Why is Bradley Manning in prison whilst war criminals run free?

The Real News has done a fantastic piece of work with this coverage of the Bradley Manning situation. The footage shows US military servicemen murdering innocent people including the father of two young children who attempted to assist in the carnage by trying to tend to the shot. His children looked on and saw their dad shot to pieces. Later one of the children had pieces of glass pulled from her eye by a military serviceman who was on the scene and trying to deal with the fallout. The US military serviceman was blamed for not securing the area. How dare he assist bloodied children?

Today Bradley Manning who helped release this footage is held in prison in arguably tortuous conditions whilst the people who committed war crimes are free and off the hook.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOIPG...Ss1fNlqKtu7ZJi

I know what the typical responses to this thread will be. In many ways it is a blatant attempt to stifle discussion and marginalize my views. You defend what is right and proper and you have trolls defending state interests and blatant war crimes. "How dare Liberals suggest that our military defends war crimes?". Well, it is a fact and the evidence exists. And furthermore the US keeps political prisoners and that is precisely what Bradley Manning is.

So my poll of the week. Who should be in prison? Manning or the war criminal butchers?

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Originally Posted by miles

The Real News has done a fantastic piece of work with this coverage of the Bradley Manning situation. The footage shows US military servicemen murdering innocent people including the father of two young children who attempted to assist in the carnage by trying to tend to the shot. His children looked on and saw their dad shot to pieces. Later one of the children had pieces of glass pulled from her eye by a military serviceman who was on the scene and trying to deal with the fallout. The US military serviceman was blamed for not securing the area. How dare he assist bloodied children?

Today Bradley Manning who helped release this footage is held in prison in arguably tortuous conditions whilst the people who committed war crimes are free and off the hook.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOIPGRUL1CU&context=C261deADOEgsToPDskJiJn YVqSSs1fNlqKtu7ZJi

I know what the typical responses to this thread will be. In many ways it is a blatant attempt to stifle discussion and marginalize my views. You defend what is right and proper and you have trolls defending state interests and blatant war crimes. "How dare Liberals suggest that our military defends war crimes?". Well, it is a fact and the evidence exists. And furthermore the US keeps political prisoners and that is precisely what Bradley Manning is.

So my poll of the week. Who should be in prison? Manning or the war criminal butchers?

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I thought Bradley Manning was brown bread? Fell off a roof at Christmas, Stacey effed off abroad, Max tried to slide in there at the death but she gave him the Spanish?

Are you talking about some kind of English soap? It's completely over my head. I haven't watched that stuff in a decade. I've no idea.

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Originally Posted by miles

Are you talking about some kind of English soap? It's completely over my head. I haven't watched that stuff in a decade. I've no idea.

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Shut up you tart ;D

Actually it was an episode of Jeremy Kyle. I'll send yout the youtube link, its a cracker.

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Originally Posted by Memphis

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Originally Posted by miles

Are you talking about some kind of English soap? It's completely over my head. I haven't watched that stuff in a decade. I've no idea.

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Shut up you tart ;D

Actually it was an episode of Jeremy Kyle. I'll send yout the youtube link, its a cracker.

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Bring it on. Jeremy Kyle is a real life soap. That's what happens when you get Eastenders and a 15 million audience for 30 years.

I recall being home last February and seeing Jeremy Kyle on TV for the first time. It was downright peculiar.

Still, I would like to see this clip as it sounds rather dramatic.

So, back on track with the original thread intention. Why is Manning in prison whilst murderers run free?

I would prefer it if the thread would stay true to its original purpose as I think it is a serious topic and merits serious discussion.

I think I would rather see the real villain in prison, of course I mean Assange.

He has been exposed as a charlotan and a phony now several times over. Trying to stop the publication of a biography about him pretty much sums up what a hypocritical fool he is.

Manning was probabaly an ideologist who believed he was doing the right thing. Assange just took his evidence, published it and then left him to rot.

Death to Assange.

Note Miles, as you didn't include Assange on your poll I had no choice but to vote for Manning's incarcaration. So in some ways, you are to blame for his plight.

It's like me shooting you in the head and the police saying 'go home lad they've got nothing on you'. There is only the bloody CCTV which has been released by the security guard. And you stick him in prison? Okay he shouldn't have released it, but murderers go free?

That says a lot.

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Originally Posted by Bilbo

Note Miles, as you didn't include Assange on your poll I had no choice but to vote for Manning's incarcaration. So in some ways, you are to blame for his plight.

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I take absolutely no responsibility for being Julian Assange and to be honest I have been disappointed with him recently. He has gone all autobiographical and forgotten about challenging the evils of empire.

I guess it is hard though when the global dictators don't even allow you to finance your rebellion. It is harder than ever to rise up and this is why all those that are being put down need to band together.

I don't advocate peaceful revolution. I advocate blood and mayhem as peace has no bearing. The US IS a dictatorship and I want revolution and seeing as there are so many guns there should be more blood.

Take to Wall Street with machine guns and then see where it takes you. You can't argue with a hundred thousand with machine guns.

All Brad did was show some war crimes, I am suggesting much worse.

miles, miles, miles.....Bradley Manning STOLE classified documents and handed them over to Julian Assange to publish for public consumption. Documents which could have lead to further military action taken by the United States and other nations.

Julian Assange et al are anarchists that think the world is an unfair evil place and while they want to shed light on what they perceive as injustice and illegal activities but due to the reality of several nations having nuclear weapons they have put 100% of the population of this planet in danger....to me that is unforgiveable.

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

miles, miles, miles.....Bradley Manning STOLE classified documents and handed them over to Julian Assange to publish for public consumption. Documents which could have lead to further military action taken by the United States and other nations.

Julian Assange et al are anarchists that think the world is an unfair evil place and while they want to shed light on what they perceive as injustice and illegal activities but due to the reality of several nations having nuclear weapons they have put 100% of the population of this planet in danger....to me that is unforgiveable.

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Who has died because of what Manning released?

Your nation murdered the father of children and your own serviceman was told not to protect the children.

How blinkered are you? A war crime was committed and you expect a good person to defend that? Because he made a contract with an abstract concept like a state rather than his own humanity?

Lyle, honesty is always the best recipe and you would rather be a loafer to a state and be a dishonest human being. Over time you have shown that again and again, but this time it is so blatant and to see you treading the same line actually makes me laugh.

People were murdered, but oh documents were stolen. Is that the big beef? You lamb! Elsberg would have picked you out of his teeth.

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

miles, miles, miles.....Bradley Manning STOLE classified documents and handed them over to Julian Assange to publish for public consumption. Documents which could have lead to further military action taken by the United States and other nations.

Julian Assange et al are anarchists that think the world is an unfair evil place and while they want to shed light on what they perceive as injustice and illegal activities but due to the reality of several nations having nuclear weapons they have put 100% of the population of this planet in danger....to me that is unforgiveable.

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No, you are retarded for thinking that way. Nobody has died.

Bring your suspicions to a court of law. Nothing.

But one man is kept there and war criminals run free.

In wonderfully spaced out sentences, those are the facts.

Luckily nobody has died because of what Manning has released, but do you honestly doubt it could have happened? Julian Assange is a threat to peace. Sure honesty is the best policy, but CONTEXT is a huge key when dealing with such things.


The road to Hell is paved with good intentions miles....perhaps you had best remind your anarchist friends of that

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

Luckily nobody has died because of what Manning has released, but do you honestly doubt it could have happened? Julian Assange is a threat to peace. Sure honesty is the best policy, but CONTEXT is a huge key when dealing with such things.


The road to Hell is paved with good intentions miles....perhaps you had best remind your anarchist friends of that

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So Lyle, should those murderers be in prison?

Yes or no?

And did Manning do a public service in showing us that horrible data?

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Originally Posted by miles

So Lyle, should those murderers be in prison?

Yes or no?

And did Manning do a public service in showing us that horrible data?

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If troops acted in an illegal manner then they should be disciplined. Bradley Manning acted in an illegal manner and he is being disciplined. No, Manning did the United States and more importantly it's citizens no favors.

The goal of Julian Assange is to destroy America miles I think understanding that is a key factor in anything and everything Assange says or does

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

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Originally Posted by miles

So Lyle, should those murderers be in prison?

Yes or no?

And did Manning do a public service in showing us that horrible data?

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If troops acted in an illegal manner then they should be disciplined. Bradley acted in an illegal manner and he is being disciplined. No, Manning did the United States and more importantly it's citizens no favors.

The goal of Julian Assange is to destroy America miles I think understanding that is a key factor in anything and everything Assange says or does

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Assange was the messenger, Bradley gave the data. The US excused the war crime.

You seriously blame Assange in that?

That is really fucked up. Assange didn't kill anyone, Bradley reported a war crime of people actually killing people and you blame Assange and Bradley for reporting?

And Assange wants to destroy America! Haha, what an idiot you are.

And you really don't think your nation has committed war crimes? You are brainwashed.

All parties involved have a degree of guilt.

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

All parties involved have a degree of guilt.

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Gayness.

Look at the video and just accept what is a fact.

Do you really think me shooting your Dad in the head should be kept secret because I was in someway a secret agent.

It is bullshit, Lyle. It is murder and a war crime. Poor kids lost their father and one had glass plucked out of the eyes.

Easy win, but it was no win. It was just honesty. Lyle needs newspapers to see honesty.

ahh the highly reputable Real News strikes again. I'm not going to speak to the video unless you can provide me a more reputable source of the video. In regards to Manning; Intel Soldiers are given countless numbers of hours of training on clearances, and releasability of information and sign non-disclosure acts. PVT Manning broke several laws by releasing the documents and it is impossible he did not know exactly what he was doing. To say no one has been killed due to the release of the documents is also not accurate but regardless if you believe in the rule of law then Manning deserves to face the punishment for his actions. Agreeing with the law or not is irrelevant in this case.

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Originally Posted by VictorCharlie

ahh the highly reputable Real News strikes again. I'm not going to speak to the video unless you can provide me a more reputable source of the video. In regards to Manning; Intel Soldiers are given countless numbers of hours of training on clearances, and releasability of information and sign non-disclosure acts. PVT Manning broke several laws by releasing the documents and it is impossible he did not know exactly what he was doing. To say no one has been killed due to the release of the documents is also not accurate but regardless if you believe in the rule of law then Manning deserves to face the punishment for his actions. Agreeing with the law or not is irrelevant in this case.

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So you need expensive advertising to be regarded as reputable news? This is mainly taken from a German documentary and The Real News simply expanded upon it. It is a good piece.

But regardless, you ignore the fact that blatant murderers run free, whilst a whistle blower is locked in confinement.

You are a man that knows right from wrong and I am sure that you agree that you shouldn't shield war criminals.

I recall the last time I read a thread where you posted Real News about Gitmo I believe and no other news service world wide was reporting the information that ultimately proved to be false. So I think my reservations are founded. I guess I don't understand your argument though. The U.S. has court martialed multiple service members for crimes in both Iraq and Afghanistan. I am not sure about this particular incident but even if they haven't been brought to justice what does that have to do with Manning? He still violated numerous and his actions have caused people to be murdered. Whistle blower is a euphemism in the biggest way. All Soldiers should be held to the letter of the law whether its murder or treason. You can't pick and choose which laws you want to follow for political expediency

He was in the military, what he did was treason.

Regardless whether or not you agree with his actions (FWIW I feel ambivalent about what he did), I would argue that he actually got off pretty easily. There are a LOT of countries which would have done unspeakable things to the poor fucker before they brutally murdered him. When he voluntarily joined the army, he willingly ceded certainly right, freedom of speech being among them.

Anybody commiting crimes, foreign or at home, should be punished equally by the law without discrimination for the job, race, sex etc. The info Manning did released will help to sentence soldiers who did horrible things but wouldn't have came known otherwise. That is a good thing, not to say a very good one, especially because sentencing these soldiers might patch back a bit for what they have done. A bit. Which is already better than nothing.
However, leaking military stuff ain't like giving cookies to poor kids. IT is a VERY serious thing. Manning knew it. He still did it. With style, he did leak... everything. Which means he didn't separate the infos, what people should rightfully know and what is too sensitive and could compromise the life of rightful officials and soldiers on the field. HOw many gigs was that already? That, on the other hand, was a cruel mistake. I didn't skim through all the documents but I am certain that some people are now at risk because of some of the infos.
For this reason, it is very intricated, especially because it is entangle in a world of rules and laws and when one is absolutely found guilty, it's quite clear what's heading. Some greater criminals might deserve to be sentenced and aren't, more than Manning, but opposite to him, they can (unfortunately) play with the legal frame and get away with it. Sadly, the legal world ain't built well enough.

So: Do other criminals deserve harsher punishment than Manning? Of course.

Were Manning intentions good? I think so.

Did he screw up? Big time by a lack of judgement and just uploading it all without discern about the documents.

Should he be forgiven? Despite his initial intentions.. no. Because he did screw up and because it wouldn't send the right message to the others who just like him are manipulating sensitive informations and who could perhaps make an even bigger screw up than him.

The soldiers have not been punished for their actions. If Manning had not released the video it would have all been swept under the carpet and random killings would continue. It is obvious that there is little accountability for war crimes in the present day US military. If there was, then the soldiers would have been punished. However, this hasn't happened.

Manning broke an oath, but in doing so did an extremely noble and courageous thing. I salute the man and regard him as a modern American hero. A true patriot who tried to show how his nation was abusing its power. This is what patriots do. They don't make empty promises to a flag, they stand by their righteous and humanitarian convictions.

What is obvious is your complete ignorance about the U.S. Military and the secondary and tertiary effects of Mannings leak.

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Originally Posted by VictorCharlie

What is obvious is your complete ignorance about the U.S. Military and the secondary and tertiary effects of Mannings leak.

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No, a war crime was commited and people went unpunished. It isn't a particularly complicated case to make looking at the attitudes and behaviour of the soldiers who commited the acts. It is clearly in the public interest to see this kind of footage.

In an age where the mainstream media refuses to pursue real stories, people like Manning become ever more important.

Where's my Jeremy Kyle link? I want to see the other Bradley Manning now.

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Originally Posted by miles

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Originally Posted by VictorCharlie

What is obvious is your complete ignorance about the U.S. Military and the secondary and tertiary effects of Mannings leak.

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No, a war crime was commited and people went unpunished. It isn't a particularly complicated case to make looking at the attitudes and behaviour of the soldiers who commited the acts. It is clearly in the public interest to see this kind of footage.

In an age where the mainstream media refuses to pursue real stories, people like Manning become ever more important.

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Assuming the video is as you say I don't disagree with first part of your post, it is your sweeping and uninformed generalizations about the U.S. Military that are incorrect. If the release leads to justice in the case of the video then great but that in no way changes the fact that Manning is a criminal and that the releases of those documents have caused people to lose their lives. He deserves the same justice as any other criminal.

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Originally Posted by VictorCharlie

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Originally Posted by miles

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Originally Posted by VictorCharlie

What is obvious is your complete ignorance about the U.S. Military and the secondary and tertiary effects of Mannings leak.

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No, a war crime was commited and people went unpunished. It isn't a particularly complicated case to make looking at the attitudes and behaviour of the soldiers who commited the acts. It is clearly in the public interest to see this kind of footage.

In an age where the mainstream media refuses to pursue real stories, people like Manning become ever more important.

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Assuming the video is as you say I don't disagree with first part of your post, it is your sweeping and uninformed generalizations about the U.S. Military that are incorrect. If the release leads to justice in the case of the video then great but that in no way changes the fact that Manning is a criminal and that the releases of those documents have caused people to lose their lives. He deserves the same justice as any other criminal.

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Sure, he committed a crime so give him normal prison life. Not this solitary confinement torture. Not being allowed to sleep more than 4 hours in a row is evil treatment. I mean, incarcerate the man, but don't degrade him so. He is still a human being and seemingly a very good one.

What this story points out is the way power has sought to deflect and hasn't actually punished people for the more significant crime of blatant murder. Soldiers like in the video need to be weeded out as they are harmful to the US and in shielding them it makes the military elite themselves look very bad.

Those children have no father for no good reason. That cannot be allowed to go unpunished. If it does then it shows how degraded we ourselves have become. It is deplorable and shouldn't be so.

Military jail is tough. More so than a regular prison but it is pretty easy not to end up there and the whole sleep deprivation bit is absurd. There is so much oversight at military detention facilities now that there is no way his claims of sleep deprivation are true. If solitary confinement doesn't sound good to you then 1. Don't join the military and 2. If you do don't break the rules. Pretty easy thing to avoid. Miles you are aware that Army has tried and convicted somewhere around 10 Soldiers for crimes in Iraq/Afghanistan? LoW, Geneva, escalation of force and the rules of engagement are taken very seriously in the military.

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Originally Posted by VictorCharlie

Military jail is tough. More so than a regular prison but it is pretty easy not to end up there and the whole sleep deprivation bit is absurd. There is so much oversight at military detention facilities now that there is no way his claims of sleep deprivation are true. If solitary confinement doesn't sound good to you then 1. Don't join the military and 2. If you do don't break the rules. Pretty easy thing to avoid. Miles you are aware that Army has tried and convicted somewhere around 10 Soldiers for crimes in Iraq/Afghanistan? LoW, Geneva, escalation of force and the rules of engagement are taken very seriously in the military.

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I hope it is taken very seriously.

How about war crimes not be committed in the first place though? And how about absurd wars not be started too?

I have eased my stance on the US military in recent times because of my own experiences at the base and through interaction with people like you, but instances like this make me very angry.

You just cannot defend the killing of innocent people. And when you have criminals like Obama who lied to get elected and also have the media saying that someone like Manning is a liar and should be vilified. Well, that to me is a double standard. The small soldier suffers, whilst the power elite representative gets away scot free.

It is incredibly wrong.

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Originally Posted by miles

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Originally Posted by VictorCharlie

Military jail is tough. More so than a regular prison but it is pretty easy not to end up there and the whole sleep deprivation bit is absurd. There is so much oversight at military detention facilities now that there is no way his claims of sleep deprivation are true. If solitary confinement doesn't sound good to you then 1. Don't join the military and 2. If you do don't break the rules. Pretty easy thing to avoid. Miles you are aware that Army has tried and convicted somewhere around 10 Soldiers for crimes in Iraq/Afghanistan? LoW, Geneva, escalation of force and the rules of engagement are taken very seriously in the military.

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I hope it is taken very seriously.

How about war crimes not be committed in the first place though? And how about absurd wars not be started too?

I have eased my stance on the US military in recent times because of my own experiences at the base and through interaction with people like you, but instances like this make me very angry.

You just cannot defend the killing of innocent people. And when you have criminals like Obama who lied to get elected and also have the media saying that someone like Manning is a liar and should be vilified. Well, that to me is a double standard. The small soldier suffers, whilst the power elite representative gets away scot free.

It is incredibly wrong.

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Like any organization we have our fair share of bad apples and unfortunately combat is a nasty business. When people go off the reservation in a combat zone the outcome is usually pretty horrific. As far as absurd wars....I just work here.

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Originally Posted by miles

The soldiers have not been punished for their actions. If Manning had not released the video it would have all been swept under the carpet and random killings would continue. It is obvious that there is little accountability for war crimes in the present day US military. If there was, then the soldiers would have been punished. However, this hasn't happened.

Manning broke an oath, but in doing so did an extremely noble and courageous thing. I salute the man and regard him as a modern American hero. A true patriot who tried to show how his nation was abusing its power. This is what patriots do. They don't make empty promises to a flag, they stand by their righteous and humanitarian convictions.

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The thing Miles is that the guy didn't release only footage of soldiers doing wrong things. If it would be only that, things would be fare less intricated (even if he did violate the military rules). THe guy just sent tons of gigs of material without regard on the content, he just sent it all, which is kind of dumb. You just can't send tons of hot data to guys you don't even know and without taking time to separate what is relevevant so the wrongdoers are punished but nobody else at risk. VanChilld has quite a fair point here I think.

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Originally Posted by Nameless

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Originally Posted by miles

The soldiers have not been punished for their actions. If Manning had not released the video it would have all been swept under the carpet and random killings would continue. It is obvious that there is little accountability for war crimes in the present day US military. If there was, then the soldiers would have been punished. However, this hasn't happened.

Manning broke an oath, but in doing so did an extremely noble and courageous thing. I salute the man and regard him as a modern American hero. A true patriot who tried to show how his nation was abusing its power. This is what patriots do. They don't make empty promises to a flag, they stand by their righteous and humanitarian convictions.

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The thing Miles is that the guy didn't release only footage of soldiers doing wrong things. If it would be only that, things would be fare less intricated (even if he did violate the military rules). THe guy just sent tons of gigs of material without regard on the content, he just sent it all, which is kind of dumb. You just can't send tons of hot data to guys you don't even know and without taking time to separate what is relevevant so the wrongdoers are punished but nobody else at risk. VanChilld has quite a fair point here I think.

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Which one?

And let's not be idiots, the Iraq war itself was a war crime.

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Originally Posted by miles

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Originally Posted by Nameless

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Originally Posted by miles

The soldiers have not been punished for their actions. If Manning had not released the video it would have all been swept under the carpet and random killings would continue. It is obvious that there is little accountability for war crimes in the present day US military. If there was, then the soldiers would have been punished. However, this hasn't happened.

Manning broke an oath, but in doing so did an extremely noble and courageous thing. I salute the man and regard him as a modern American hero. A true patriot who tried to show how his nation was abusing its power. This is what patriots do. They don't make empty promises to a flag, they stand by their righteous and humanitarian convictions.

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The thing Miles is that the guy didn't release only footage of soldiers doing wrong things. If it would be only that, things would be fare less intricated (even if he did violate the military rules). THe guy just sent tons of gigs of material without regard on the content, he just sent it all, which is kind of dumb. You just can't send tons of hot data to guys you don't even know and without taking time to separate what is relevevant so the wrongdoers are punished but nobody else at risk. VanChilld has quite a fair point here I think.

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Which one?

And let's not be idiots, the Iraq war itself was a war crime.

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The iraq war was just wrongly handled from beginning to end (including its reasons). As for the documents that Manning sent, I didn't skim the whole X gigs of data for reasons you can imagine but if I am correct, he did send, among othere things, names of military in charge of some places as well as some detailed equipment listing. The guy just sent everything he had under hand and you can't do that.

Bigger question is why he has not be tried for treason and executed yet?

I don't think miles has wrapped his head around what revealing state secrets to everyone could lead to.

Just sit back and think of Hiroshima and Nagasaki for a second.....now think of this, we (the big boys in the world: US, England, China, Russia, France, etc) don't have nuclear weapons that small anymore. Now imagine some little punk like Bradley Manning "accidentally" leaks something dangerous that a troll like Julian Assange thinks can further his aura/mystique/career and that "something dangerous" ends up setting off a war. Miles, you of all people should admit that war is easily started these days and providing this kind of fuel to the fire is not safe.