just noticed youtube are doing films and found this one in the free section :cool:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8fGO-o52G0
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just noticed youtube are doing films and found this one in the free section :cool:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8fGO-o52G0
There will never be another ali.
Goat.
The way he dodged those punches going backwards and side to side was just so graceful.
He made boxing.
Good find Saddo, Ali was an amazing character, he made an impact on sports/boxing like few others.
Love him or hate, it's still so sad to see the once vibrant Ali, stricken with pugilistic dementia.
Yes the greatest heavyweight boxer ever.
his peak fights look faked choreographed films, he weas that fast at anticipating a punch.
nice find but Ali HIMSELF either disagrees or has very significant doubt. ;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDaw2QFC1Qg&feature=related
that argument has now failed twice onthis forum, in the same way Marciano would lose twice against Ali.Quote:
Originally Posted by brocktonblockbust
wrongQuote:
Originally Posted by RohanKnightthat argument has now failed twice onthis forum, in the same way Marciano would lose twice against Ali.Quote:
Originally Posted by brocktonblockbust
You know Id take Ali against Marciano on height reach and style.
Marciano couldnt of used the club fist unless Ali leaned down to him and that wasnt Alis style when under attack not in the middle of the ring or on the ropes. So there would be half of his damaging blows taken from him in the first half of the fight at least. :-\ But like Ali says here, whos knows, its up to your imagination.
He is not demented, he has parkinson's syndrome.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mars_ax
Well,,, if Ali is "The Greatest" then the 25 year old kid with only 7 pro fights who gave up 2" in height, 25 lbs and a 4" reach advantage and took the WBC and WBA belt away from a 36 year old heavyweight who should be in his prime, MUST BE THE GREATEST ATHLETE OF ALL TIME! Oh ya....the was Leon Spinks.... But hey....you all just keep on believing the hype....Ali MUST be the greatest! He kept saying it didn't he!???!?! :confused:
Yeah he did mate,he got the SD, Ali got it back next fight with a UD, whats the hype we are buying into? It is just an expression.Quote:
Originally Posted by landmine950
The actual greatest was probably Louis for my own liking with 11 years running 70-3 but hell Ill leave his nick name at the Brown Bomber as Ali is the greatest..
How many miles do you think Ali had on the clock at 36? How much punishment had his body taken?
I know you're a Marciano fan but your hatred of Ali is irrational at best.
whoah, i think youre confusing me with the poster named Landmine950. I never said I hate Ali. To me he is ONE of the 2 or 3 greatest of all time.Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamGB
Maybe so...
I just seem to remember you reveling in the fact that Frazier knocked Ali down. ;)
Ali in his prime at 36!!!! Did you see what he was doing at 22 years of age and the people he beat after. Most men would not have been competing after they were 30 if they had a career like Ali's.Quote:
Originally Posted by landmine950
mmm, Ali kind of started his championship career in the deep end, and thats an understatement.
At 22 he was facing Sonny Liston, and remember this Liston guy was seen as invincible and had twice destroyed THE legitimate UNDISPUTED world champion (Patterson, who won the title younger than even Tyson!), and from whom Rocky Marciano had run shitscared from.
NOW - Think about that for a moment, Marciano is a pretty much an ATG and is tough as nails as BrocktonBusterBloodvessel has gone to great lengths to point out... and he was shitscared of the guy that Ali (barely a modern day adult as 22) EASILY beat!
This was not even Alis best, he just got better in the next few years. Those early defences were just as amazing - destroying legit world champions Ellis, Patterson and Terrell, and making monkeys of the hardest hitters or toughest fighters of the time (Cleveland Williams, George Chuvalo). He went literally whole fights where his opponent never landed a solid blow on him, and we are talking about legit number one challengers, not fighting bums for ten years like some fighters do these days - Ali wouldnt spend more than one fight with a bum (there was only one 'bum' british champion Brian London, in that early reign, who later pointed out that he was sure he never contributed to Ali's Parkinsons, since he never actually hit Ali in their fight!) , let alone ten years of them to pad out an 'undefeated record'.
I am not undermining the Rock's talent but how great would Rocky vs Chavalo had been? Rocky was by far a better fighter and I know I'm biased being Canadian but don't see George being knocked down let alone out.
I know who I pick as the best of the 2.....
Debatable Marciano's top 4 names he won against...
better at the lower weights... Ezzard Charles who went on to fight another 23 times losing 13 of them
Rex Layne went on to fight 9 more times losing 5 of them
Joe Louis comming out of retirement to pay the tax man... pointless win on a par with Holmes ali and and Tyson Holmes.
39 year old Jersey Joe Walcott
retired undefeated after defending his title whole 6 time
Debatable Ali's top 4 fighters he won against...
Sonny Liston monster for his weight :) and went on to fight 16 more fights losing only once
Joe Fraizer
George Foreman went on to fight 6 more times losing only once then coming back to fight to fight another 34 times losing 3 times
Floyd Patterson went on to fight 16 more times losing 3 times one of them being to ali again
Ali fought on far to long prob should have retired after the 3rd Fraizer fight IMHO
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saddo
Good points Saddo.
If you wanna compare the competition Ali and Marciano faced, it's not even a contest, Ali's competition was far superior to Marciano's.
No offense meant to Marciano's fans, but prime Liston, Ali, Frazier, Foreman, Holmes,Tyson and Lennox Lewis were all "big" Heavyweights, who would have crushed the much smaller Marciano.
:nono:Quote:
and from whom Rocky Marciano had run shitscared from.
Im sure in everyones top 5 heavyweights of all time marciano might make the list but only just..
Ali
Jack johnson
Larry holmes
Lennox
Tyson.
Joe louis, marciano etc
Imho.
Prime for prime mercer would take marciano and tommy gun would give him problems!
sif its not true, how do you explain Marciano training to come out of retirement for Ingemar JOhansson, and then quitting as soon as Liston literally tore the champion apart..Quote:
Originally Posted by brocktonblockbust
Marciano knew for a fact that he'd get destroyed,and lets not forget Liston was the same age as Marciano, so you cant argue he gave up his comeback because he was past his prime. He was simply more limited than you make out, and now he realised it - why should he risk his record and his ATG status to get shown up by someone obviously better than him?
Then Rocky had the bad grace to say he would have kicked Clay's ass - an odd thing to say for such a gracious man, given that he ran from an obvious beating from Sonny Liston that Clay was happy to take - something was obviously bothering him immensely for him to react like that. A lot of retired champs mouth off, so he wasnt alone in that behaviour.
you are well wacked.Quote:
Originally Posted by RohanKnightsif its not true, how do you explain Marciano training to come out of retirement for Ingemar JOhansson, and then quitting as soon as Liston literally tore the champion apart..Quote:
Originally Posted by brocktonblockbust
Marciano knew for a fact that he'd get destroyed,and lets not forget Liston was the same age as Marciano, so you cant argue he gave up his comeback because he was past his prime. He was simply more limited than you make out, and now he realised it - why should he risk his record and his ATG status to get shown up by someone obviously better than him?
Then Rocky had the bad grace to say he would have kicked Clay's ass - an odd thing to say for such a gracious man, given that he ran from an obvious beating from Sonny Liston that Clay was happy to take - something was obviously bothering him immensely for him to react like that. A lot of retired champs mouth off, so he wasnt alone in that behaviour.
I don't think Marciano was ever afraid to fight anybody, including Sonny Liston, that's insulting. I do believe however that had this fight happened, Liston would have knocked Marciano out, he was too big, and too powerful for the much smaller Rocky.Quote:
Originally Posted by RohanKnightsif its not true, how do you explain Marciano training to come out of retirement for Ingemar JOhansson, and then quitting as soon as Liston literally tore the champion apart..Quote:
Originally Posted by brocktonblockbust
Marciano knew for a fact that he'd get destroyed,and lets not forget Liston was the same age as Marciano, so you cant argue he gave up his comeback because he was past his prime. He was simply more limited than you make out, and now he realised it - why should he risk his record and his ATG status to get shown up by someone obviously better than him?
Then Rocky had the bad grace to say he would have kicked Clay's ass - an odd thing to say for such a gracious man, given that he ran from an obvious beating from Sonny Liston that Clay was happy to take - something was obviously bothering him immensely for him to react like that. A lot of retired champs mouth off, so he wasnt alone in that behaviour.
well yes, shitscared is an unfair term for such a brave man, I concede that was wrong to say. As you say and everyone seems to agree with apart from BB above, its more that Rocky knew his limitations as a fighter... and I was not happy that he then went on to say he could whup Ali when he knew he couldnt even whup Liston.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mars_axI don't think Marciano was ever afraid to fight anybody, including Sonny Liston, that's insulting. I do believe however that had this fight happened, Liston would have knocked Marciano out, he was too big, and too powerful for the much smaller Rocky.Quote:
Originally Posted by RohanKnightsif its not true, how do you explain Marciano training to come out of retirement for Ingemar JOhansson, and then quitting as soon as Liston literally tore the champion apart..Quote:
Originally Posted by brocktonblockbust
Marciano knew for a fact that he'd get destroyed,and lets not forget Liston was the same age as Marciano, so you cant argue he gave up his comeback because he was past his prime. He was simply more limited than you make out, and now he realised it - why should he risk his record and his ATG status to get shown up by someone obviously better than him?
Then Rocky had the bad grace to say he would have kicked Clay's ass - an odd thing to say for such a gracious man, given that he ran from an obvious beating from Sonny Liston that Clay was happy to take - something was obviously bothering him immensely for him to react like that. A lot of retired champs mouth off, so he wasnt alone in that behaviour.
I would expect a gracious man like Marciano to admit to his limitations, not lie about them, but that might be too much too ask from a lot of ex champs. Thats why I am glad that Ali didtn fall into the trap of BShitting like Marciano did - when asked about him versus Marciano (see BrocktonBusterMathis's thread for the video), he showed that rather than talk shit like Rocky did, he was down to earth and said - 'who knows?'
thx for posting the video, Brockton, always good to win an argument using your opponents own attack. ;) very nearly said 'rope-a-dope' there.
I'm sure Rocky thought he could defeat every Heavyweight who ever lived, including Liston and Ali, so I don't get what you believe he's "lying" about.Quote:
Originally Posted by RohanKnightQuote:
Originally Posted by Mars_axI don't think Marciano was ever afraid to fight anybody, including Sonny Liston, that's insulting. I do believe however that had this fight happened, Liston would have knocked Marciano out, he was too big, and too powerful for the much smaller Rocky.Quote:
Originally Posted by RohanKnightsif its not true, how do you explain Marciano training to come out of retirement for Ingemar JOhansson, and then quitting as soon as Liston literally tore the champion apart..Quote:
Originally Posted by brocktonblockbust
Marciano knew for a fact that he'd get destroyed,and lets not forget Liston was the same age as Marciano, so you cant argue he gave up his comeback because he was past his prime. He was simply more limited than you make out, and now he realised it - why should he risk his record and his ATG status to get shown up by someone obviously better than him?
Then Rocky had the bad grace to say he would have kicked Clay's ass - an odd thing to say for such a gracious man, given that he ran from an obvious beating from Sonny Liston that Clay was happy to take - something was obviously bothering him immensely for him to react like that. A lot of retired champs mouth off, so he wasnt alone in that behaviour.
well yes, shitscared is an unfair term for such a brave man, I concede that was wrong to say. As you say and everyone seems to agree with apart from BB above, its more that Rocky knew his limitations as a fighter... and I was not happy that he then went on to say he could whup Ali when he knew he couldnt even whup Liston.
I would expect a gracious man like Marciano to admit to his limitations, not lie about them, but that might be too much too ask from a lot of ex champs. Thats why I am glad that Ali didtn fall into the trap Marciano did and was down to earth when asked about him versus Marciano (see BrocktonBusterMathis's thread for the video), he showed he wasnt full of shit.
well he steered clear of Patterson and Liston (who would have beat him), just as soon as Ingemar Johannson (a paper champion whom he could easily beat even in his midthirties) had lost the title, he stopped his comeback and reretired for good. SO what he said about Ali, and what he actually did are polar opposites.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mars_axI'm sure Rocky thought he could defeat every Heavyweight who ever lived, including Liston and Ali, so I don't get what you believe he's "lying" about.Quote:
Originally Posted by RohanKnightQuote:
Originally Posted by Mars_axI don't think Marciano was ever afraid to fight anybody, including Sonny Liston, that's insulting. I do believe however that had this fight happened, Liston would have knocked Marciano out, he was too big, and too powerful for the much smaller Rocky.Quote:
Originally Posted by RohanKnightsif its not true, how do you explain Marciano training to come out of retirement for Ingemar JOhansson, and then quitting as soon as Liston literally tore the champion apart..Quote:
Originally Posted by brocktonblockbust
Marciano knew for a fact that he'd get destroyed,and lets not forget Liston was the same age as Marciano, so you cant argue he gave up his comeback because he was past his prime. He was simply more limited than you make out, and now he realised it - why should he risk his record and his ATG status to get shown up by someone obviously better than him?
Then Rocky had the bad grace to say he would have kicked Clay's ass - an odd thing to say for such a gracious man, given that he ran from an obvious beating from Sonny Liston that Clay was happy to take - something was obviously bothering him immensely for him to react like that. A lot of retired champs mouth off, so he wasnt alone in that behaviour.
well yes, shitscared is an unfair term for such a brave man, I concede that was wrong to say. As you say and everyone seems to agree with apart from BB above, its more that Rocky knew his limitations as a fighter... and I was not happy that he then went on to say he could whup Ali when he knew he couldnt even whup Liston.
I would expect a gracious man like Marciano to admit to his limitations, not lie about them, but that might be too much too ask from a lot of ex champs. Thats why I am glad that Ali didtn fall into the trap Marciano did and was down to earth when asked about him versus Marciano (see BrocktonBusterMathis's thread for the video), he showed he wasnt full of shit.
[QUOTE=RohanKnight;1019867][QUOTE=Mars_ax;1019866]If Marciano was officially retired, how the fuck is he steering clear of Patterson and Liston? Aside from what i'm hearing from you, i've never heard this bullshit, or that he stopped a comeback rather than fight Liston. Rocky feared no man, he retired, and stayed retired for reasons that had fuck all to do with Patterson, Liston, Ali, et al, end of story.Quote:
Originally Posted by RohanKnightwell he steered clear of Patterson and Liston, as soon as Ingemar Johannson had lost the title, he stopped his comeback and reretired for good. SO what he said about Ali, and what he actually did are polar opposites.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mars_axI'm sure Rocky thought he could defeat every Heavyweight who ever lived, including Liston and Ali, so I don't get what you believe he's "lying" about.Quote:
Originally Posted by RohanKnightQuote:
Originally Posted by brocktonblockbust
well yes, shitscared is an unfair term for such a brave man, I concede that was wrong to say. As you say and everyone seems to agree with apart from BB above, its more that Rocky knew his limitations as a fighter... and I was not happy that he then went on to say he could whup Ali when he knew he couldnt even whup Liston.
I would expect a gracious man like Marciano to admit to his limitations, not lie about them, but that might be too much too ask from a lot of ex champs. Thats why I am glad that Ali didtn fall into the trap Marciano did and was down to earth when asked about him versus Marciano (see BrocktonBusterMathis's thread for the video), he showed he wasnt full of shit.
I remember seeing an interview eight after his win over Archie Moore fight when he was asked if it really was his last fight... Marciano own words where along the lines of...."if i'm struggling against guys like this its time to call it a day"
he knew he was done and its prob refreshing to see it happen.... when you look at the likes of Roy Jones and Ali for that matter.
I read somewhere that real reason Marciano retired was because of all the trauma to his face/nose/head and the fact that he suffered from severe back pains in his last few fights. I also heard that he didn't want to continue giving a big chunk of his purses to his manager Al Weill, reported to be as much as 50%.Quote:
Originally Posted by Saddo
Marciano was a great champion, who defeated everyone they put in front of him, most by KO. When all is said and done, whether or not Rocky would have been able to hang with bigger, stronger, Heavyweights, like Liston, Ali, Holmes, or Tyson, remains to be seen, and really makes little difference.
makes sense mate he did take a shitload of punishment in his time.... there is that other old argument of him losing a few fights when he started out but they were never recorded for some reason, can't remember the reason behind it or if its even true :-\Quote:
Originally Posted by Mars_axI read somewhere that real reason Marciano retired was because of all the trauma to his face/nose/head and the fact that he suffered from severe back pains in his last few fights. I also heard that he didn't want to continue giving a big chunk of his purses to his manager Al Weill, reported to be as much as 50%.Quote:
Originally Posted by Saddo
Marciano was a great champion, who defeated everyone they put in front of him, most by KO. When all is said and done, whether or not Rocky would have been able to hang with bigger, stronger, Heavyweights, like Liston, Ali, Holmes, or Tyson, remains to be seen, and really makes little difference.
it would make sense as his amateur career was piss poor if the copy I have is anything to go by... it was given to me about 7 years ago while it was still being researched.
i can upload it if anyone is interested.
I think what defines a fighter as great is how he trains for a great performance and how many times he comes forth to do it again and the quality of his opponent. How good was his opposition? Enough to have many great moments where his performance is recognized as great. After all you are only as good as your last fight until you are not able to do it any more. Sadly enough age, eroding of skills and finally desire cause them and us to remember the good performances. Ali was once called,"A thinking man's fighter." That also made him great.
Quote:
Originally Posted by saddomakes sense mate he did take a shitload of punishment in his time.... There is that other old argument of him losing a few fights when he started out but they were never recorded for some reason, can't remember the reason behind it or if its even true :-\Quote:
Originally Posted by mars_axi read somewhere that real reason marciano retired was because of all the trauma to his face/nose/head and the fact that he suffered from severe back pains in his last few fights. I also heard that he didn't want to continue giving a big chunk of his purses to his manager al weill, reported to be as much as 50%.Quote:
Originally Posted by saddo
Marciano was a great champion, who defeated everyone they put in front of him, most by ko. When all is said and done, whether or not rocky would have been able to hang with bigger, stronger, heavyweights, like liston, ali, holmes, or tyson, remains to be seen, and really makes little difference.
it would make sense as his amateur career was piss poor if the copy i have is anything to go by... It was given to me about 7 years ago while it was still being researched.
I can upload it if anyone is interested.
saddo please upload!! Would love to see it ;)
OK mate have hunted them out... basically he turned pro in 1947 but still carried on fighting as an amateur in 1948 under the name of Roco Marchegiano (think that was his real name) trying to win the golden gloves and got beat by Coley Wallace and that must be the loss everyone talks about.
I have also attached the article on it for you ;)
Saddo dont know where you dug that up, that is a classic and rare piece of boxing history. IN all the years of my Marciano research I have never come across anything so poignantly and strikingly informative as this. Wonderful job there to find it and post it here. This certainly fills in many, many of the missing months of the Portland, Oregon boxrec on him, as well as shine the light on alot of the Rhode Island bouts as well. :)
Superb. Thank you! :)
cheers mate I got it from a historian about 7 years ago... and its been on my hard drive ever since as i knew it was quite rare ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by brocktonblockbust
glad you liked it :)
I watched a (surprisingly good) 1999 made for TV movie "Rocky Marciano" staring Jon Favreau who did a good job playing Marciano, if you get a chance, rent the movie and check it out.
Rocky Marciano (TV 1999) - IMDb
In the movie, it shows Marciano turning pro after just a few amateur fights, it's absolutely amazing how far he was able to go as a pro, with so little training, and so few amateur fights. He basically did it all with guts and determination.
I will concede that Ali was the greatest Heavyweight of all time. However, my all time GOAT award has to go to Sugar Ray Robinson. The man was way ahead of his time.