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I think since he got his 'win' over Marquez, that Chris John hasn't fought very live top class opposition.
He has no losses, two draws, and one of those was in recent memory against Jaurez, which he avenged but i must say although top class, Juarez in no where near the most dangerous little guy around John's division.
to me this is lesser noticed than say Floyd, but seems that John may be protecting his undefeated record?
Of course he's protecting his record. He won't leave the Philippines and the people he fights are God awful. Throw him to Gamboa and it would be 1 very quick night! Chris John is just very average to me, decent chin, decent stamina, but speed? Power? The guy is nothing flashy at all.
Indonesia you mean. Yea he'd rather make easy money in his backyard instead of challenging himself in the states...Quote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong
I think the Juarez fight kinda spooked him cuz the judges were looking to rob him..
I got to disagree about one thing though.. Chris JOhn is no average fighter.. Any fighter who fights neck n neck with a prime Marquez is no ordinary fighter.
He may not be flashy or exceptional in any one area but that doesn't mean that he's average.
He's been champion since 03 and that's no easy task regardless of how many bums he's fought..
Dragon John is a bad ass fighter..
Chris John is a fighter that doe's every thing Well just a all round great little fighter,you dont have to be flash to be good just a master boxer that's Chris John.:clap:
In his defense, JOhn was willing to face Gamboa this past March but scumbag Arum fucked it up as always.
Late last year, Gamboa and Co made a verbal agreement with John that the fight would take place in March 11' but TR had a change of heart and chose to fight that bum Solis instead.. And i know for a fact that it wasn't JOhn's fault.. John agreed to all the terms and wanted Gamboa badly but he got left hanging at the last minute..
He's not exactly jumping to fight all the top guys but at the same time, fighters aren't eager to face him either.. They know what he's about..
Chris John is wasting his time fighting obscure fighters in Indonesia any way you look at it. He is good, but we'll never know if he is great because he hasn't really challenged himself in years. If he wanted Gamboa that badly he would have already fought him. It's not like Gamboa has ducked anybody and considering he is risking moving up to lightweight to challenge Rios, I'd say he is considerably more ambitious than John. Gamboa isn't the only name at featherweight either.Quote:
Originally Posted by FinitoElDinamita
I find him at this stage in his career very comparable to Felix Sturm although I rank the Knife higher than most of John's recent opponents (not that Daud Yordan is that bad, but he was coming off a bad loss to Caballero). Both are longstanding champions that are willing to ride out their career in their home country.
Quote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong
Thats a guy that i specifically had in mind, when gamboa had a couple of titles and they wanted big names with belts for him John had been mentioned as an opponent, but that never came off and Gamboa continues to look for big fights and even had his own alphabets stripped so its less of a big fight for Yuriorkis even though i think they could still do it..
Another point when i first posted is that Chris John isnt getting any younger, i wonder if he keeps fighting on these smaller shows against lesser comp he might keep his record in tact for now but imo he is or has been geniune world class where he can hang at the top level, but if he doesnt keep his competition high he might have trouble next time he runs into a big money fight against a live fighter, so in the end it could be his un doing
IT's more complicated than that bro. He agreed to the purse and even the venue but TR viewed him as a high risk/low reward opponent so they backed out for a soft touch in Solis.. If Arum doesnt want it, then the fight isn't going to happen regardless of how badly the fighter wants it..Quote:
Originally Posted by RantcatratChris John is wasting his time fighting obscure fighters in Indonesia any way you look at it. He is good, but we'll never know if he is great because he hasn't really challenged himself in years. If he wanted Gamboa that badly he would have already fought him. It's not like Gamboa has ducked anybody and considering he is risking moving up to lightweight to challenge Rios, I'd say he is considerably more ambitious than John. Gamboa isn't the only name at featherweight either.Quote:
Originally Posted by FinitoElDinamita
I find him at this stage in his career very comparable to Felix Sturm although I rank the Knife higher than most of John's recent opponents (not that Daud Yordan is that bad, but he was coming off a bad loss to Caballero). Both are longstanding champions that are willing to ride out their career in their home country.
Gamboa has avoided a few fighters... For a guy who has been holding a title for as long as he has, his resume should look alot better than that. He's yet to be in a 50-50 fight but im not surprised cuz that's how Arum handles his fighters.. He babies them until that perfect fight comes up..
Gamboa is like Lucian Bute right now.. BOth held titles for awhile but they aren't fighting real threats..
Rios fight is just that right now.. talks... until he actually faces rios in the ring, i view him as a protected fighter.
Can you point me to a link that Arum didn't want Gamboa facing John?Quote:
Originally Posted by FinitoElDinamitaIT's more complicated than that bro. He agreed to the purse and even the venue but TR viewed him as a high risk/low reward opponent so they backed out for a soft touch in Solis.. If Arum doesnt want it, then the fight isn't going to happen regardless of how badly the fighter wants it..Quote:
Originally Posted by RantcatratChris John is wasting his time fighting obscure fighters in Indonesia any way you look at it. He is good, but we'll never know if he is great because he hasn't really challenged himself in years. If he wanted Gamboa that badly he would have already fought him. It's not like Gamboa has ducked anybody and considering he is risking moving up to lightweight to challenge Rios, I'd say he is considerably more ambitious than John. Gamboa isn't the only name at featherweight either.Quote:
Originally Posted by FinitoElDinamita
I find him at this stage in his career very comparable to Felix Sturm although I rank the Knife higher than most of John's recent opponents (not that Daud Yordan is that bad, but he was coming off a bad loss to Caballero). Both are longstanding champions that are willing to ride out their career in their home country.
Gamboa has avoided a few fighters... For a guy who has been holding a title for as long as he has, his resume should look alot better than that. He's yet to be in a 50-50 fight but im not surprised cuz that's how Arum handles his fighters.. He babies them until that perfect fight comes up..
Gamboa is like Lucian Bute right now.. BOth held titles for awhile but they aren't fighting real threats..
Rios fight is just that right now.. talks... until he actually faces rios in the ring, i view him as a protected fighter.
I guess I probably overrate Gamboa in your estimation, but in my opinion the Lopez fight didn't happen because Top Rank thought of Lopez as the bigger attraction and knew he would be blasted out. The thought backfired when Lopez was blasted out by Salido. The same thing is happening here with Rios, I think Top Rank sees Rios as more marketable and is feeding Gamboa to him. That said, I don't see why Top Rank would avoid John. That doesn't make any sense at all to me. He didn't look invincible against Jaurez by any means especially in comparison with Gamboa.
I also don't understand why John hasn't faced anyone real in a while. That's my main issue with him. There are much better fights out there than Stanyslav Merdov.
Difference with Bute is that there isn't one available competitor that he hasn't faced that he should have faced. Do you get what I mean? There was a point where John, Gamboa, Lopez, and Caballero were all credible threats in the same division at the same time and not one fought each other. I understand there is more to it than that, but there are even more credible opponents for John besides Gamboa. Say what you want to say about Bute, but it's not like he has ducked anyone. He just hasn't had the chance to fight Andre Ward or Carl Froch yet. If the super six finishes and Bute fights Pavlik or something, what you say about him may be true.
I can't do it right now but Ill look for that article later.. But i do remember, clearly.. Arum said John wasnt worth the risk..Quote:
Originally Posted by RantcatratCan you point me to a link that Arum didn't want Gamboa facing John?Quote:
Originally Posted by FinitoElDinamitaIT's more complicated than that bro. He agreed to the purse and even the venue but TR viewed him as a high risk/low reward opponent so they backed out for a soft touch in Solis.. If Arum doesnt want it, then the fight isn't going to happen regardless of how badly the fighter wants it..Quote:
Originally Posted by RantcatratChris John is wasting his time fighting obscure fighters in Indonesia any way you look at it. He is good, but we'll never know if he is great because he hasn't really challenged himself in years. If he wanted Gamboa that badly he would have already fought him. It's not like Gamboa has ducked anybody and considering he is risking moving up to lightweight to challenge Rios, I'd say he is considerably more ambitious than John. Gamboa isn't the only name at featherweight either.Quote:
Originally Posted by FinitoElDinamita
I find him at this stage in his career very comparable to Felix Sturm although I rank the Knife higher than most of John's recent opponents (not that Daud Yordan is that bad, but he was coming off a bad loss to Caballero). Both are longstanding champions that are willing to ride out their career in their home country.
Gamboa has avoided a few fighters... For a guy who has been holding a title for as long as he has, his resume should look alot better than that. He's yet to be in a 50-50 fight but im not surprised cuz that's how Arum handles his fighters.. He babies them until that perfect fight comes up..
Gamboa is like Lucian Bute right now.. BOth held titles for awhile but they aren't fighting real threats..
Rios fight is just that right now.. talks... until he actually faces rios in the ring, i view him as a protected fighter.
I guess I probably overrate Gamboa in your estimation, but in my opinion the Lopez fight didn't happen because Top Rank thought of Lopez as the bigger attraction and knew he would be blasted out. The thought backfired when Lopez was blasted out by Salido. The same thing is happening here with Rios, I think Top Rank sees Rios as more marketable and is feeding Gamboa to him. That said, I don't see why Top Rank would avoid John. That doesn't make any sense at all to me. He didn't look invincible against Jaurez by any means especially in comparison with Gamboa.
I also don't understand why John hasn't faced anyone real in a while. That's my main issue with him. There are much better fights out there than Stanyslav Merdov.
Difference with Bute is that there isn't one available competitor that he hasn't faced that he should have faced. Do you get what I mean? There was a point where John, Gamboa, Lopez, and Caballero were all credible threats in the same division at the same time and not one fought each other. I understand there is more to it than that, but there are even more credible opponents for John besides Gamboa. Say what you want to say about Bute, but it's not like he has ducked anyone. He just hasn't had the chance to fight Andre Ward or Carl Froch yet. If the super six finishes and Bute fights Pavlik or something, what you say about him may be true.
I totally agree about Lopez and Rios though.. They are more marketable with a growing fan base so Arum sees them as a bigger asset.. Gamboa is more talented than both these guys combined but he doesn't put asses in the seats so arum is willing to take more chances with him..
I think we had this chat before, Rant, but I stand by the comparison i made with Gamboa/Bute..
Yea the Super6 kept Bute from getting a meaningful fight but what was he doing before the the tourney started? He won his title at the end of 07 and the tourney started at the end of 09 so why didnt he attempt to fight a live body or unify in those 2 years??
I know a few of those bouts could have been mandatories but c'mon now. As a titleholder, he had no business wasting two years fighting a bunch of gimmie fights..
There's not one prime, elite fighter on Bute's resume and that's ridiculous. IT's easy to use super6 as an excuse but he had two years to make a meaningful fight yet he didnt.. He was content on milking his title in his backyard against inferior opposition and i dont see him fighting out of his comfort zone anytime soon..
I know and I asked you before to name someone that he ducked.Quote:
Originally Posted by FinitoElDinamitaI think we had this chat before, Rant, but I stand by the comparison i made with Gamboa/Bute..Quote:
Originally Posted by RantcatratCan you point me to a link that Arum didn't want Gamboa facing John?Quote:
Originally Posted by FinitoElDinamitaIT's more complicated than that bro. He agreed to the purse and even the venue but TR viewed him as a high risk/low reward opponent so they backed out for a soft touch in Solis.. If Arum doesnt want it, then the fight isn't going to happen regardless of how badly the fighter wants it..Quote:
Originally Posted by RantcatratChris John is wasting his time fighting obscure fighters in Indonesia any way you look at it. He is good, but we'll never know if he is great because he hasn't really challenged himself in years. If he wanted Gamboa that badly he would have already fought him. It's not like Gamboa has ducked anybody and considering he is risking moving up to lightweight to challenge Rios, I'd say he is considerably more ambitious than John. Gamboa isn't the only name at featherweight either.Quote:
Originally Posted by FinitoElDinamita
I find him at this stage in his career very comparable to Felix Sturm although I rank the Knife higher than most of John's recent opponents (not that Daud Yordan is that bad, but he was coming off a bad loss to Caballero). Both are longstanding champions that are willing to ride out their career in their home country.
Gamboa has avoided a few fighters... For a guy who has been holding a title for as long as he has, his resume should look alot better than that. He's yet to be in a 50-50 fight but im not surprised cuz that's how Arum handles his fighters.. He babies them until that perfect fight comes up..
Gamboa is like Lucian Bute right now.. BOth held titles for awhile but they aren't fighting real threats..
Rios fight is just that right now.. talks... until he actually faces rios in the ring, i view him as a protected fighter.
I guess I probably overrate Gamboa in your estimation, but in my opinion the Lopez fight didn't happen because Top Rank thought of Lopez as the bigger attraction and knew he would be blasted out. The thought backfired when Lopez was blasted out by Salido. The same thing is happening here with Rios, I think Top Rank sees Rios as more marketable and is feeding Gamboa to him. That said, I don't see why Top Rank would avoid John. That doesn't make any sense at all to me. He didn't look invincible against Jaurez by any means especially in comparison with Gamboa.
I also don't understand why John hasn't faced anyone real in a while. That's my main issue with him. There are much better fights out there than Stanyslav Merdov.
Difference with Bute is that there isn't one available competitor that he hasn't faced that he should have faced. Do you get what I mean? There was a point where John, Gamboa, Lopez, and Caballero were all credible threats in the same division at the same time and not one fought each other. I understand there is more to it than that, but there are even more credible opponents for John besides Gamboa. Say what you want to say about Bute, but it's not like he has ducked anyone. He just hasn't had the chance to fight Andre Ward or Carl Froch yet. If the super six finishes and Bute fights Pavlik or something, what you say about him may be true.
Yea the Super6 kept Bute from getting a meaningful fight but what was he doing before the the tourney started? He won his title at the end of 07 and the tourney started at the end of 09 so why didnt he attempt to fight a live body or unify in those 2 years??
I know a few of those bouts could have been mandatories but c'mon now. As a titleholder, he had no business wasting two years fighting a bunch of gimmie fights..
There's not one prime, elite fighter on Bute's resume and that's ridiculous. IT's easy to use super6 as an excuse but he had two years to make a meaningful fight yet he didnt.. He was content on milking his title in his backyard against inferior opposition and i dont see him fighting out of his comfort zone anytime soon..
In 2007, Bute had just been named champion. My answers are as follows: (1) Calzaghe vacated the belts when he moved up in weight to face Bernard Hopkins and Roy Jones so there wasn't a belt to unify; (2) considering his opponents prior to the title elminator with Bika, his choice of opponents after that win were appropriate; and (3) he was facing the exact level of opponents that Calzaghe and Kessler had faced prior to their unification fight that occurred right around the exact time that Bute got his belt.
After Calzaghe unified and then left the division, who should Bute have faced? Who was there during that time that he should have faced and didn't? Only Carl Froch really comes to mind and from what I recall, they had a fight planned, but Bute wanted to avenge his performance with Andrade and Froch then joined the S6.
Between 2007 and 2009 Bute was exactly where he should have been for where he was in his professional career as a boxer. Between 2007 and the beginning of the S6, he fought and dominated Sakio Bika, Berrio, Andrade and Zuniga. Consider that prior to the Bika fight, his best win was over Kabrery Salem. In my opinion, that is exactly the kind of trajectory that he should have had at that point in time because Berrio, Andrade and Zuniga are actually good initial defenses for a new champion. He was making the natural steps up the food chain.
Second, he was facing the guys that the other more established champions had just faced. He fought Sakio Bika and Kabrary Salem shortly after Joe Calzaghe fought them. He fought Andrade shortly after Kessler fought him.
In 2007, when Calzaghe and Kessler fought they were the two champions in the division other than Bute. So, both Calzaghe and Kessler, champions of many years in Calzaghe's case and a few years in Kessler's case, were fighting the exact same level of fighter Bute was, but Bute had only just become champion! After beating Kessler, Calzaghe moved up in weight out of Bute's weight class and after suffering the defeat against Calzaghe, Kessler retreated to the safe confines of Denmark to face Sartison, Hausler and Perdomo - if I may add worse opponents than Bute's during that time period.
Were Froch's opponents better than Bute's between 2007 and 2009? Yes, mostly because he fought and beat Pascal and Taylor and I never said differently, but Bute's were no worse than Kessler, they were better than Ward's, and better than Dirrell's.
Bottom line, Bute should have been included in the S6 and his career has suffered as a result prior to beating down Glencoffe Johnson.
Here is a statement by Todd Debeouf that the reason the fight hadn't happened is because John wants to remain in Indonesia.
Yuriorkis Gamboa-Chris John is Still The Plan, Says Arum - Boxing News
Chris John’s coach eyes Gamboa clash | The Jakarta Post
To be fair, what it sounds like for the money it would take to get John to come to the US isn't worth it to both parties.
Isn't Rios a lightweight?
Either way I want Rios to get stomped out and Chris John to catch a beatdown too.
Yes, but there has been talk of Gamboa moving up to face him. It seems a bit wild because wouldn't it mean John skips a division? To me, it sounds like Top Rank sacrificing Gamboa in a way. Not that he doesn't have a chance to win, but there are lucrative fights at his weight class right now, why go up?Quote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong
Dang Rant going in deep with this... haha I appreciate your timeline, rant, I really do..Quote:
Originally Posted by RantcatratI know and I asked you before to name someone that he ducked.Quote:
Originally Posted by FinitoElDinamitaI think we had this chat before, Rant, but I stand by the comparison i made with Gamboa/Bute..Quote:
Originally Posted by RantcatratCan you point me to a link that Arum didn't want Gamboa facing John?Quote:
Originally Posted by FinitoElDinamitaIT's more complicated than that bro. He agreed to the purse and even the venue but TR viewed him as a high risk/low reward opponent so they backed out for a soft touch in Solis.. If Arum doesnt want it, then the fight isn't going to happen regardless of how badly the fighter wants it..Quote:
Originally Posted by RantcatratChris John is wasting his time fighting obscure fighters in Indonesia any way you look at it. He is good, but we'll never know if he is great because he hasn't really challenged himself in years. If he wanted Gamboa that badly he would have already fought him. It's not like Gamboa has ducked anybody and considering he is risking moving up to lightweight to challenge Rios, I'd say he is considerably more ambitious than John. Gamboa isn't the only name at featherweight either.Quote:
Originally Posted by FinitoElDinamita
I find him at this stage in his career very comparable to Felix Sturm although I rank the Knife higher than most of John's recent opponents (not that Daud Yordan is that bad, but he was coming off a bad loss to Caballero). Both are longstanding champions that are willing to ride out their career in their home country.
Gamboa has avoided a few fighters... For a guy who has been holding a title for as long as he has, his resume should look alot better than that. He's yet to be in a 50-50 fight but im not surprised cuz that's how Arum handles his fighters.. He babies them until that perfect fight comes up..
Gamboa is like Lucian Bute right now.. BOth held titles for awhile but they aren't fighting real threats..
Rios fight is just that right now.. talks... until he actually faces rios in the ring, i view him as a protected fighter.
I guess I probably overrate Gamboa in your estimation, but in my opinion the Lopez fight didn't happen because Top Rank thought of Lopez as the bigger attraction and knew he would be blasted out. The thought backfired when Lopez was blasted out by Salido. The same thing is happening here with Rios, I think Top Rank sees Rios as more marketable and is feeding Gamboa to him. That said, I don't see why Top Rank would avoid John. That doesn't make any sense at all to me. He didn't look invincible against Jaurez by any means especially in comparison with Gamboa.
I also don't understand why John hasn't faced anyone real in a while. That's my main issue with him. There are much better fights out there than Stanyslav Merdov.
Difference with Bute is that there isn't one available competitor that he hasn't faced that he should have faced. Do you get what I mean? There was a point where John, Gamboa, Lopez, and Caballero were all credible threats in the same division at the same time and not one fought each other. I understand there is more to it than that, but there are even more credible opponents for John besides Gamboa. Say what you want to say about Bute, but it's not like he has ducked anyone. He just hasn't had the chance to fight Andre Ward or Carl Froch yet. If the super six finishes and Bute fights Pavlik or something, what you say about him may be true.
Yea the Super6 kept Bute from getting a meaningful fight but what was he doing before the the tourney started? He won his title at the end of 07 and the tourney started at the end of 09 so why didnt he attempt to fight a live body or unify in those 2 years??
I know a few of those bouts could have been mandatories but c'mon now. As a titleholder, he had no business wasting two years fighting a bunch of gimmie fights..
There's not one prime, elite fighter on Bute's resume and that's ridiculous. IT's easy to use super6 as an excuse but he had two years to make a meaningful fight yet he didnt.. He was content on milking his title in his backyard against inferior opposition and i dont see him fighting out of his comfort zone anytime soon..
In 2007, Bute had just been named champion. My answers are as follows: (1) Calzaghe vacated the belts when he moved up in weight to face Bernard Hopkins and Roy Jones so there wasn't a belt to unify; (2) considering his opponents prior to the title elminator with Bika, his choice of opponents after that win were appropriate; and (3) he was facing the exact level of opponents that Calzaghe and Kessler had faced prior to their unification fight that occurred right around the exact time that Bute got his belt.
After Calzaghe unified and then left the division, who should Bute have faced? Who was there during that time that he should have faced and didn't? Only Carl Froch really comes to mind and from what I recall, they had a fight planned, but Bute wanted to avenge his performance with Andrade and Froch then joined the S6.
Between 2007 and 2009 Bute was exactly where he should have been for where he was in his professional career as a boxer. Between 2007 and the beginning of the S6, he fought and dominated Sakio Bika, Berrio, Andrade and Zuniga. Consider that prior to the Bika fight, his best win was over Kabrery Salem. In my opinion, that is exactly the kind of trajectory that he should have had at that point in time because Berrio, Andrade and Zuniga are actually good initial defenses for a new champion. He was making the natural steps up the food chain.
Second, he was facing the guys that the other more established champions had just faced. He fought Sakio Bika and Kabrary Salem shortly after Joe Calzaghe fought them. He fought Andrade shortly after Kessler fought him.
In 2007, when Calzaghe and Kessler fought they were the two champions in the division other than Bute. So, both Calzaghe and Kessler, champions of many years in Calzaghe's case and a few years in Kessler's case, were fighting the exact same level of fighter Bute was, but Bute had only just become champion! After beating Kessler, Calzaghe moved up in weight out of Bute's weight class and after suffering the defeat against Calzaghe, Kessler retreated to the safe confines of Denmark to face Sartison, Hausler and Perdomo - if I may add worse opponents than Bute's during that time period.
Were Froch's opponents better than Bute's between 2007 and 2009? Yes, mostly because he fought and beat Pascal and Taylor and I never said differently, but Bute's were no worse than Kessler, they were better than Ward's, and better than Dirrell's.
Bottom line, Bute should have been included in the S6 and his career has suffered as a result prior to beating down Glencoffe Johnson.
But let's get something straight here. NO matter how hard one tries to justify Bute's lack of competition, many people have a problem with his resume..
Back in 2008-2009, when Allan Green used to be a relevant player, he tried to set up a fight with Bute numerous times only to be low balled with a ridiculous offer.. I believe that was Bute's way of saying " you're too risky !"
Are you telling me that the 65 year old William Joppys of the world were more credible than Allan Green at the time??
Let's just agree to disagree..
Come on Finito. I write that whole diatribe and that's all you got. :zzwhip: Kidding.Quote:
Originally Posted by FinitoElDinamitaDang Rant going in deep with this... haha I appreciate your timeline, rant, I really do..Quote:
Originally Posted by RantcatratI know and I asked you before to name someone that he ducked.Quote:
Originally Posted by FinitoElDinamitaI think we had this chat before, Rant, but I stand by the comparison i made with Gamboa/Bute..Quote:
Originally Posted by RantcatratCan you point me to a link that Arum didn't want Gamboa facing John?Quote:
Originally Posted by FinitoElDinamitaIT's more complicated than that bro. He agreed to the purse and even the venue but TR viewed him as a high risk/low reward opponent so they backed out for a soft touch in Solis.. If Arum doesnt want it, then the fight isn't going to happen regardless of how badly the fighter wants it..Quote:
Originally Posted by RantcatratChris John is wasting his time fighting obscure fighters in Indonesia any way you look at it. He is good, but we'll never know if he is great because he hasn't really challenged himself in years. If he wanted Gamboa that badly he would have already fought him. It's not like Gamboa has ducked anybody and considering he is risking moving up to lightweight to challenge Rios, I'd say he is considerably more ambitious than John. Gamboa isn't the only name at featherweight either.Quote:
Originally Posted by FinitoElDinamita
I find him at this stage in his career very comparable to Felix Sturm although I rank the Knife higher than most of John's recent opponents (not that Daud Yordan is that bad, but he was coming off a bad loss to Caballero). Both are longstanding champions that are willing to ride out their career in their home country.
Gamboa has avoided a few fighters... For a guy who has been holding a title for as long as he has, his resume should look alot better than that. He's yet to be in a 50-50 fight but im not surprised cuz that's how Arum handles his fighters.. He babies them until that perfect fight comes up..
Gamboa is like Lucian Bute right now.. BOth held titles for awhile but they aren't fighting real threats..
Rios fight is just that right now.. talks... until he actually faces rios in the ring, i view him as a protected fighter.
I guess I probably overrate Gamboa in your estimation, but in my opinion the Lopez fight didn't happen because Top Rank thought of Lopez as the bigger attraction and knew he would be blasted out. The thought backfired when Lopez was blasted out by Salido. The same thing is happening here with Rios, I think Top Rank sees Rios as more marketable and is feeding Gamboa to him. That said, I don't see why Top Rank would avoid John. That doesn't make any sense at all to me. He didn't look invincible against Jaurez by any means especially in comparison with Gamboa.
I also don't understand why John hasn't faced anyone real in a while. That's my main issue with him. There are much better fights out there than Stanyslav Merdov.
Difference with Bute is that there isn't one available competitor that he hasn't faced that he should have faced. Do you get what I mean? There was a point where John, Gamboa, Lopez, and Caballero were all credible threats in the same division at the same time and not one fought each other. I understand there is more to it than that, but there are even more credible opponents for John besides Gamboa. Say what you want to say about Bute, but it's not like he has ducked anyone. He just hasn't had the chance to fight Andre Ward or Carl Froch yet. If the super six finishes and Bute fights Pavlik or something, what you say about him may be true.
Yea the Super6 kept Bute from getting a meaningful fight but what was he doing before the the tourney started? He won his title at the end of 07 and the tourney started at the end of 09 so why didnt he attempt to fight a live body or unify in those 2 years??
I know a few of those bouts could have been mandatories but c'mon now. As a titleholder, he had no business wasting two years fighting a bunch of gimmie fights..
There's not one prime, elite fighter on Bute's resume and that's ridiculous. IT's easy to use super6 as an excuse but he had two years to make a meaningful fight yet he didnt.. He was content on milking his title in his backyard against inferior opposition and i dont see him fighting out of his comfort zone anytime soon..
In 2007, Bute had just been named champion. My answers are as follows: (1) Calzaghe vacated the belts when he moved up in weight to face Bernard Hopkins and Roy Jones so there wasn't a belt to unify; (2) considering his opponents prior to the title elminator with Bika, his choice of opponents after that win were appropriate; and (3) he was facing the exact level of opponents that Calzaghe and Kessler had faced prior to their unification fight that occurred right around the exact time that Bute got his belt.
After Calzaghe unified and then left the division, who should Bute have faced? Who was there during that time that he should have faced and didn't? Only Carl Froch really comes to mind and from what I recall, they had a fight planned, but Bute wanted to avenge his performance with Andrade and Froch then joined the S6.
Between 2007 and 2009 Bute was exactly where he should have been for where he was in his professional career as a boxer. Between 2007 and the beginning of the S6, he fought and dominated Sakio Bika, Berrio, Andrade and Zuniga. Consider that prior to the Bika fight, his best win was over Kabrery Salem. In my opinion, that is exactly the kind of trajectory that he should have had at that point in time because Berrio, Andrade and Zuniga are actually good initial defenses for a new champion. He was making the natural steps up the food chain.
Second, he was facing the guys that the other more established champions had just faced. He fought Sakio Bika and Kabrary Salem shortly after Joe Calzaghe fought them. He fought Andrade shortly after Kessler fought him.
In 2007, when Calzaghe and Kessler fought they were the two champions in the division other than Bute. So, both Calzaghe and Kessler, champions of many years in Calzaghe's case and a few years in Kessler's case, were fighting the exact same level of fighter Bute was, but Bute had only just become champion! After beating Kessler, Calzaghe moved up in weight out of Bute's weight class and after suffering the defeat against Calzaghe, Kessler retreated to the safe confines of Denmark to face Sartison, Hausler and Perdomo - if I may add worse opponents than Bute's during that time period.
Were Froch's opponents better than Bute's between 2007 and 2009? Yes, mostly because he fought and beat Pascal and Taylor and I never said differently, but Bute's were no worse than Kessler, they were better than Ward's, and better than Dirrell's.
Bottom line, Bute should have been included in the S6 and his career has suffered as a result prior to beating down Glencoffe Johnson.
But let's get something straight here. NO matter how hard one tries to justify Bute's lack of competition, many people have a problem with his resume..
Back in 2008-2009, when Allan Green used to be a relevant player, he tried to set up a fight with Bute numerous times only to be low balled with a ridiculous offer.. I believe that was Bute's way of saying " you're too risky !"
Are you telling me that the 65 year old William Joppys of the world were more credible than Allan Green at the time??
Let's just agree to disagree..
So, what you're saying is Lucian Bute ducked Allan Green? ;D Allan Green was fighting Carlos DeLeon if I recall around that time. He just wasn't there yet either. I'm a fan of Allan's too. Andrade and Bika at that time were top ten super middleweights to be clear.
Many people have a problem with Bute's resume and I can understand it to an extent. The reason is that he is getting a lot of press and he hasn't faced the other main guys in the division. I believe it isn't his fault. With the S6 finals in place, Bute tried to secure a fight with Quillin, Pavlik, Kessler, and finally Johnson accepted. I don't beleive he is doing what he can do fight the best. That's different than saying he is overrated. I believe people may overrate Bute because most of the time he stops people in dramatic fashion and people lose sight of the fact that some of the people he is stopping aren't great. That's fair honestly. I can't argue with that.
The reason why we argued is that I believe Bute's resume took a turn for the worse when he wasn't in the Super Six, but that otherwise he's done what he should be doing. There is no reason someone of his caliber (unless he needs a tune-up or something along those lines) needs to be fighting Brian Magee, Jesse Brinkley, or Jean Paul Mendy. They don't improve his resume at all. After just becoming champion, fighting Berrio, Andrade, Zuniga and Bika isn't bad especially when two of the three guys were ranked in the top ten. Bika still is. Oh one more example. Who did Tavoris Cloud fight in his first two defenses? Glen Johnson and Fulgencio Zuniga (which by the way Bute performed better against).
Truthfully, if Bute doesn't face Froch or Ward early next yea, I'll begin to have doubts too.