What has he done and who has he beaten to be known as the second best.. His undefeated record?
I ask because people keep saying that ward and bute must face each other for supremacy of the division but who says bute is that number two guy?
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What has he done and who has he beaten to be known as the second best.. His undefeated record?
I ask because people keep saying that ward and bute must face each other for supremacy of the division but who says bute is that number two guy?
He clearly looks like the man to beat.
Ward has just won the super six and beaten everybody else who would you have him fight if not Bute?
I'm not a big fan but there is no doubt he's the number 2 right now imo.
He beat down Glen Johnson far easier than Froch did, apart from his hiccup with Andrae, which he avenged specatcularly he has battered everybody. Watch some of his Ko's, of Andrade, Miranda etc. He totally dominated Sakio Bika too.
Cleary he's the man Ward must face and as much as I hate to admit it, seeing as I argued this with CFH for ages, I'd see Bute beating Kessler and Froch pretty handily right now.
Given that Ward has beaten Froch and Kessler, then its the only viable opponent left for him in terms of proving his supremacy (Andre Dirrell aint gona happen anytime soon). Plus Bute looks really good whenever he fights so people are high on him.
But I take your point on the number 2 thing. His number 2 position is purely theoretical and has no basis in fact. He should be number 4. If I made a list thats where I would put him. I would base rankings purely on results, facts and competition faced rather than conjecture. Whether you think he would beat Froch or Kessler should be irrelevant imo
The Ring rate Bute no.1 (Ward is now champ) - Boxing Ratings | RingTV
Bute is clearly not the 2nd best based on form/resume but is the best challenger without doubt.
Who else would be ranked second? The reasons are: his (1) undefeated record, (2) performances against common opponents with the other top guys in the division, and (3) out of default because there are no other real options. It doesn't hurt that he gets people out of there spectacularly either. There is NO doubt Ward is number one.
Cause ward would maul and potshot his ass to death. If andrade gave him problems, i can only imagine how ward would frustrate him. The thing about ward is most guys dont train on how to avoid the wrestling and stuff ward does. And if you prepare for one camp so what. Ward has been training on how to do it his whole career. Some may not like it , but while people complain about it, he's winning using it. While khan somewhere and golden boy are crying about a ref who tried to stop this type of crap. Ah well
Hang on the final was between froch and ward and warding being #1 that should make froch #2 and bute #3??
That's the whole point of the tournament that bute pussied out of, if he didn't pussy out he woulda been in it. If froch won then Andre would be second. Ibf belt doesn't make you second
No, this is not “the whole point of the tournament” since Bute, the no. 2 of the SM division at the time was left outside of the S6.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dropanuke
And Bute didn’t pussied out, he was just not invited.
Showtime Sports executive vice president and general manager Ken Hershman said:
" the tournament was very difficult to put together and the only way to get five promoters and six fighters on the same page was within the existing relationships I had. It wasn't that I didn't think [Bute and Bedard] were worthy or trustworthy. I just didn't have the depth of the relationship I had with the others."
http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/boxing/news/story?id=5769178
This having been said, I have no problem putting Bute behind Froch.
Correct me if I'm wrong but the point of Finito's post, as an avowed Bute-hater, was to ask why Bute wasn't ranked lower, not why he was ranked behind Ward. In terms of Ward, all we know for certain is that for whatever reason he doesn't want to face Bute right now. Andre Ward-Lucian Bute bout looks unlikely for time being - ESPNQuote:
Originally Posted by Mar
Ward stated: "So I don't have to go to Lucian Bute right now. We're going to sit back and I'm going to rest and we'll see what's next. I'm open for a Mikkel Kessler clash."
Ward further stated: "It don't work like that. This is a sport, but we also use our brains for business, and we'll sit down and make a solid business decision"
Can we all agree that he's open to a Kessler fight because he knows that is an easier match-up for him? What other legitimate reason can he have to prefer Kessler?
To be fair I think Ward is entitled to choose who he wants to fight at this point, he has easily the best resume at super middle. I don't think he is dodging Bute at all. As he has just taken part in the super six and become a Showtime regular maybe he sees the best commercial appeal for his next fight in staying with Showtime and the super six fighter roster for now. A rematch with the popular samr, back to.winning ways after an injury layoff is an easy fight to make, both sets of promoters used to dealing with each other, Showtime happy to broadcast, both fighters knowing their relative worth and value. It makes sense he would pursue that next.Quote:
Originally Posted by RantcatratCorrect me if I'm wrong but the point of Finito's post, as an avowed Bute-hater, was to ask why Bute wasn't ranked lower, not why he was ranked behind Ward. In terms of Ward, allQuote:
Originally Posted by Mar
we know for certain is that for whatever reason he doesn't want to face Bute right now. Andre Ward-Lucian Bute bout looks unlikely for time being - ESPN
Ward stated: "So I don't have to go to Lucian Bute right now. We're going to sit back and I'm going to rest and we'll see what's next. I'm open for a Mikkel Kessler clash."
Ward further stated: "It don't work like that. This is a sport, but we also use our brains for business, and we'll sit down and make a solid business decision"
Can we all agree that he's open to a Kessler fight because he knows that is an easier match-up for him? What other legitimate reason can he have to prefer Kessler?
He will fight Bute, but on his own terms I imagine, when he has the most leverage.
Either day its ridiculous to suggest he is dodging Bute. You don't sign up to and win the Super Six without being willing to risk it all and face the best.
Record not resume
dont start adobting stoopid american terms that sound shitter than the british version
alright the americans have introduced some good terminology like Awesome (but only when said in a kind of sarcastic way) but Resume sounds gay
by the way Bute hasnt done anything to deserve his status as the second best super middle in the world, the ring and everyone else need to base their judgement on fact rather than opinion
he looks very good but until he has beaten a top contender then he cant be rated that high
its like saying one football team is better than another coz they have beaten lots of championship teams and the other has had mixed success against prem teams, get me?
I likeQuote:
Originally Posted by erics44
I quite rubbed my eyes... I can't believe you said it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
I still think Kessler can be the man in this division. I rewatched the Kessler/Ward fight this evening and it was appalling. Ward is the dirtiest, nastiest and most typical Christian I have ever seen.
Kessler does far better in a rematch knowing what that skank is all about. As for Bute, I don't hold him in massive regard. He is far less dirty than S.O.B. though so I like him more.
Froch is clearly more limited, but he has the biggest heart. He just doesn't have any real tools.
It appears that is what I was insinuating and if that is the case, it was inadvertant. I meant to just pose the question why is Ward not fighting Bute now?Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboTo be fair I think Ward is entitled to choose who he wants to fight at this point, he has easily the best resume at super middle. I don't think he is dodging Bute at all. As he has just taken part in the super six and become a Showtime regular maybe he sees the best commercial appeal for his next fight in staying with Showtime and the super six fighter roster for now. A rematch with the popular samr, back to.winning ways after an injury layoff is an easy fight to make, both sets of promoters used to dealing with each other, Showtime happy to broadcast, both fighters knowing their relative worth and value. It makes sense he would pursue that next.Quote:
Originally Posted by RantcatratCorrect me if I'm wrong but the point of Finito's post, as an avowed Bute-hater, was to ask why Bute wasn't ranked lower, not why he was ranked behind Ward. In terms of Ward, allQuote:
Originally Posted by Mar
we know for certain is that for whatever reason he doesn't want to face Bute right now. Andre Ward-Lucian Bute bout looks unlikely for time being - ESPN
Ward stated: "So I don't have to go to Lucian Bute right now. We're going to sit back and I'm going to rest and we'll see what's next. I'm open for a Mikkel Kessler clash."
Ward further stated: "It don't work like that. This is a sport, but we also use our brains for business, and we'll sit down and make a solid business decision"
Can we all agree that he's open to a Kessler fight because he knows that is an easier match-up for him? What other legitimate reason can he have to prefer Kessler?
He will fight Bute, but on his own terms I imagine, when he has the most leverage.
Either day its ridiculous to suggest he is dodging Bute. You don't sign up to and win the Super Six without being willing to risk it all and face the best.
I can see if he faced Kessler and beat him that he may have gained leverage, but if Bute faces Froch now, the consensus number three in the division, it is negated. The likelihood is that Ward takes care of his mandatory in Anthony Dirrell, which won't gain him any leverage. Frankly, I don't believe there is any reason to not take Ward at his word. This is a business and when you weigh the risks/rewards, Kessler is less risk and as much reward as Bute.
I also submit that Kessler won't face Ward again for a while because he can make so much money in Denmark. Given his injuries and S6 performances, Kessler's best days are behind him. The old Kessler would have gone for glory and signed up to fight Bute as opposed to taking on Steiglitz, someone who Andrade beat. It's really a huge step back for Kessler, but a smart business decision because once he has the belt, he can keep it hostage in Denmark for a while. Kessler may have earned that right, don't get me wrong. There is a possibility Kessler unifies with the winner of Froch/Bute especially if it is Froch, but I sort of doubt it.
Moreover, Bute and Kessler in their respective hometowns are the number one and two money-makers in the division even if Ward is the number one fighter. If Bute beats Froch and/or Kessler, and Ward takes on Anthony Dirrell in his mandatory, Ward will have less leverage than he has now, right? Now, he is the MAN in the division based on his wins over Froch and Kessler. If Bute matches that, his number one ranking becomes a bit murkier. So, I don't see any reason he isn't fighting Bute other than it's a bigger risk than Kessler etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gandalf
I dont agree, Kessler is way past his best
I think he was beaten quite handily by Froch, yes it was a close fight and kess got the decision but Kessler only won any rounds on work rate, or the fact that froch stopped working, some rounds kes looked like he wasnt gonna get through the fight, froch looked stronger and a lot more accurate through-out
We can agree to disagree, I thought Kessler won that quite clearly. I do think Kessler is not quite the same, but I want to see him next April to make my mind up.Quote:
Originally Posted by erics44Quote:
Originally Posted by Gandalf
I dont agree, Kessler is way past his best
I think he was beaten quite handily by Froch, yes it was a close fight and kess got the decision but Kessler only won any rounds on work rate, or the fact that froch stopped working, some rounds kes looked like he wasnt gonna get through the fight, froch looked stronger and a lot more accurate through-out
Froch got hit with an awful lot and lost so many rounds. He did finish the hungrier though.
Thing is it won't show you much because Stieglitz isn't that great. Kessler will beat Stieglitz and look good doing it. With all the injuries, however, it's clear boxing has taken its toll on Kessler's body. Add to that his age, and it doesn't seem that Kessler is the fighter he once was. I like Kessler though so I'll try and withhold judgment until he faces Froch, Ward or Bute. I doubt that he will though. Remember after Calzaghe beat him, he faced three journeymen in Denmark. I believe that's what he'll do for a few fights after getting a title from Stieglitz; then have one more big fight, lose, and retire a rich man.Quote:
Originally Posted by GandalfWe can agree to disagree, I thought Kessler won that quite clearly. I do think Kessler is not quite the same, but I want to see him next April to make my mind up.Quote:
Originally Posted by erics44Quote:
Originally Posted by Gandalf
I dont agree, Kessler is way past his best
I think he was beaten quite handily by Froch, yes it was a close fight and kess got the decision but Kessler only won any rounds on work rate, or the fact that froch stopped working, some rounds kes looked like he wasnt gonna get through the fight, froch looked stronger and a lot more accurate through-out
Froch got hit with an awful lot and lost so many rounds. He did finish the hungrier though.
watch the first 5 rounds, kessler doesnt land a punchQuote:
Originally Posted by GandalfWe can agree to disagree, I thought Kessler won that quite clearly. I do think Kessler is not quite the same, but I want to see him next April to make my mind up.Quote:
Originally Posted by erics44Quote:
Originally Posted by Gandalf
I dont agree, Kessler is way past his best
I think he was beaten quite handily by Froch, yes it was a close fight and kess got the decision but Kessler only won any rounds on work rate, or the fact that froch stopped working, some rounds kes looked like he wasnt gonna get through the fight, froch looked stronger and a lot more accurate through-out
Froch got hit with an awful lot and lost so many rounds. He did finish the hungrier though.
No, that isn't true. I've just been watching it. Kessler is way up after 5. Froch doesn't work until down the stretch, same against Ward.Quote:
Originally Posted by erics44watch the first 5 rounds, kessler doesnt land a punchQuote:
Originally Posted by GandalfWe can agree to disagree, I thought Kessler won that quite clearly. I do think Kessler is not quite the same, but I want to see him next April to make my mind up.Quote:
Originally Posted by erics44Quote:
Originally Posted by Gandalf
I dont agree, Kessler is way past his best
I think he was beaten quite handily by Froch, yes it was a close fight and kess got the decision but Kessler only won any rounds on work rate, or the fact that froch stopped working, some rounds kes looked like he wasnt gonna get through the fight, froch looked stronger and a lot more accurate through-out
Froch got hit with an awful lot and lost so many rounds. He did finish the hungrier though.
Maybe, but that Ward fight was a travesty and not a fair fight.Quote:
Originally Posted by RantcatratThing is it won't show you much because Stieglitz isn't that great. Kessler will beat Stieglitz and look good doing it. With all the injuries, however, it's clear boxing has taken its toll on Kessler's body. Add to that his age, and it doesn't seem that Kessler is the fighter he once was. I like Kessler though so I'll try and withhold judgment until he faces Froch, Ward or Bute. I doubt that he will though. Remember after Calzaghe beat him, he faced three journeymen in Denmark. I believe that's what he'll do for a few fights after getting a title from Stieglitz; then have one more big fight, lose, and retire a rich man.Quote:
Originally Posted by GandalfWe can agree to disagree, I thought Kessler won that quite clearly. I do think Kessler is not quite the same, but I want to see him next April to make my mind up.Quote:
Originally Posted by erics44Quote:
Originally Posted by Gandalf
I dont agree, Kessler is way past his best
I think he was beaten quite handily by Froch, yes it was a close fight and kess got the decision but Kessler only won any rounds on work rate, or the fact that froch stopped working, some rounds kes looked like he wasnt gonna get through the fight, froch looked stronger and a lot more accurate through-out
Froch got hit with an awful lot and lost so many rounds. He did finish the hungrier though.
It was appalling and if I was Kessler I would be saying "why go over there and fight those god bothering weirdo's again as it is all a scam". And it was.
Kessler would do much better and I am certain of that and Ward really is a lot of hot air.
Calzaghe would jump rings around the Orc-esque fool.
I'm aware that Bute is one of the least favorite guys on this forum as many people dislike him (erics, finito, mar, terrorsid, formerly bilbo to name a few) because they rightly or wrongly believe he is overrated because he hasn't faced Froch, Kessler, or Ward. The only way we can be sure if he is the goods is after he faces Froch or Kessler given that Ward won't fight him now. Do even the naysayers agree that is a fair assessement? The only other thing I would bring up is Ward has leapfrogged up into top 5 p4p essentially because he beat Froch so if Bute can do that too, can we agree that we should place him in the same regard?
Ward is not top 5 in the world, but Bute does need to fight some more of those opponents. Johnson is soooooooooo old. He should never have been in the Super 6.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rantcatrat
I think your anti-Christian bias is affecting your assessment of Ward. Perhaps if he goes atheist, you'll be able to more accurately evaluate him. There's just no way in hell Kessler will ever be "the man" in the 168-pound division unless Ward moves up or retires. He has neither the speed nor the versatility to threaten him.
Are you another Yank with an unscientific mindview? Read some papers which are supported by logic and avoid that Bible nonsense. And it is, it has nothing to support it.Quote:
Originally Posted by LobowolfXXX
I enjoy boxing, but when fighters talk shit I do laugh at them.
Perhaps your worldview has impaired your ability to understand my argument. I did not say or suggest that lack of belief in Christianity is incorrect; merely that it may be impeding your objectivity. FWIW, I am not a theist (though I know many extremely intelligent and logic-minded people who are).Quote:
Originally Posted by GandalfAre you another Yank with an unscientific mindview? Read some papers which are supported by logic and avoid that Bible nonsense. And it is, it has nothing to support it.Quote:
Originally Posted by LobowolfXXX
I enjoy boxing, but when fighters talk shit I do laugh at them.
But that's really a side issue. You've pointed out bias (or at least perceived bias, or the possibility of bias) in others; are you really so sure that absolutely no bias might be affecting your own beliefs? I'm rather inclined to think that nobody is entirely free of bias (though people have it in varying degrees).
Only a very small percentage think Carl Froch won, infact on this forum i've only seen you and CFH debate it. Mostly everyone else think's Mikkel Kessler won a clear decision 7-5 7-4-1 or 8-4 in that region, i personally had it 7-5.Quote:
Originally Posted by erics44watch the first 5 rounds, kessler doesnt land a punchQuote:
Originally Posted by GandalfWe can agree to disagree, I thought Kessler won that quite clearly. I do think Kessler is not quite the same, but I want to see him next April to make my mind up.Quote:
Originally Posted by erics44Quote:
Originally Posted by Gandalf
I dont agree, Kessler is way past his best
I think he was beaten quite handily by Froch, yes it was a close fight and kess got the decision but Kessler only won any rounds on work rate, or the fact that froch stopped working, some rounds kes looked like he wasnt gonna get through the fight, froch looked stronger and a lot more accurate through-out
Froch got hit with an awful lot and lost so many rounds. He did finish the hungrier though.
As regard's to Bute, being second best Smw what I have seen of
him he doe's ever thing well,just get's the job of winning done.?
But when or if he doe's face Ward,it could be a very interesting
fight,I don't think Ward is superman,if I was a betting man may
be just may be a few bob on Bute to win.?;D
i cant see it, i dont see kes landing a punch in the first 5, the 4th is frochs best round of the fight, kes looks in troubleQuote:
Originally Posted by Gandalf
The first 2 are close but it would be harsh not to give them to froch
Give me a round and a time when kes lands in the first 5
Who cares. This is a perfect opertunity to have a unification fight so Bute can be brought down to earth.
Saying that, when have the top two fighters of a devision ever rushed to fight each other.