he lost to Hopkins.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr140
And the 41 wins before that. It would be an absurdity to not have Floyd at number 2 behind Manny, clearly he's the best p4p fighter in the world and has been for years. Only Manny can seriously challenge him on that front.Quote:
Originally Posted by RantcatratQuote:
Originally Posted by Mars_axRight, not a fair comparison at all, since Sergio hasn't been a Middleweight most of his career.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
As for the current P4P rankings, Martinez should be ranked 2nd or 3rd, depending on if you like him better than Donaire. Mayweather, because of his inactivity the last 5 years, should not even be in the P4P rankings, that's an insult to Pugs who fight regularly.
I sorta agree with you there. Why does a win over Ortiz merit instant #2 p4p status? Ortiz is the same guy that quit against Maidana and drew against Peterson. He was a mega underdog. But, that's a different thread.
Clearly, Martinez is no Marvin Hagler. However, he is the current lineal middleweight champion. My only thing is that beating Barker and Lee or Macklin are good wins but not great. The only way Sergio overtakes Pacquiao or Mayweather in my opinion is if he beats them (which won't happen because they won't fight him), they lose, or he goes up and beats Bute at 166, which I also believe won't happen because Bute won't offer enough $. Cleaning out the division is the next best thing, I guess.
To have him lower, or not include to make some kind of 'point' is just stupid.
Love him or hate him Floyd is as acomplished and complete a fighter as there has been in the last 15 years.
Eh rubio not really that great of a win to honest i mean kinda shows how week divsion is when you bring a name up like that. I am just saying his resume kinda week to what most have been in past.
You can think i'm stupid, but like I said, Mayweather doesn't fight often enough to be in the current P4P rankings, that's just the way I see it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
No i dont think you are stupid Floyd is a great fighter.;D
I agree with that. I just believe his wins at welterweight haven't been as impressive as his prior wins were, but the welterweight division isn't that deep so it makes sense that he is forced to fight Victor Ortiz.Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboAnd the 41 wins before that. It would be an absurdity to not have Floyd at number 2 behind Manny, clearly he's the best p4p fighter in the world and has been for years. Only Manny can seriously challenge him on that front.Quote:
Originally Posted by RantcatratQuote:
Originally Posted by Mars_axRight, not a fair comparison at all, since Sergio hasn't been a Middleweight most of his career.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
As for the current P4P rankings, Martinez should be ranked 2nd or 3rd, depending on if you like him better than Donaire. Mayweather, because of his inactivity the last 5 years, should not even be in the P4P rankings, that's an insult to Pugs who fight regularly.
I sorta agree with you there. Why does a win over Ortiz merit instant #2 p4p status? Ortiz is the same guy that quit against Maidana and drew against Peterson. He was a mega underdog. But, that's a different thread.
Clearly, Martinez is no Marvin Hagler. However, he is the current lineal middleweight champion. My only thing is that beating Barker and Lee or Macklin are good wins but not great. The only way Sergio overtakes Pacquiao or Mayweather in my opinion is if he beats them (which won't happen because they won't fight him), they lose, or he goes up and beats Bute at 166, which I also believe won't happen because Bute won't offer enough $. Cleaning out the division is the next best thing, I guess.
To have him lower, or not include to make some kind of 'point' is just stupid.
Love him or hate him Floyd is as acomplished and complete a fighter as there has been in the last 15 years.
If Sergio went up in weight and beat Lucian Bute at 166, would you move him up the list?Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboAnd the 41 wins before that. It would be an absurdity to not have Floyd at number 2 behind Manny, clearly he's the best p4p fighter in the world and has been for years. Only Manny can seriously challenge him on that front.Quote:
Originally Posted by RantcatratQuote:
Originally Posted by Mars_axRight, not a fair comparison at all, since Sergio hasn't been a Middleweight most of his career.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
As for the current P4P rankings, Martinez should be ranked 2nd or 3rd, depending on if you like him better than Donaire. Mayweather, because of his inactivity the last 5 years, should not even be in the P4P rankings, that's an insult to Pugs who fight regularly.
I sorta agree with you there. Why does a win over Ortiz merit instant #2 p4p status? Ortiz is the same guy that quit against Maidana and drew against Peterson. He was a mega underdog. But, that's a different thread.
Clearly, Martinez is no Marvin Hagler. However, he is the current lineal middleweight champion. My only thing is that beating Barker and Lee or Macklin are good wins but not great. The only way Sergio overtakes Pacquiao or Mayweather in my opinion is if he beats them (which won't happen because they won't fight him), they lose, or he goes up and beats Bute at 166, which I also believe won't happen because Bute won't offer enough $. Cleaning out the division is the next best thing, I guess.
To have him lower, or not include to make some kind of 'point' is just stupid.
Love him or hate him Floyd is as acomplished and complete a fighter as there has been in the last 15 years.
On the other hand i've never been big fan of Haggler. "Marvelous Marvin" was never fast. His punches were heavy but not fast. He couldn't beat even old Duran and lost to Sugar Ray Leonard.
Though many people love to live in past time paradise i still argue that Haggler would be too slow for modern middleweight boxing.
Well I have Sergio at 3 currently pending the Hopkins result next week.Quote:
Originally Posted by RantcatratIf Sergio went up in weight and beat Lucian Bute at 166, would you move him up the list?Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboAnd the 41 wins before that. It would be an absurdity to not have Floyd at number 2 behind Manny, clearly he's the best p4p fighter in the world and has been for years. Only Manny can seriously challenge him on that front.Quote:
Originally Posted by RantcatratQuote:
Originally Posted by Mars_axRight, not a fair comparison at all, since Sergio hasn't been a Middleweight most of his career.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
As for the current P4P rankings, Martinez should be ranked 2nd or 3rd, depending on if you like him better than Donaire. Mayweather, because of his inactivity the last 5 years, should not even be in the P4P rankings, that's an insult to Pugs who fight regularly.
I sorta agree with you there. Why does a win over Ortiz merit instant #2 p4p status? Ortiz is the same guy that quit against Maidana and drew against Peterson. He was a mega underdog. But, that's a different thread.
Clearly, Martinez is no Marvin Hagler. However, he is the current lineal middleweight champion. My only thing is that beating Barker and Lee or Macklin are good wins but not great. The only way Sergio overtakes Pacquiao or Mayweather in my opinion is if he beats them (which won't happen because they won't fight him), they lose, or he goes up and beats Bute at 166, which I also believe won't happen because Bute won't offer enough $. Cleaning out the division is the next best thing, I guess.
To have him lower, or not include to make some kind of 'point' is just stupid.
Love him or hate him Floyd is as acomplished and complete a fighter as there has been in the last 15 years.
Were he to beat Bute, that would be an outstanding win, but it wouldn't put him above Manny or Floyd as they are winning fights 4 divisions or more above their starting weight class as a matter of routine. It would undoubtably stamp his claim as a Hall of Famer and mark him out as one of boxing's elite though, below the level of Hopkins but maybe on a level with Oscar and Mosley.
It's much easier to win fights in 4 division when these are 130-147 lbs than those of 154-175 lbs. Or lets say heavy, cruiser, lightheavy and supermiddleweight.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
You can compare swimmer Phelps winning tens of olympic gold metals to those of Bekele or Usain Bolt.
Eh the more i look at Serigos record as a whole more i see how week it really is i still dont have a problem with his position. All i am saying is if Hopkins wins no doubt he should be above him.
If Hopkins wins, he should probably be above him and the only way I could see Martinez regaining that position is if he went up in weight to beat Bute or beat Mayweather or Pacquiao at 154. Would unifying all the belts at middleweight do it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr140
Who are you talking about having gone from 130-147 though? Manny has gone from 106 to a catchweight at 150 and Floyd has gone from 130-154.Quote:
Originally Posted by Matias64It's much easier to win fights in 4 division when these are 130-147 lbs than those of 154-175 lbs. Or lets say heavy, cruiser, lightheavy and supermiddleweight.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
You can compare swimmer Phelps winning tens of olympic gold metals to those of Bekele or Usain Bolt.
Martinez has gone from 147 to 160.
So Manny has risen 42 lbs
Floyd 24lbs
Martinez 13 lbs
I think Martinez has come along fine for a late bloomer but Hagler's resume is one earned with blood and sweat. Martinez has to break a sweat just to look at Marvin's accomplishments.
Marvin Hagler was a great fighter, back in the day;s of 15 round fight's he was the man,in the 80's so when i see some of today's middleweight's,sorry to say very poor. Forget about B Hopp he is like watching paint dry, it's a great pity there are no fighter's about like Marvin back in the good old day's.;D:sheep:
Listen, Martinez isn't even the best middleweight to come out of Argentina -- that belongs to Carlos Monzon -- let alone Marvelous Marvin Hagler. However, he's a good champion and there is no need to put down his accomplishments.Quote:
Originally Posted by johnsebastianmiran
Middleweight has been pretty weak for a while.
Hopkins cleaned it out a while ago
Taylor was always shaky and never let you feel like you were comfortable with him
Pavlik did his thing.
How would Martinez faired against say Prime Pavlik, Taylor, Abraham, Miranda?
You cant take anything away from Martinez he can only fight who's in front of him
Quote:
Originally Posted by JT Rock
To be honest, I believe the middleweight division, and the cruiserweight division for that matter, get a bad rap for being weak whereas other divisions that are just top heavy are thought to be deep. For example, I believe the welterweight division isn't very strong. Who is there after the top two? Berto? Ortiz? Brooks? Mike Jones? Really? Likewise, at light welterweight, there is Khan, Bradley, Maidana, Matthysse and that's it. If Khan vacated and went up to welterweight, there would be only three legitimate guys.
Middleweight right now has Martinez, Pirog, Sturm, Macklin, Geale, Golovkin, N'Jikam, Proksa and Chavez Jr. if you count him. The cruiserweight division has Cunningham, Huck, Hernandez, Wlodarczyk, Lebedev, Ross, Tarver, Green, and Jones. They're both not half-bad.
Cleaning out the middleweight division and in the process beating guys like Pirog, Geale, and Macklin would be a fine achievement for Martinez although so would dropping down to junior middleweight and doing the same thing.
I get it Rat, I guess I should of prefaced it by saying Blockbuster type matchups. The guys you mentioned arent going to pay a lick, except maybe JCCjr in Mexico.
Martinez and Dibella are clamoring for big time fights, Martinez realistically has how many great fight left in him at 37? his style is based on Reflexes and Speed. They are looking to cash in and justifiably so.
I cant think of any other $$$$$$$$$$$$ fights with him at middle.
154 he has some options, I think he may get Floyd in the next 2 years? but he is stuck and screwed at 160. From a purist standpoint a Macklin fight is good but from the box office maybe not. Let me rephrase that, Sergio will have to take his show to europe to get a decent payday. I would love to see him fight Ward at a 165
That's 100% right. I think he'd earn a nice pay day against Macklin for St. Paddy's day in the New York area. At the same time, HBO should buy Pirog v. Geale and pair the winners up. Other than that though, you are correct.Quote:
Originally Posted by JT Rock