Shane Mosley v's Saul Alvarez confirmed for 5th May....crappy at best!!!
On the under card of Cotto v Mayweather
Job biscuit (Sad)!!!!
eh eh!!
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Shane Mosley v's Saul Alvarez confirmed for 5th May....crappy at best!!!
On the under card of Cotto v Mayweather
Job biscuit (Sad)!!!!
eh eh!!
It's actually a pretty decent matchup imo.
It will be interesting to see how Alvarez fares against Shane, certainly it's our best chance so far to gauge how good he is compared to the world elite.
We saw that Floyd and Manny handled Shane with ease so how Alvarez gets on will allow us to see how developed a fighter he is.
Certainly it's a massive step up for Alvarez following fights with the likes of Matthew Hatton, Ryan Rhodes and Alfonso Gomez.
Mosley is a future hall of famer and a big step up in competition.
At this stage of his career I don't expect him to have enough to beat Alvarez but it will be interesting early. Alvarez is very easy to hit, and Shane could be dangerous in those early rounds.
I expect Saul to walk through his shots like a tank however and grind Shane down for a decision win.
But it's no joke fight. Canelo is still only a kid and a name like Shane on his resume will be a decent win, even if he is old and past his best.
I mostly agree with this except that I think you're underrating the possibility that Shane is just 100% shot at this point and actually not a step up. But at this point I still doubt that Shane has deteriorated to the point that he's as bad as Alphonso Gomez or a latter-day Kermit Cintron yet. Not beyond the realm of possibility though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo
And these are big names for an undercard in any case. Hopefully they're not letting Canelo pull another bitch move and this fight is actually at the MGM Grand with the rest of the card.
(This is also adds to the unfortunate likelihood that Floyd fights Canelo next instead of Martinez or Pacquiao.)
Yeah he may well be shot. But people said that about Eric Morales and have been saying it about Bernard Hopkins for years too. Also Tarver was supposed to be nothing after losing to Hopkins.
They have all come back to put on some great performances.
Nobody yet knows how Shane will perform but he's given enough service to the sport down the years to merit the shot.
I think he's the ideal opponent for Canelo at this stage of his career.
It's a decent fight for both, Shane to show he's not shot, while earning one more decent payday just in case.
Alvarez to get a big name on his record and good exposure on the undercard of a massive fight.
I think Alvarez just walks through him, safe opening few rounds, possibly a late stoppage.
Get ready for lots of Shane hugging and glove touching!
This is a good undercard fight. Shane needs to lose all respect for the kid once the bell goes. This is a good fight because it has the potential to answer 2 questions about the fighters and where they are in their respective careers. I'm interested.
I will be supporting the 40 year old, beat that little puppy.
So, they couldn't even get a live body, huh? This is a sad fight. Shane is 100% shot. Don't kid yourselves. It's Cintron all over again. They're coddling Canelo. How did Shane deserve this fight after his poor showing against Pacquiao? Do you remember booing that fight? That was at 147 and now Shane is older. Even if Shane isn't shot, which he is, he isn't a top ten junior middleweight like Alvarez and like Delvin.
Booo.
Well technically this fight being at 154 will be more helpful for Shane than struggling to make 147.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rantcatrat
Plus losing two wide UD's to unquestionably the two best fighters on the planet doesn't mean he's going to lose to everyone else. Few fighters have given more to boxing in terms of heart and commitment than Shane Mosley down the years.
I can't believe the hostility he gets just because he was no longer good enough to hang with the p4p number 1 & 2 fighters.
It's an interesting matchup.
Shane had a pretty bad injury going into the Pacquiao fight as he was recovering from a torn ACL which caused him to compensate on the other leg which caused a worse blister to pop which he could barely stand on, which is why he was contimplating stopping the fight with Richardson. It really is a wonder he was able to stand all 12 rounds let alone use his legs. After that he hinted at retiring on Lopez Tonight.
So if Shane comes into this fight at 100 percent he should do better than people think he will but at this point if he hasn't blasted out Alvarez early it will be a long night decision win for Canelo.
With ya on that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
Think about it.
Canelo doesn't have the best defense, and he isn't the quickest, so Shane's going to see opportunities to throw punches, and he's going to take them. Plus Canelo is going to make things a very good scrap.
We might see another Morales vs. Maidana type fight.
+1 exactly.Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboWell technically this fight being at 154 will be more helpful for Shane than struggling to make 147.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rantcatrat
Plus losing two wide UD's to unquestionably the two best fighters on the planet doesn't mean he's going to lose to everyone else. Few fighters have given more to boxing in terms of heart and commitment than Shane Mosley down the years.
I can't believe the hostility he gets just because he was no longer good enough to hang with the p4p number 1 & 2 fighters.
It's an interesting matchup.
This fight asks questions of both fighters and that makes it an interesting one.
Shane needs to start juicing again so he can look like the shane that fought oscar.
Nah, good luck to shane but his touch gloves and hugging style pissed me off and i hope canelo knocks him out in the 10th rd.
Rip vernon forrest.
Us 40 year old must tick together, little youngsters are starting to take over the sport and leaving us behind.Quote:
Originally Posted by NuthaPugWith ya on that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
If Cotto's brother was able to rock Canelo imagine what Mosley could do if he lands a good shot.
No one is doubting Shane's career, but he is shot, man. Just watch his last three performances. I understand losing to Floyd and Manny doesn't mean he will lose to everyone else, but that also doesn't mean he isn't shot. More importantly, there were MUCH better opponents at 154. MUCH. This will be the second shot fighter that Canelo has faced in a row.Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboWell technically this fight being at 154 will be more helpful for Shane than struggling to make 147.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rantcatrat
Plus losing two wide UD's to unquestionably the two best fighters on the planet doesn't mean he's going to lose to everyone else. Few fighters have given more to boxing in terms of heart and commitment than Shane Mosley down the years.
I can't believe the hostility he gets just because he was no longer good enough to hang with the p4p number 1 & 2 fighters.
It's an interesting matchup.
Michael Woods, the boxing writer for the New York Post, said this about the Shane Mosley versus Canelo Alvarez fight: "Ideally, the bulk of our interest in a fight shouldn't stem from curiousity if boxer is shot or not." It's 100% on point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rantcatrat
I don't know. Shane did no worse against Floyd than J M Marquez did, and he did no worse against Manny than Cotto did.
Both of those guys are still considered top fighters, in fact Floyd is fighting Cotto next and many think Marquez beat Pacquiao last time out.
Canelo wasn't able to stop Matthew Hatton I think Mosley is an ideal opponent for him at this stage.
Remember the goal is to give Canelo a decent test, but for him to not lose. They aren't about to pair him with anyone they think will beat him just yet. As Shane was considered an elite fighter only a couple of years ago and on his best day would probably stomp all over the current version of Canelo I think this fight has plenty of interest.
I'm much more looking forward to this fight for Alvarez than I was his fights against Hatton, Rhodes, Gomez and Cintron and I expect most other people are too.
It's a step up for him and as an undercard fight pretty intriguing.
^^ Agreed. If Mosley keeps going this is the only kind of matchup you could expect, I kind of like it. The idea that this is coddling Alvarez is quite laughable given who he has fought thus far, I think if Mosley is able to muster up any kind of a last ditch effort this will be a hell of a fight. Alvarez would've been roadkill for Shane Mosley in the day and he may well not have the composure to put Shane into a shell like Floyd and Manny were able to do. Mosley can still be very dangerous in spurts if you want to fight with him I reckon.
I heard a very funny line somewhere about this card. It went something like Floyd must have been required to do community service for senior citizens as part of his plea deal for beating his baby's momma and that is why Shane and Winky are on the card. ;DQuote:
Originally Posted by BilboQuote:
Originally Posted by Rantcatrat
I don't know. Shane did no worse against Floyd than J M Marquez did, and he did no worse against Manny than Cotto did.
Both of those guys are still considered top fighters, in fact Floyd is fighting Cotto next and many think Marquez beat Pacquiao last time out.
Canelo wasn't able to stop Matthew Hatton I think Mosley is an ideal opponent for him at this stage.
Remember the goal is to give Canelo a decent test, but for him to not lose. They aren't about to pair him with anyone they think will beat him just yet. As Shane was considered an elite fighter only a couple of years ago and on his best day would probably stomp all over the current version of Canelo I think this fight has plenty of interest.
I'm much more looking forward to this fight for Alvarez than I was his fights against Hatton, Rhodes, Gomez and Cintron and I expect most other people are too.
It's a step up for him and as an undercard fight pretty intriguing.
Anyway, you may be correct, perhaps I've been too harsh on this fight. Given Canelo's previous opposition, this is more of the same, but not any worse. It turned out Cintron was shot when he faced Canelo and I see the same thing happening here. Also, after Mosley's last two performances, I didn't want to see him on a major card again because I thought he stunk out the joint. Additionally, I would view a win over Delvin Rodriguez as a better win than one over this version of Shane and also better for Canelo's development, and he's not the only choice out there. I understand why they wouldn't want to put him in with James Kirkland. Fine. I wouldn't even hold it against Canelo. He's 21. I just think there are better choices out there from every perspective.
There's a chance that Shane is just more effective at 154 than he was at 147 at his age and he'll bring some pain to Canelo. I'll be rooting for Shane to win too.
Do you not remember Oscar trashing Shane before the Pacquiao fight? He was calling him shot and over the hill etc. Now Oscar goes and puts him in with his cash cow. It's just a reminder that promoters are promoters. One's no different from the rest.
It's totally different though. In the former fight Shane was fighting the then best p4p fighter in the entire world. Now he's facing a 21 year old belt holder whose only notable win is against Kermit Cintron and it's an undercard fight.Quote:
Originally Posted by RantcatratI heard a very funny line somewhere about this card. It went something like Floyd must have been required to do community service for senior citizens as part of his plea deal for beating his baby's momma and that is why Shane and Winky are on the card. ;DQuote:
Originally Posted by BilboQuote:
Originally Posted by Rantcatrat
I don't know. Shane did no worse against Floyd than J M Marquez did, and he did no worse against Manny than Cotto did.
Both of those guys are still considered top fighters, in fact Floyd is fighting Cotto next and many think Marquez beat Pacquiao last time out.
Canelo wasn't able to stop Matthew Hatton I think Mosley is an ideal opponent for him at this stage.
Remember the goal is to give Canelo a decent test, but for him to not lose. They aren't about to pair him with anyone they think will beat him just yet. As Shane was considered an elite fighter only a couple of years ago and on his best day would probably stomp all over the current version of Canelo I think this fight has plenty of interest.
I'm much more looking forward to this fight for Alvarez than I was his fights against Hatton, Rhodes, Gomez and Cintron and I expect most other people are too.
It's a step up for him and as an undercard fight pretty intriguing.
Anyway, you may be correct, perhaps I've been too harsh on this fight. Given Canelo's previous opposition, this is more of the same, but not any worse. It turned out Cintron was shot when he faced Canelo and I see the same thing happening here. Also, after Mosley's last two performances, I didn't want to see him on a major card again because I thought he stunk out the joint. Additionally, I would view a win over Delvin Rodriguez as a better win than one over this version of Shane and also better for Canelo's development, and he's not the only choice out there. I understand why they wouldn't want to put him in with James Kirkland. Fine. I wouldn't even hold it against Canelo. He's 21. I just think there are better choices out there from every perspective.
There's a chance that Shane is just more effective at 154 than he was at 147 at his age and he'll bring some pain to Canelo. I'll be rooting for Shane to win too.
Do you not remember Oscar trashing Shane before the Pacquiao fight? He was calling him shot and over the hill etc. Now Oscar goes and puts him in with his cash cow. It's just a reminder that promoters are promoters. One's no different from the rest.
If they were hyping this as a main event fight on a HBO card then sure, but as a chief support it's pretty intriguing.
Also I highly doubt the casual fan would rather see Canelo fight Delvin Rodriguez. I also think it's a matter of conjecture as to whether that is a tougher fight.
Shane was once world elite, only a couple fights ago he was fighting at the very top level, now he's a decent gatekeeper test.
Remember this is a fight Canelo is supposed to win, nobody is saying this is a 50/50 fight and it's not being hyped as such. For me the main event is a bigger farce seeing how comprehensively Manny dismantled Cotto not that long ago.
Still it's a card I will definitely be watching.
What bothers me is that we let the idea of what we think deems one as "shot" dictate whether or not they should be in a fight.
Shot isn't something that should be completely judging a fight. A shot 43 year old Foreman would have knocked out any version of Tyson, and I firmly believe that.
The Old Joe Louis who is often discredited as an opponent of Rocky Marciano's was still good enough to be cleaning house with every top heavyweight except Ezzard Charles.
As a matter of fact, Holyfield is still a good fighter at nearly fifty. I was one of the few people that predicted a Holyfield win when he fought Valuev in 2008. You can ask any sensible person who saw the fight, it is generally accepted that Holyfield was robbed.
Maybe we need to think more so along the lines of the old motto, "Styles make fights."
I think Mosley is a shot fighter but it's still a step up for Canelo and I would like to see how he performs.
Undercards don't sell ppvs. That's clear. The casual fan knows who Shane is and will like the fact he is on the card. We're not casual fans though. Listen, I hope I'm wrong, I sincerely do. I just see Shane going in survival mode once he feels a bit of Canelo's power and then putting on a snoozer for 12 rounds.
Shane also has a great record against Mexican fighters. Something like 36-1-1. Maybe styles do make fights and Shane would have problems with a fast southpaw in Manny and a fast boxer in PBF, but not have problems with Canelo.
My point regarding Oscar was that he is just a pure promoter and I don't buy any of his propoganda any more than I do other promoters. He put down Shane because Shane left GB to secure a Pacquiao fight. He disparaged Shane, not as a bad opponent for Manny, but as a shot, old fighter. Now he's putting him in against someone he promoters, and there's no problem. It's hypocritical was my point.
This appears to be the consensus, Bilbo's point, and I see it. Fair play. I would prefer to have seen him in against a top ten competitor (Mosley's not even ranked at junior middleweight or welterweight any longer), but I understand why they're doing the fight.Quote:
Originally Posted by Manos de Piedra
He's still 21 and I don't see a need for him to be rushed into real dangerous fights, even though he's world champion he has alot of work to do.Quote:
Originally Posted by RantcatratThis appears to be the consensus, Bilbo's point, and I see it. Fair play. I would prefer to have seen him in against a top ten competitor (Mosley's not even ranked at junior middleweight or welterweight any longer), but I understand why they're doing the fight.Quote:
Originally Posted by Manos de Piedra
Shane could easily use his experience and go into spoiler mode to survive.
Be good experience; round building while being frustrated for the puppy whipper snapper.
Go Shane,surprise us!
Whoops I nearly forgot this is Otleys thread.
Giggety Giggety.
definitely agree with that.Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboQuote:
Originally Posted by Rantcatrat
I don't know. Shane did no worse against Floyd than J M Marquez did, and he did no worse against Manny than Cotto did.
Both of those guys are still considered top fighters, in fact Floyd is fighting Cotto next and many think Marquez beat Pacquiao last time out.
Canelo wasn't able to stop Matthew Hatton I think Mosley is an ideal opponent for him at this stage.
Remember the goal is to give Canelo a decent test, but for him to not lose. They aren't about to pair him with anyone they think will beat him just yet. As Shane was considered an elite fighter only a couple of years ago and on his best day would probably stomp all over the current version of Canelo I think this fight has plenty of interest.
I'm much more looking forward to this fight for Alvarez than I was his fights against Hatton, Rhodes, Gomez and Cintron and I expect most other people are too.
It's a step up for him and as an undercard fight pretty intriguing.
He'll still #10 in the Ring's WW rankings, not that that's worth much, given who might fill out the top 20 (and given that this fight will be at 154).Quote:
Originally Posted by Rantcatrat
Exactly! Even if we are to assume Mosley is 100% shot and won't surprise anyone; he's still crafty and has never been stopped, and has beaten as many great fighters as Alvarez has live bodies. Had Mosley not looked quite so pedestrian in his last couple of fights people would probably be wondering whether Alvarez is ready for the step up. To say that this is a dissapointing move from Alvarez is really quite bizzare imo, this is how the sport works.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andre
This ^^ Pacquiao vs Mosely was the last time i was waking up at 4 in the morning for a mosely fight.Quote:
Originally Posted by RantcatratAlso, after Mosley's last two performances, I didn't want to see him on a major card again because I thought he stunk out the joint. .Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rantcatrat
I will stay up for this mainly for Cotto but might as well see how Shane does against the young pretender.Quote:
Originally Posted by bestjabwinsThis ^^ Pacquiao vs Mosely was the last time i was waking up at 4 in the morning for a Mosley fight.Quote:
Originally Posted by RantcatratAlso, after Mosley's last two performances, I didn't want to see him on a major card again because I thought he stunk out the joint. .Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rantcatrat
I take it that this is the main undercard fight to be shown before the big one?Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterQuote:
Originally Posted by bestjabwinsThis ^^ Pacquiao vs Mosely was the last time i was waking up at 4 in the morning for a Mosley fight.Quote:
Originally Posted by RantcatratAlso, after Mosley's last two performances, I didn't want to see him on a major card again because I thought he stunk out the joint. .Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rantcatrat
I take it that it will be the big undercard fight? I haven't read up on who else is fighting.
I will stay up for this mainly for Cotto but might as well see how Shane does against the young pretender.
Yes Cotto v Floyd is the main eventQuote:
Originally Posted by bestjabwinsI take it that this is the main undercard fight to be shown before the big one?Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterQuote:
Originally Posted by bestjabwinsThis ^^ Pacquiao vs Mosely was the last time i was waking up at 4 in the morning for a Mosley fight.Quote:
Originally Posted by RantcatratAlso, after Mosley's last two performances, I didn't want to see him on a major card again because I thought he stunk out the joint. .Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rantcatrat
I take it that it will be the big undercard fight? I haven't read up on who else is fighting.
I will stay up for this mainly for Cotto but might as well see how Shane does against the young pretender.
I don't see how it's hypocritical. Someone can easily be said to be a soft choice of opponent against the then world's number 1 p4p fighter on a HBO PPV but then not a soft choice for an emerging 21 year talent who Matthew Hatton comfortably went 12 rounds with last year.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rantcatrat
Look, I think Cotto is a soft choice as a PPV main event fight for Floyd. The result is virtually guaranteed imo. I think Cotto is past his best too.
But that doesn't mean if Floyd beats him handily as expected that I'd denigrate him as an opponent for Saul Alvarez. On the contrary I'd see that as a very dangerous fight.
You're putting all your emphasis on Shane no longer being world class elite level and ignoring the fact that Alvarez hasn't demonstrated he is at that level himself yet anyway.
It's a step up fight in his developing career. They are bringing him along. As such this makes for a great matchup, in my opinion the outcome is a lot more in doubt than the main event.
Regardless of Shane's opponent on a particular night, if Shane is shot--he's shot. "Shot" in Shane's case means he can't pull the trigger like he used to be able to. Being that I believe that is the case, it won't matter who is he in the ring with to an extent. Cintron in his prime would have been a great test for Alvarez. It turned out to be a complete mismatch because Cintron is shot. This could very well turn out to be a replay of the Cintron fight.Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboI don't see how it's hypocritical. Someone can easily be said to be a soft choice of opponent against the then world's number 1 p4p fighter on a HBO PPV but then not a soft choice for an emerging 21 year talent who Matthew Hatton comfortably went 12 rounds with last year.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rantcatrat
Look, I think Cotto is a soft choice as a PPV main event fight for Floyd. The result is virtually guaranteed imo. I think Cotto is past his best too.
But that doesn't mean if Floyd beats him handily as expected that I'd denigrate him as an opponent for Saul Alvarez. On the contrary I'd see that as a very dangerous fight.
You're putting all your emphasis on Shane no longer being world class elite level and ignoring the fact that Alvarez hasn't demonstrated he is at that level himself yet anyway.
It's a step up fight in his developing career. They are bringing him along. As such this makes for a great matchup, in my opinion the outcome is a lot more in doubt than the main event.
The outcome is only in doubt, to any extent, because we don't know exactly how shot Shane is after considering that his last two losses were against the top two p4p best in the sport. Once again, ideally, the interest in this fight should not derive from whether Shane is shot or not.
Humor me for a moment and assume I'm correct (I very well might not be, of course, maybe Shane has more left in the tank against Alvarez at 154 than he did against Manny or Floyd, as was your point), what kind of accomplishment is it for Alvarez to beat Shane in that state? Not much, if any at all, is the answer.
It would be a bigger accomplishment, once again assuming Shane is shot, for Alvarez to beat Delvin Rodriguez, an accomplished pro, yet flawed, because Rodriguez is a live body.
Taking into consideration my Shane assumption, do you agree with the two previous statements?
The difference between Cotto and the current Shane (if Shane is shot) is that Cotto is not shot. I estimate Cotto probably has about 90% of what he used to have pre-Margarito #1 and the Pacquiao shellacking. Not enough to be victorious against Pretty Boy, but enough to be a very tough outing for Canelo, at least from what we've seen in Cotto's last few fights. Canelo choosing to fight Cotto would be a huge step up in class. It may in fact be that Canelo isn't ready for that type of jump. Guess what? I wouldn't blame him. He's only 21. He has time. However, if Shane is shot, this fight will be a one-sided beat down. It won't add to Canelo's development. Sadly, it'll just add to Shane's dementia. Have you heard Shane speak recently?Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboI don't see how it's hypocritical. Someone can easily be said to be a soft choice of opponent against the then world's number 1 p4p fighter on a HBO PPV but then not a soft choice for an emerging 21 year talent who Matthew Hatton comfortably went 12 rounds with last year.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rantcatrat
Look, I think Cotto is a soft choice as a PPV main event fight for Floyd. The result is virtually guaranteed imo. I think Cotto is past his best too.
But that doesn't mean if Floyd beats him handily as expected that I'd denigrate him as an opponent for Saul Alvarez. On the contrary I'd see that as a very dangerous fight.
You're putting all your emphasis on Shane no longer being world class elite level and ignoring the fact that Alvarez hasn't demonstrated he is at that level himself yet anyway.
It's a step up fight in his developing career. They are bringing him along. As such this makes for a great matchup, in my opinion the outcome is a lot more in doubt than the main event.
The same goes for Cotto as it does for Delvin Rodriguez. Floyd would eat Delvin up easily. It doesn't mean at all that he would be a poor choice of opponent for Canelo. Quite the contrary, he would be a great choice, even though Canelo would be favored. In sum, Delvin, like Cotto, unlike how I view Shane, is not shot. Shane is not a step up from Cintron if Shane is shot. It's not that he is less than he once was, but still formidable, if he can't pull the trigger, he can only survive. Delvin Rodriguez is a step up even Wolak would be a step up. Canelo would be favored in both fights.
I don't understand the emphasis on being shot and your definition of it. Why was Cotto not shot after fighting Manny, or Marquez not shot after fighting Floyd? What did they do differently in their fights against the world's best that Floyd did not?Quote:
Originally Posted by RantcatratThe difference between Cotto and the current Shane (if Shane is shot) is that Cotto is not shot. I estimate Cotto probably has about 90% of what he used to have pre-Margarito #1 and the Pacquiao shellacking. Not enough to be victorious against Pretty Boy, but enough to be a very tough outing for Canelo, at least from what we've seen in Cotto's last few fights. Canelo choosing to fight Cotto would be a huge step up in class. It may in fact be that Canelo isn't ready for that type of jump. Guess what? I wouldn't blame him. He's only 21. He has time. However, if Shane is shot, this fight will be a one-sided beat down. It won't add to Canelo's development. Sadly, it'll just add to Shane's dementia. Have you heard Shane speak recently?Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboI don't see how it's hypocritical. Someone can easily be said to be a soft choice of opponent against the then world's number 1 p4p fighter on a HBO PPV but then not a soft choice for an emerging 21 year talent who Matthew Hatton comfortably went 12 rounds with last year.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rantcatrat
Look, I think Cotto is a soft choice as a PPV main event fight for Floyd. The result is virtually guaranteed imo. I think Cotto is past his best too.
But that doesn't mean if Floyd beats him handily as expected that I'd denigrate him as an opponent for Saul Alvarez. On the contrary I'd see that as a very dangerous fight.
You're putting all your emphasis on Shane no longer being world class elite level and ignoring the fact that Alvarez hasn't demonstrated he is at that level himself yet anyway.
It's a step up fight in his developing career. They are bringing him along. As such this makes for a great matchup, in my opinion the outcome is a lot more in doubt than the main event.
The same goes for Cotto as it does for Delvin Rodriguez. Floyd would eat Delvin up easily. It doesn't mean at all that he would be a poor choice of opponent for Canelo. Quite the contrary, he would be a great choice, even though Canelo would be favored. In sum, Delvin, like Cotto, unlike how I view Shane, is not shot. Shane is not a step up from Cintron if Shane is shot. It's not that he is less than he once was, but still formidable, if he can't pull the trigger, he can only survive. Delvin Rodriguez is a step up even Wolak would be a step up. Canelo would be favored in both fights.
They all got completely dominated as I see it.
Shane didn't have the speed and stamina to cope with Manny or Floyd but that doesn't mean he wont have enough to trouble lesser fighters.
It's like saying Tomasz Adamek is shot because he was completely dominated against Vitali in a totally one sided fight.
So many fighters in recent years have been written off as shot. Morales, Marquez, Hopkins. Given the right opponents they have all gone on to do pretty well.
Shane isn't expected to win, and I'd be surprised if he did. But I'd much rather watch Canelo fight him than Delvin Rodriguez. I couldn't give a shit about a fight like that.
I'll be rooting for Sugar Shane. Given how easily Alfonso Gomez was outboxing him until he felt his power I don't think Shane has no chance. I'd still pick Shane to beat Gomez, Hatton, Rhodes, Baldomir and probably Cintron too. The extra weight as this stage might help him a bit with his legs.
I think his biggest problem will be that he won't have the power to hurt Canelo, just like in his prime he had no power to hurt Winky at that weight either.
But I think he might be able to land enough to make it a good fight.
And I always love to see an ageing champion go out by taking on the next generation. It's how boxing should be imo.
I'm clearly doing a bad job explaining my point about Shane being shot. I apologize. It doesn't have to do with his age (Hopkins, Morales, Marquez), although there probably is a positive correllation.Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboI don't understand the emphasis on being shot and your definition of it. Why was Cotto not shot after fighting Manny, or Marquez not shot after fighting Floyd? What did they do differently in their fights against the world's best that Floyd did not?Quote:
Originally Posted by RantcatratThe difference between Cotto and the current Shane (if Shane is shot) is that Cotto is not shot. I estimate Cotto probably has about 90% of what he used to have pre-Margarito #1 and the Pacquiao shellacking. Not enough to be victorious against Pretty Boy, but enough to be a very tough outing for Canelo, at least from what we've seen in Cotto's last few fights. Canelo choosing to fight Cotto would be a huge step up in class. It may in fact be that Canelo isn't ready for that type of jump. Guess what? I wouldn't blame him. He's only 21. He has time. However, if Shane is shot, this fight will be a one-sided beat down. It won't add to Canelo's development. Sadly, it'll just add to Shane's dementia. Have you heard Shane speak recently?Quote:
Originally Posted by BilboI don't see how it's hypocritical. Someone can easily be said to be a soft choice of opponent against the then world's number 1 p4p fighter on a HBO PPV but then not a soft choice for an emerging 21 year talent who Matthew Hatton comfortably went 12 rounds with last year.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rantcatrat
Look, I think Cotto is a soft choice as a PPV main event fight for Floyd. The result is virtually guaranteed imo. I think Cotto is past his best too.
But that doesn't mean if Floyd beats him handily as expected that I'd denigrate him as an opponent for Saul Alvarez. On the contrary I'd see that as a very dangerous fight.
You're putting all your emphasis on Shane no longer being world class elite level and ignoring the fact that Alvarez hasn't demonstrated he is at that level himself yet anyway.
It's a step up fight in his developing career. They are bringing him along. As such this makes for a great matchup, in my opinion the outcome is a lot more in doubt than the main event.
The same goes for Cotto as it does for Delvin Rodriguez. Floyd would eat Delvin up easily. It doesn't mean at all that he would be a poor choice of opponent for Canelo. Quite the contrary, he would be a great choice, even though Canelo would be favored. In sum, Delvin, like Cotto, unlike how I view Shane, is not shot. Shane is not a step up from Cintron if Shane is shot. It's not that he is less than he once was, but still formidable, if he can't pull the trigger, he can only survive. Delvin Rodriguez is a step up even Wolak would be a step up. Canelo would be favored in both fights.
They all got completely dominated as I see it.
Shane didn't have the speed and stamina to cope with Manny or Floyd but that doesn't mean he wont have enough to trouble lesser fighters.
It's like saying Tomasz Adamek is shot because he was completely dominated against Vitali in a totally one sided fight.
So many fighters in recent years have been written off as shot. Morales, Marquez, Hopkins. Given the right opponents they have all gone on to do pretty well.
Shane isn't expected to win, and I'd be surprised if he did. But I'd much rather watch Canelo fight him than Delvin Rodriguez. I couldn't give a shit about a fight like that.
I'll be rooting for Sugar Shane. Given how easily Alfonso Gomez was outboxing him until he felt his power I don't think Shane has no chance. I'd still pick Shane to beat Gomez, Hatton, Rhodes, Baldomir and probably Cintron too. The extra weight as this stage might help him a bit with his legs.
I think his biggest problem will be that he won't have the power to hurt Canelo, just like in his prime he had no power to hurt Winky at that weight either.
But I think he might be able to land enough to make it a good fight.
And I always love to see an ageing champion go out by taking on the next generation. It's how boxing should be imo.
I can't explain why Cotto isn't as shot as Shane after losing to Manny and Margarito. It just happens with fighters. One sure-shot sign is when a fighter can't pull the trigger anymore. They can see the openings, but they can't execute. It looked like it happened to James Toney in his last fight against Lebedev (probably much before that). Cintron looked shot against Alvarez and he did against Molina. Jones is done although I'm not quite sure I would label him completely shot. His reflexes and hand speed seem to have just decreased a ton.
If Shane is shot, this is going to be a one-sided beat down, and he won't be able to put up half the fight a competitive not-shot fighter would. Shane couldn't pull the trigger against Pacquiao and he couldn't pull the trigger against Mayweather, other than one punch. Rewatch those fights if you doubt that. Power isn't his issue with Canelo. Canelo was wobbled by Jose Cotto. The issue will be, he can't pull the trigger.
I admit that there is the possibility he couldn't pull the trigger against Pacquiao and Floyd because, well, they are Pacquiao and Floyd, and/or that the higher weight may help hhim againt Alvarez. I hope that is the case. But, with a fighter like Delvin Rodriguez (I only use him as an example because he was rumored to be in contention for the fight), he still has the ability to capitalize on mistakes.
If Mosley isn't shot, he beats Alvarez. Straight up. The issue here is whether he is shot, not if he is old, but whether he is shot. If that is the case, it's a dangerous fight for Shane. Once again, ideally, whether Shane is shot shouldn't be what this fight depends on to be a success.
Do me a favor and look up for my post with the questions in it and answer them?