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Not that I did before, but after watching the Barker fight yesterday, either Barker is in the top 10 of the mythical P4P lists (which he's not) or Martinez is not as good as he's been labelled.
Barker did really well yes, but Martinez is a long way away from being near the top 2.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 0james0
im starting to think Martinez is top 10 lb4lb coz he is definately the dominate champion of his division
you hit the nail on the head tho when you said he is nowhere near the top 2
it was as if people were having manny, floyd and martinez as their top 3 and then everyone else
when in reality by a long distance it is manny and floyd and then everyone else
I personally find it hard to see how people can put martinez above hopkins and the klits, then you could argue about his credentials against the rest of the field
In my opinion wlad klitschko should b in the top 3 purely because he constantly cleans the division out and is forced to fight prospects, he also holds most of the belts.
He knocked out an unbeaten, unexposed naturally bigger man than himself. And a fighter that he clearly took lightly.
Martinez did a perfect job in solidifying his no.3 ranking.
I saw nothing wrong with Martinez performance. He was clearly toying with Barker.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 0james0
Since winning the Middleweight trinket from Pavlik a year and a half ago, Martinez has defended it 3 times, and won all 3 times by KO/TKO and was voted fighter of the year in 2010. Please tell me who besides Pacquiao, and maybe Donaire, deserves the #2 P4P ranking more than Sergio?
As for Barker, he's shit offensively, but he's tall, with long arms and had a defense that made it very hard for Martinez to look good against or penetrate. Because Barker covered up, smothered Sergio's punches and was the "aggressor" much of the fight he did much better than expected, but lets not forget that he clearly lost the fight, and was knocked out.
All things considered, this was a good win for Martinez, toped off by a KO, read 'um and weep, dissn' Martinez just sounds like sour grapes.
wasn't a trinket that he won from Pavlik, seeing how Kelly Pavlik was still the lineal Middlweight ChampionQuote:
Originally Posted by Mars_axQuote:
Originally Posted by 0james0
Since winning the Middleweight trinket from Pavlik a year and a half ago, Martinez has defended it 3 times, and won all 3 times by KO/TKO and was vote fighter of the year in 2010. Please tell me who besides Pacquiao, and maybe Donaire, deserves the #2 P4P ranking more than Sergio?
As for Barker, he's shit offensively, but he's tall, with long arms and had a defense that made it very hard for Martinez to look good against or penetrate. Because Barker covered up, smothered Sergio's punches and was the "aggressor" much of the fight he did much better than expected, but lets not forget that he clearly lost the fight, and was knocked out.
All things considered, this was a good win for Martinez, toped off by a KO, read 'um and weep, dissn' Martinez just sounds like sour grapes.
I thought it was a good win. Barker fought a good gameplan and kept it tight, not allowing Martinez to get off with his punches. The first six rounds or so were nip and tuck but Martinez adapted and was dominating the fight by the end.
It's silly to suggest it wasn't an impressive win because he wasn't dominating from the opening bell. That's like writing Man Utd off as league champions because they go in at half time 0-0 with West Brom.
He got the job done.
I don't think he's as complete a fighter as either Manny or Floyd. And if Hopkins beats Chad Dawson I think I will put him above him also.
If you count the Klitschko's in the p4p then I think there is a case for both of them being higher rated considering the levels of dominance they display over all of their opposition, but most people don't put heavyweights in there.
Guys like Ward, Bradley and Khan are rising, but they aren't undisputed champs like Martinez. At the end of the day, if you don't think Martinez is one of the top 3 fighters in the world, then you have to say who is. It's really hard to make a serious case for anyone else.
He's definitely one of the best in the current p4p, although I think he would have been a bit lower down the list had the likes of Hopkins, Jones, Cotto, Calzaghe, Mosley, Hatton and De La Hoya still been in their primes/top a few years ago.
Three years ago he'd be creeping into the top 10 with his current resume. But as boxing is right now, all of those guys are gone so his place is starting to look legit.
He's also a very exciting fighter.
Right, I stand corrected, he won 2 trinkets from Pavlik, the WBO & WBC Middleweight titles, i'm not sure when Martinez won the Ring magazine middleweight title, possibly from Pavlik as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by ElTerribleMoraleswasn't a trinket that he won from Pavlik, seeing how Kelly Pavlik was still the lineal Middlweight ChampionQuote:
Originally Posted by Mars_axQuote:
Originally Posted by 0james0
Since winning the Middleweight trinket from Pavlik a year and a half ago, Martinez has defended it 3 times, and won all 3 times by KO/TKO and was vote fighter of the year in 2010. Please tell me who besides Pacquiao, and maybe Donaire, deserves the #2 P4P ranking more than Sergio?
As for Barker, he's shit offensively, but he's tall, with long arms and had a defense that made it very hard for Martinez to look good against or penetrate. Because Barker covered up, smothered Sergio's punches and was the "aggressor" much of the fight he did much better than expected, but lets not forget that he clearly lost the fight, and was knocked out.
All things considered, this was a good win for Martinez, toped off by a KO, read 'um and weep, dissn' Martinez just sounds like sour grapes.
The ring title is not the same as the lineal title.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mars_axRight, I stand corrected, he won 2 trinkets from Pavlik, the WBO & WBC Middleweight titles, i'm not sure when Martinez won the Ring magazine middleweight title, possibly from Pavlik as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by ElTerribleMoraleswasn't a trinket that he won from Pavlik, seeing how Kelly Pavlik was still the lineal Middlweight ChampionQuote:
Originally Posted by Mars_axQuote:
Originally Posted by 0james0
Since winning the Middleweight trinket from Pavlik a year and a half ago, Martinez has defended it 3 times, and won all 3 times by KO/TKO and was vote fighter of the year in 2010. Please tell me who besides Pacquiao, and maybe Donaire, deserves the #2 P4P ranking more than Sergio?
As for Barker, he's shit offensively, but he's tall, with long arms and had a defense that made it very hard for Martinez to look good against or penetrate. Because Barker covered up, smothered Sergio's punches and was the "aggressor" much of the fight he did much better than expected, but lets not forget that he clearly lost the fight, and was knocked out.
All things considered, this was a good win for Martinez, toped off by a KO, read 'um and weep, dissn' Martinez just sounds like sour grapes.
The lineal title is a tracing of the true championship belt lineage from the present right back to the 'good old days' of boxing. IT traces the man who beat the man who beat the man who beat them man.
To be the ineal champ is to be recognised as the true world champion in a weight class. The Ring will usually automatically make the lineal champ the champ.
But Martinez is no trinket holder, he is the legitimate, undisputed world champion.
Maybe I just expected too much from Martinez. I expected a one sided beat down, but although we saw it to some degree, there were far too many rounds won by Barker, won by a fighter not really in the same league.
I do think that this maybe down to the fact Martinez expected an easy night, hence the hands by his waist taunting from the very first round. But for rounds 4,5,6, he looked lost. He didn't look like he could work out how to land a shot and seemed to be tired and shocked by the fact his nose was gushing blood.
Fair play to him for turning it around, but maybe it's just that Floyd and Manny are just that much better we/ I expect too much from the 3rd place fighter. I expect it to be completely one sided, maybe a couple moments of doubt, but not a third of the fight wondering if he is going to win.
I'm not saying that Martinez is shit or that he didn't do well and deserve that win. But I just don't feel like he is the third best fighter on the planet.
But then like Bilbo says, who else could you put there?
Maybe I'm just over critical
Just another example how difficult it's for british fans to accept the defeat of their own boxer. When they can't do anything else it's time to underrate the winner.
OK. First of all i don't think at all Martinez underrate Barker before the fight. Barker just did things well enough to stay alive until round 10. From that round the punishment by Martinez started to take toll. Barker defended well but he ain't got weapons to destroy Martinez at all. His plan was just to survive and punch relatively soft punches.
On the other hand we indeed saw that Martinez is lacking one very special punch - sharp, fast uppercut. He had several good chances to end the fight much sooner than round eleven. I would say he needs something e.g Lucian Bute has - devastating uppercut. And that might be one good reason number 3 P4P. And finally - who really has beaten Martinez in the ring during the last 5 years. Paul Williams (in first fight)? Hardly not. Martinez was better. He was better in that Cintron fight too. Martinez has really lost only one fight - long time ago (Margarito).
So Martinez had pretty qualityless night. Barker did what he can - but that ability will never give him real worldchampionship in this division. He is very medium boxer and he can't take hard punches. That's why his style is what we saw in Atlantic City. Is it too hard to say his boxing style is also very boring?
My opinion is there ain't complete fighter and will never been. Even Manny and Floyd have features not even near 100% complete. "Complete fighter" is nothing but one example of hype.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
Well it was a ok win i think but to me the mw divsion looking weaker then the cw division there not much talent in it really. I mean if anyone else in the top ten beat a Barker no one would give a shit. Looking at Martinaz career as a whole resume is pretty weak form what i can say at least for his rank. People bring up first Willaims fight i think he lost it close still a lose on his record and he avenged anyhow dont know why people try to erase the lose. If Hopkins wins he is above Martinez and if count heavyweights I think the brothers might have a good account but like Bilbo said before heavys aren't ranked much. I think if Martinez wants to really build a legacy going to have to go to 168 and fight the top guys in the divsion but i really doubt that while happen for him.
Martinez top 20 if ur lucky!boxed a shit fight against barker!to mention him in the same breath as manny or floyd or even vlad,Hopkins,froch is almost comical!
Just so we're clear, Mr.140, he is a two division champion and the lineal middleweight champion. Also, when he fought Paul Williams, no one would fight Paul Williams. Pacquiao included.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr140
Why the hell would Pac fight Williams?Quote:
Originally Posted by RantcatratJust so we're clear, Mr.140, he is a two division champion and the lineal middleweight champion. Also, when he fought Paul Williams, no one would fight Paul Williams. Pacquiao included.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr140
Although easily forgotten, there was a time not so long ago when Williams was the feared guy between 147 and 154. Pac was fighting at 147. Arum and Roach came out and said they would not fight Paul Williams even though they were fighting at or around the same weight class because Paul Williams was too big.Quote:
Originally Posted by jabvargas24Why the hell would Pac fight Williams?Quote:
Originally Posted by RantcatratJust so we're clear, Mr.140, he is a two division champion and the lineal middleweight champion. Also, when he fought Paul Williams, no one would fight Paul Williams. Pacquiao included.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr140
Floyd was lucky not be trailing by 5 points after four rounds against Zab Judah if I recall. He had a legit knockdown ruled a slip, he lost the first 4 rounds or so. Things is he adapted, came back and dominated.Quote:
Originally Posted by 0james0
Even a great fighter isn't going to dominate every round of every fight. What matters is that they win.
I would argue it's far better for a fighter to start slowly, and look bad early but then turn it around and get better as the fight goes on than to experience the reverse a la Jermain Taylor, Oscar, Cory Spinks, Zab Judah etc. He's shown he has a great engine, can keep going, change plans mid fight and maintains his power for the whole fight.
Calzaghe had many performances like that.
Wait a second there. Froch? You mean the guy who couldn't even beat Mikkel Kessler like a year ago (in what was one of the sloppiest, most amateur-hour fights I've ever seen at a supposedly "elite" level)? And who got a gift decision over Dirrell? You're mentioning him in the same breath as Manny, Floyd, Wlad and BHop? That is quite comical.Quote:
Originally Posted by rosco1984
Regarding Martinez and what, if anything, this fight says about his P4P ranking, I agree with those who say it shouldn't affect it at all. Barker was super defensive and would have presented a hard challenge for anyone to look great against, but he also had zero chance of winning the fight because he wasn't offensively active. Once he started opening up a little, Martinez KO'd him. That was about the best anyone could do in that situation. It's a more extreme example, but look at Manny's low connect percentage against the 100% defensive posture of Clottey -- are you going to say he deserved to be demoted because of that? He didn't even close it with a stoppage.
Skill and speedwise, Martinez still looks more impressive to me than pretty much anyone other than Mayweather, Pac, Donaire, and maybe Wlad. If Gamboa can clean up his lapses/defense a bit and stick around undefeated for another couple years, he might be up there too at that point.
I'd definitely throw Andre Ward in that mix too. He's dominated and has beaten almost as good fighters as Martinez with one sided beatdowns of Kessler and Abraham.Quote:
Originally Posted by shzaWait a second there. Froch? You mean the guy who couldn't even beat Mikkel Kessler like a year ago (in what was one of the sloppiest, most amateur-hour fights I've ever seen at a supposedly "elite" level)? And who got a gift decision over Dirrell? You're mentioning him in the same breath as Manny, Floyd, Wlad and BHop? That is quite comical.Quote:
Originally Posted by rosco1984
Regarding Martinez and what, if anything, this fight says about his P4P ranking, I agree with those who say it shouldn't affect it at all. Barker was super defensive and would have presented a hard challenge for anyone to look great against, but he also had zero chance of winning the fight because he wasn't offensively active. Once he started opening up a little, Martinez KO'd him. That was about the best anyone could do in that situation. It's a more extreme example, but look at Manny's low connect percentage against the 100% defensive posture of Clottey -- are you going to say he deserved to be demoted because of that? He didn't even close it with a stoppage.
Skill and speedwise, Martinez still looks more impressive to me than pretty much anyone other than Mayweather, Pac, Donaire, and maybe Wlad. If Gamboa can clean up his lapses/defense a bit and stick around undefeated for another couple years, he might be up there too at that point.
If he beats Carl Froch he has to go straight into the top 10, and quite high imo.
I can't see anybody beating him in the forseeable future at all. Also, and it's only my opinion of course, but in a p4p fight I think he beats Martinez. He's possibly the next Bhop and likely to be as under appreciated too.
Rant he was not even lienal champ at 154 and lost it to Paul at that weight so after 50 fights you look at what he beat before Paul. Now i am saying that at 160 he has had pretty god run but besides Pavlik who was not even ranked in top ten anymore done really fuck all after the Hopkins lose dont bring Rubio up. So yea i say pretty weak resume compared to years before it and i think you could put Hopkins now even above him with out the Dawson win and the brothers grim for there reign at there weight class.
right before the Williams fight (which IMO he won the first time around), he beat Cintron twice the same night (KO and UD) then was robbed and given a bullshit draw, he also beat Bunema who was solid at the time, also don't forget that at that same time guys like Forrest (RIP) wanted nothing to do with the guy, so he moved up to 160 and fought Pavlik who regardless to his lone loss at 170 against B-Hop was still THE LINEAL MIDDLEWEIGHT CHAMPION, and although being the underdog Sergio clearly beat up the bigger man, he then avenged a controversial loss to Williams with a stunning 2nd round KO, a brutal KO against a guy who was feared due to his size and ability to take a punch, he followed it up by beating the Ring Jr Middleweight Champion Dzinziruk, and then now after no one would take a fight against him (Cotto, Margarito, Sturm, Mayweather, nor Pacquiao) he settled for the unknown, undefeated Barker whom he dominated and KO'dQuote:
Originally Posted by Mr140
don't try to re-write history just to help sell your argument, the fact still remains that Martinez is one of the most talented and most avoided fighters in boxing today, and the fact that he's bending over backwards to make fights with the #1 or #2 p4p guys and they pretend not to even know he exists only solidifies the claim that he's that damn good
Don't even consider Cintron much of win chocked every big fight he has had so that does not help Martinez case for me anyhow. I am not rewriting anything he lost the Paul Williams fight first time around and the Pavlik he did beat was a drunk and had just had his soul crushed not to long ago by Hopkins. He was pretty shock up by the lose and still don't think he has come to terms with it. Martinez is def in the top ten but i say his rank is not solid i could put Hopkins even with out Dawson above him and not to far fetched to think the Kiltschos are up there since they haven't lost a round in how long now. I do not think Martinez record as a whole is close to them he been hot hes last few fights and the big names have kinda come to the end of there rope that were up there.
My thoughts at Martinez have nothing to do with the fact he just beat a British boxer. Couldn't care less if he fought Stone Cold Steve Austin. I still don't after what I've seen rank him that highly.
I think if he steps up a weight he gets beat a few times. I think if he steps down and fights the people being rumoured he gets beat. King in his weight, but in modern boxing one weight isn't enough to get a top 3 mention usually unless you are really special.
Martinez is ranked where he is based on merit, in the last 18 months he became the Lineal/Ring Middleweight Champion, and defended his titles 3 times, winning each fight by KO, he was also voted 2010 fighter of the year. Pretty goddamn impressive if you ask me, like it or not based on what he's managed to accomplish, Martinez is more then worthy of being ranked the #3 P4P fighter in the world, actually I have him at #2.Quote:
Originally Posted by 0james0
Hyping Frog, that flailing guy from Nottingham, is little bit comical. Just like any british "worldclass" soccer player. Big media headlines, not so great performance in action. Defeat in Copenhagen to slow Kessler is hardly a merit. Just like that very questionable "win" against Dirrell at home ring. Folk in UK are thundering about highclass supermiddleweight but i've strong doubts if Kessler, Frog and Ward are really better than Martinez. Perhaps only guy in that division who likely would beat Maravilla is actually Bute, not these anglosaxon hyped "super six" totems.Quote:
Originally Posted by rosco1984
This post as as biased as the one you are criticising, you've just swung like a mighty pendulum the other way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Matias64Hyping Frog, that flailing guy from Nottingham, is little bit comical. Just like any british "worldclass" soccer player. Big media headlines, not so great performance in action. Defeat in Copenhagen to slow Kessler is hardly a merit. Just like that very questionable "win" against Dirrell at home ring. Folk in UK are thundering about highclass supermiddleweight but i've strong doubts if Kessler, Frog and Ward are really better than Martinez. Perhaps only guy in that division who likely would beat Maravilla is actually Bute, not these anglosaxon hyped "super six" totems.Quote:
Originally Posted by rosco1984
Firstly, Froch is not making soccer style massive headlines in Britain, he is barely known in the UK and woefully under appreciate. He's like the Mark Cavendish of British boxing, tremendously succesful but nobody knows who he is.
Secondly, there are barely more than 3 or 4 fighters on the planet who have fought the same calibre of fighters Froch has fought in the past few years.
In succesvie fights he has beaten Jean Pascal, knocked out Jermain Taylor, edged a close fight with Andre Dirrell, lost a close fight with Kessler, dominated Arthur Abraham and then beaten Glen Johnson. His next fight will be against Andre Ward.
How many fighters have fought better competition than that in their last 7 fights?
The fact he has only one loss in that time, and that a razor thin decision in a fight overseas is highly commendable.
You make a fool of yourself to suggest otherwise.
Froch is a very talented fighter.
Is he as good as Martinez though p4p? I think it would have to be argued probably not, although on resume he's hardly far behind. An upset win over Andre Ward should see him in the top 10 4p4 on merit. A very tough and relentless fighter with a will to match his chin. Froch will be hard to beat.
I think people misunderstand who Martinez is as a fighter, he's not Gamboa, he's not Mayorga. He's a patient boxer who carefully breaks his mark down round by round. As to the question of whether or not he still merits a number 3 p4p rating, sure he does, what has he done to lose it? There are arguments to be made for a few guys out there, Wlad for sure, Donaire is on the right track, but he needs more quality wins, the winner of the S6 surely will deserve consideration, B-Hop should at least be in the discussion.
I already have Froch in my top 10. His level of competition is outstanding.Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboThis post as as biased as the one you are criticising, you've just swung like a mighty pendulum the other way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Matias64Hyping Frog, that flailing guy from Nottingham, is little bit comical. Just like any british "worldclass" soccer player. Big media headlines, not so great performance in action. Defeat in Copenhagen to slow Kessler is hardly a merit. Just like that very questionable "win" against Dirrell at home ring. Folk in UK are thundering about highclass supermiddleweight but i've strong doubts if Kessler, Frog and Ward are really better than Martinez. Perhaps only guy in that division who likely would beat Maravilla is actually Bute, not these anglosaxon hyped "super six" totems.Quote:
Originally Posted by rosco1984
Firstly, Froch is not making soccer style massive headlines in Britain, he is barely known in the UK and woefully under appreciate. He's like the Mark Cavendish of British boxing, tremendously succesful but nobody knows who he is.
Secondly, there are barely more than 3 or 4 fighters on the planet who have fought the same calibre of fighters Froch has fought in the past few years.
In succesvie fights he has beaten Jean Pascal, knocked out Jermain Taylor, edged a close fight with Andre Dirrell, lost a close fight with Kessler, dominated Arthur Abraham and then beaten Glen Johnson. His next fight will be against Andre Ward.
How many fighters have fought better competition than that in their last 7 fights?
The fact he has only one loss in that time, and that a razor thin decision in a fight overseas is highly commendable.
You make a fool of yourself to suggest otherwise.
Froch is a very talented fighter.
Is he as good as Martinez though p4p? I think it would have to be argued probably not, although on resume he's hardly far behind. An upset win over Andre Ward should see him in the top 10 4p4 on merit. A very tough and relentless fighter with a will to match his chin. Froch will be hard to beat.
:DQuote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
I have a problem with something because usually before I even think about making a reply to a thread, I usually know why I am doing it but this time I lost track of Martinez titles and I heard Julio Caesar Chavez Jr, has a piece of the middleweight title? Martinez is recognized as the WBO champion and the WBC Diamond belt? Can someone straighten out this mess for me? Will the real linear champion please stand up?
Martinez is the lineal champion.Quote:
Originally Posted by johnsebastianmiran
Hopkins was the champ. Hopkins lost it to Jermain Taylor. Taylor lost to Pavlik. (Pavlik's loss to BHop was at a higher catchweight and wasn't for the MW championship.) Martinez beat Pavlik.
After talking about this i think its ok for him to be there i guess although i have a few people i feel have a case to be above him. I just thinking in the 1990s or 1980s he would of been just another guy really.
Does it matter what number he is on the P4P lists?
He goes home to this...
Attachment 2202
I wouldn't give a fuck where you put me 1 or 10 if this was waiting for me after the fight... :cool:
She's for sure not an ugly bird. As for Martinez, I dunno for the top 3 but I sure would fit him in the top 10. I always struggled to make a top 10 past the first 2 picks.Quote:
Originally Posted by CutMeMick
If I was Martinez I would still do the porn star Liza Anne.Quote:
Originally Posted by CutMeMick
Lisa Ann has had more dick in her than a urinal at a train station... :DQuote:
Originally Posted by MasterIf I was Martinez I would still do the porn star Liza Anne.Quote:
Originally Posted by CutMeMick
My P4P list looks like this today:Quote:
Originally Posted by NamelessShe's for sure not an ugly bird. As for Martinez, I dunno for the top 3 ut I sure would fit in the top 10. I always struggled to make a top 10 past the 2 first picks.Quote:
Originally Posted by CutMeMick
PBF
Pac
Sergio
JMM
Hopkins
Nonito
Wladdy
Bradley
Ward
Froch
Honors: Mares, Segura, Khan & Bute.
There isn't a time when Manny Pacquiao and Paul Williams belonged to the same weight division nor even close to it. During the last time that Williams fought at the 140's weight (145 lbs), Manny fought at 134 lbs, and this happened the same month, June 2008.Quote:
Originally Posted by RantcatratAlthough easily forgotten, there was a time not so long ago when Williams was the feared guy between 147 and 154. Pac was fighting at 147. Arum and Roach came out and said they would not fight Paul Williams even though they were fighting at or around the same weight class because Paul Williams was too big.Quote:
Originally Posted by jabvargas24Why the hell would Pac fight Williams?Quote:
Originally Posted by RantcatratJust so we're clear, Mr.140, he is a two division champion and the lineal middleweight champion. Also, when he fought Paul Williams, no one would fight Paul Williams. Pacquiao included.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr140
And to answer the question of the thread: Yes, Martinez deserves to be number 3 P4P.