-
How much clinching is excessive? What is the distinction with inside fighting?
When should initiating clinching/holding warrant a point deduction? What is the distinction between clinching and inside fighting? Should it ever result in a disqualification?
A point was deducted from Andre Berto in his fight with Luis Collazo for clinching twenty times. Andre Dirrell had a point deducted for clinching thirty five times against Carl Froch.
Here is a video showing Devon Alexander initiating clinching a total of 119 times during his ten-round fight with Maidana. No points were deducted from Devon Alexander.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4If7v...dbFUAAAAAAAAAA
Below is a video showing Andre Ward clinching in his fight against Mikkel Kessler. It argues that fifteen clinches should warrant a point deduction and thirty clinches should warrant a second point deduction. Andre Ward clinched eighty-eight total times against Mikkel Kessler without a point deduction.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDEBCoaR_lU&context=C3a5563fADOEgsToPDskI5 6H7Uk5dGvkldP-DpOepu
Boxers with a well-documented propensity toward clinching are: Andre Berto, Bernard Hopkins, Andre Ward, Shane Mosley etc.
-
Re: How much clinching is excessive? What is the distinction with inside fighting?
good thread mate
i think dirrell was very negative and deserved deductions
the ward kessler fight was shocking that no points were deducted considering the clinching and headbutting
people will disagree with me on this but boxing is entertainment and fighters with unentertaining styles should be punished
:)
-
Re: How much clinching is excessive? What is the distinction with inside fighting?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
erics44
good thread mate
i think dirrell was very negative and deserved deductions
the ward kessler fight was shocking that no points were deducted considering the clinching and headbutting
people will disagree with me on this but boxing is entertainment and fighters with unentertaining styles should be punished
:)
:lolhaha:. I agree that clinching leads to boring boxing.
However, in-fighting does not lead to boring boxing. There's a difference.
-
Re: How much clinching is excessive? What is the distinction with inside fighting?
When I watched the Maidana vs. Alexander fight, I was so pissed off that I had to make a video about it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8v6s7D6sE8
I think that's the video, although I'm not sure.
-
Re: How much clinching is excessive? What is the distinction with inside fighting?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rantcatrat
Quote:
Originally Posted by
erics44
good thread mate
i think dirrell was very negative and deserved deductions
the ward kessler fight was shocking that no points were deducted considering the clinching and headbutting
people will disagree with me on this but boxing is entertainment and fighters with unentertaining styles should be punished
:)
:lolhaha:. I agree that clinching leads to boring boxing.
However, in-fighting does not lead to boring boxing. There's a difference.
I agree, a fight full of infighting can be a very entertaining fight
-
Re: How much clinching is excessive? What is the distinction with inside fighting?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
erics44
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rantcatrat
Quote:
Originally Posted by
erics44
good thread mate
i think dirrell was very negative and deserved deductions
the ward kessler fight was shocking that no points were deducted considering the clinching and headbutting
people will disagree with me on this but boxing is entertainment and fighters with unentertaining styles should be punished
:)
:lolhaha:. I agree that clinching leads to boring boxing.
However, in-fighting does not lead to boring boxing. There's a difference.
I agree, a fight full of infighting can be a very entertaining fight
I appreciate the compliment by the way. Sorry in advance for :gay5:.
-
Re: How much clinching is excessive? What is the distinction with inside fighting?
Good question.
The distinction between clinching and inside fighting is that clinching is just holding the opponent with the odd rabbit punching and inside fighting is getting close to an opponent to land punches. Inside fighters work their way in to fight in the pocket and land hooks and uppercuts, like Joe Frazier did. Clinching is what Ruiz did, in simple terms. A lot of the time inside fighting is confused with holding and hitting, like what Ricky Hatton did a lot of.
-
Re: How much clinching is excessive? What is the distinction with inside fighting?
Anybody who clinches as muchas Ricky Hatton and John Ruiz needs to be disqualified or banned from the sport..
Of course clinching is a part of the game and it can be used as a certain tactic but some fighters just clinch because they have no idea what to do on the inside.. They have no inside fighting ability so they resort to coward ass clinching when the action gets close..
Not James Toney though.. Look what he does on the inside.. He ducks, slips, catches, throws short counters and all those little tricks without doing all that coward ass clinching..
That's the difference between Toney and Bernard Hopkins... Snaggle tooth conman always clinches on the inside because he doesn't have much inside game..
Anyway, excessive clinching, clinching without reason is illegal and it's some coward ass move.. Those kind of moves are for UFC but shit has no place in Boxing..
That's why Hatton and Ruiz are two of the most boring fighters ever..
-
Re: How much clinching is excessive? What is the distinction with inside fighting?
It is a good question, pretty tough to have any kind of cement rule against I figure. Sometimes fighters will sort of walk guys into a clinch sapping a lot of their energy that way and I can really appreciate the craft in it. If it's used really sparingly I don't think it's a bad tool, not everyone can be James Toney and it's inevitably going to happen in a lot of matchups.
Another issue would be whether a fighter being hurt should affect the potential for point deductions. So many great fights have seen guys on queer street hanging on for dear life many times throughout a fight. Should all of these instances be looked at as clinching in the same vein as Andre Ward and lead to more lopsided rounds? It would completely take guys out of the fight and cause some real debauchery imo.
-
Re: How much clinching is excessive? What is the distinction with inside fighting?
Clinching is awful and should result in a LOT more docked points. It is a spoiling tactic and takes away from the enjoyment of a fight. Fighters should be penalized for it.
People like Alexander, Ward and Hopkins are hideous to watch and should lose several points a fight. Referees are too weak against these kinds of fighters.
-
Re: How much clinching is excessive? What is the distinction with inside fighting?
Good points by all.
Holding to clear one's head shouldn't result in a point deduction. We can all agree on that, I believe. The issue becomes thornier when the fighter doing the holding does not appear to be hurt. Excessively using the tactic to slow and control the pace of the contest should warrant a point deduction. The question is where should we draw the line between strategy and excessiveness? Should ten initiated clinches by one boxer in a round be considered excessive? Is there a clean slate after each round? Should the opponent of the clincher, be required to show the referee, that he attempted to get out of the clinch, in order to have the referee take action?
Conversely, if the clinch occurs organically from the boxers' positioning and direction of punches thrown, shouldn't the fighters be permitted to fight out of it? For example, the Povetkin-Huck fight last weekend, where the Pabon too frequently broke it up as soon as the two boxers came close.
-
Re: How much clinching is excessive? What is the distinction with inside fighting?
Clinching can be used as a tool effectively, but it shouldn't be used as a replacement for simply not having the ability to fight on the inside. Simple enough, right?
The referee should hardly have to step in, but in the case of the Alexander fight, points should have been docked.
-
Re: How much clinching is excessive? What is the distinction with inside fighting?
I think there are cases of guys who use a clinch-hold as almost a third weapon. I have no problem with a guy clinching with one hand as long as he's using other to punch or has habit of punching out. Some of the best flurries come off a guy laying in and then busting of combos, punch and get out. Fast handed guys like Alexander and Berto come to mind as almost survivalist clinchers. They explode with one-twos and just as quick leap into a hold to break momentum or avoid return. With Berto its almost a panicky thing. Camacho became a master craftsman of clinching high and low the dude was nearly full ranked greco wrestler. Some perfected holds it and its not really a clean clinch. Hopkins can be as ugly as they come but he's a master at throw back guile and positioning to gain advantage, he'll hold an arm, turn to blindside and bang with the other hand.
-
Re: How much clinching is excessive? What is the distinction with inside fighting?
Well, I have no problem with momentary clinching. Clinch and then move, pop some shots on your way out if you can. You shouldn't be holding on for dear life every time you fight anybody that has a decent inside game. The ref shouldn't even have to tell you to break it up.
-
Re: How much clinching is excessive? What is the distinction with inside fighting?
Isn't this exactly why the ref has discretion. He has to make a judgement call as to weather or not the clinching is in fact excessive holding or not.
I don't agree that excessive holding should be allowed as a tactic to recover from a blow. Boxing is not the MMA.
-
Re: How much clinching is excessive? What is the distinction with inside fighting?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
fan johnny
Isn't this exactly why the ref has discretion. He has to make a judgement call as to weather or not the clinching is in fact excessive holding or not.
I don't agree that excessive holding should be allowed as a tactic to recover from a blow. Boxing is not the MMA.
Exactly, if you are hurt and you haven't learned to smart it out, then you deserve to be knocked out or have points taken when you clinch.
There is never an excuse to spoil a fight.
-
Re: How much clinching is excessive? What is the distinction with inside fighting?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Slim the BoxingManiac
Linked the wrong video.
This is the video I made immediately after the Alexander-Maidana fight.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EySQ_Jepty0
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Slim the BoxingManiac
Tell me you didn't just call me a "complete tool" and to "kill yourself faggot" in that other thread after posting these two abominations you call "videos"?? I've seen it all now..
Anyway, clinching is ugly, horrible and exposes a fighters lack of defensive skill. I thought Ricky Hatton got far too much credit for his hit and hold style. I felt so sorry for Kostya in Manchester when Ricky clinched him and put his head right under his chin..Kostya looked at that fat cunt Dave Paris like "Wtf?? You can get him off me whenever you feel like it?"
Just makes a fight boring.
-
Re: How much clinching is excessive? What is the distinction with inside fighting?
I now miss Charlie Z.....and Thunder for that matter
-
Re: How much clinching is excessive? What is the distinction with inside fighting?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Althugz
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Slim the BoxingManiac
Tell me you didn't just call me a "complete tool" and to "kill yourself faggot" in that other thread after posting these two abominations you call "videos"?? I've seen it all now..
Anyway, clinching is ugly, horrible and exposes a fighters lack of defensive skill. I thought Ricky Hatton got far too much credit for his hit and hold style. I felt so sorry for Kostya in Manchester when Ricky clinched him and put his head right under his chin..Kostya looked at that fat cunt Dave Paris like "Wtf?? You can get him off me whenever you feel like it?"
Just makes a fight boring.
And what the fuck have you been posting?
-
Re: How much clinching is excessive? What is the distinction with inside fighting?
Once you know a fighter is a spoiler like that you should be able to change tactics a bit too and force them to think otherwise. Seems like fighters should be taught how to drop gravity and twist out of a hug attack as they go, Switch and punch up the gap right as they go to grapple, Or attack their lead arm a millisecond before the head, bang bang disrupt their timing, even step back for room and over hand bombs right as they try to hold.
They going to rethinking it if you catch them hard enough.
Fuck continual grabbers anyway theres always an accidental knee to the nuts as you walk forwards .. Flip em upside down land em on the their head go down with them land on the fukker the ref will be even more confused if he is that stupid already.
-
Re: How much clinching is excessive? What is the distinction with inside fighting?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Slim the BoxingManiac
whats a twot?
we dont have those in england
-
Re: How much clinching is excessive? What is the distinction with inside fighting?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Andre
Once you know a fighter is a spoiler like that you should be able to change tactics a bit too and force them to think otherwise. Seems like fighters should be taught how to drop gravity and twist out of a hug attack as they go, Switch and punch up the gap right as they go to grapple, Or attack their lead arm a millisecond before the head, bang bang disrupt their timing, even step back for room and over hand bombs right as they try to hold.
They going to rethinking it if you catch them hard enough.
Fuck continual grabbers anyway theres always an accidental knee to the nuts as you walk forwards .. Flip em upside down land em on the their head go down with them land on the fukker the ref will be even more confused if he is that stupid already.
Stop beating around the bush and tell us what you REALLY think about clinching......... LOL.
You're usually pretty laid back about most things, but you seem to have a sore spot for excessive clinching. I don't blame you... so do I. By the way, those are some pretty good techniques. I busted out laughing at the bolded one. "Accidental knee" indeed. Ha-ha-ha.
;D
-
Re: How much clinching is excessive? What is the distinction with inside fighting?
I agree with Spicoli big time here, when a fighter has clearly worked it into their game plan, it'w too much. We watch to see the Sweet Science not wrestling. There are times when a clinch is called for, e.g. you're hurt, an opponent makes an unexpected move leaving you vulnerable. And times where it is unnecessary e.g. after throwing a jab or 1-2. I think the distinction is when clinching is used offensively vs. defensively.
Count the clinches in this fight
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0Notdl3D9w
or here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pBF8Tab49c
-
Re: How much clinching is excessive? What is the distinction with inside fighting?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Andre
Once you know a fighter is a spoiler like that you should be able to change tactics a bit too and force them to think otherwise. Seems like fighters should be taught how to drop gravity and twist out of a hug attack as they go, Switch and punch up the gap right as they go to grapple, Or attack their lead arm a millisecond before the head, bang bang disrupt their timing, even step back for room and over hand bombs right as they try to hold.
They going to rethinking it if you catch them hard enough.
Fuck continual grabbers anyway theres always an accidental knee to the nuts as you walk forwards .. Flip em upside down land em on the their head go down with them land on the fukker the ref will be even more confused if he is that stupid already.
:coolclick:
I totally agree.
I saw this thread a good few days ago and wanted to really think about what I wanted to say but in a nutshell you nailed it ;D
This sport has evolved a lot over the course of 100+ years and boxers have proved time an time again that there is always an answer to everything.
-
Re: How much clinching is excessive? What is the distinction with inside fighting?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
killersheep
I agree with Spicoli big time here, when a fighter has clearly worked it into their game plan, it'w too much. We watch to see the Sweet Science not wrestling. There are times when a clinch is called for, e.g. you're hurt, an opponent makes an unexpected move leaving you vulnerable. And times where it is unnecessary e.g. after throwing a jab or 1-2. I
think the distinction is when clinching is used offensively vs. defensively.
Count the clinches in this fight
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0Notdl3D9w
or here
Jhonny Gonzalez vs Roinet Caballero ジョニゴンvsロイネット・カバイェロ - YouTube
That's a very good point and may indeed be the distinction. Let me pose a question to you then. How much offensive clinching should be permitted before it is deemed excessive? 5 initiated offensive clinches in a round? 10?
If the combatants have one arm free, then there is no clinch, right? That's just inside fighting? Is that correct?
-
Re: How much clinching is excessive? What is the distinction with inside fighting?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Andre
Once you know a fighter is a spoiler like that you should be able to change tactics a bit too and force them to think otherwise. Seems like fighters should be taught how to drop gravity and twist out of a hug attack as they go, Switch and punch up the gap right as they go to grapple, Or attack their lead arm a millisecond before the head, bang bang disrupt their timing, even step back for room and over hand bombs right as they try to hold.
They going to rethinking it if you catch them hard enough.
Fuck continual grabbers anyway theres always an accidental knee to the nuts as you walk forwards .. Flip em upside down land em on the their head go down with them land on the fukker the ref will be even more confused if he is that stupid already.
Andre, I completely respect your opinion on the subject. Isn't it very difficult to stop the clinch if it happens immediately after a jab or a one-two? It's possible to get out of the clinch in the ways you mention, but to stop it before, or as it happens, is tough, right? That's where the referee comes into play?
-
Re: How much clinching is excessive? What is the distinction with inside fighting?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rantcatrat
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Andre
Once you know a fighter is a spoiler like that you should be able to change tactics a bit too and force them to think otherwise. Seems like fighters should be taught how to drop gravity and twist out of a hug attack as they go, Switch and punch up the gap right as they go to grapple, Or attack their lead arm a millisecond before the head, bang bang disrupt their timing, even step back for room and over hand bombs right as they try to hold.
They going to rethinking it if you catch them hard enough.
Fuck continual grabbers anyway theres always an accidental knee to the nuts as you walk forwards .. Flip em upside down land em on the their head go down with them land on the fukker the ref will be even more confused if he is that stupid already.
Andre, I completely respect your opinion on the subject. Isn't it very difficult to stop the clinch if it happens immediately after a jab or a one-two? It's possible to get out of the clinch in the ways you mention, but to stop it before, or as it happens, is tough, right? That's where the referee comes into play?
Oh that was a couple of ideas I was just thinking aloud.
Yeah its where the ref should come into play.
To stop it before it occurs you going to have to change the style of the fight jab and move.
If someones got it only in their mind to hold you are going to be able to catch them, trouble is they snap a few too at distance then lurch in,but hey if you know they are in a pattern of doing that and can cease the in fight mentality yoursself and make space you could catch em and move.
Do you see boxers train with a sparring partner that just tries to spoil and grab or jab move and hold I dont even know if boxers practice ways out?
Tough job for the clean fighter when theres rules to obey with another persons personality controlling the event (the ref not doing their job with point reductions).
Some guys will even hold the wrist and glove in the crook of their arm so a fighter cant pull it out of there.
If that happened in mma you could fold your arm like a wing and bring your elbow up and over and use that into their chest or chin but in boxing the ref will foul you instead of Mr wants hold hands instead of fight. Its not fair.
-
Re: How much clinching is excessive? What is the distinction with inside fighting?
-
Re: How much clinching is excessive? What is the distinction with inside fighting?
I think there's a difference between two boxers of around the same size and height clinching while still more or less trying to fight and when the clinches happen after an attack is launched, and a 6 ft 7 fighter constantly clinching a 6 ft 2 guy continually so much that it's basically their game plan.
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rantcatrat
Good find.
I swear I never knew clinching was flat out illegal... As in "rule number 3 no clinching allowed!"
So in theory, someone like Amir Khan was lucky not to be disqualified right?
-
Re: How much clinching is excessive? What is the distinction with inside fighting?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jimanuel Boogustus
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rantcatrat
Good find.
I swear I never knew clinching was flat out illegal... As in "rule number 3 no clinching allowed!"
So in theory, someone like Amir Khan was lucky not to be disqualified right?
Yes, holding is illegal. There is a difference though between holding so that your opponent can't punch and having one arm remain free. Are you referring to the Lamont Peterson fight? I'll need to rewatch it.
It's one thing to clinch a couple of times a round because of awkward positioning or physical momentum and it's another thing to clinch 117 times in one fight like Devon Alexander did in the fight with Marcos Maidana.
Question for saddo posters. What referees consistently take points away for clinching? I'm considering putting together a list of fights where points have been taken away for clinching.
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rantcatrat
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jimanuel Boogustus
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rantcatrat
Good find.
I swear I never knew clinching was flat out illegal... As in "rule number 3 no clinching allowed!"
So in theory, someone like Amir Khan was lucky not to be disqualified right?
Yes, holding is illegal. There is a difference though between holding so that your opponent can't punch and having one arm remain free. Are you referring to the Lamont Peterson fight? I'll need to rewatch it.
It's one thing to clinch a couple of times a round because of awkward positioning or physical momentum and it's another thing to clinch 117 times in one fight like Devon Alexander did in the fight with Marcos Maidana.
Question for saddo posters. What referees consistently take points away for clinching? I'm considering putting together a list of fights where points have been taken away for clinching.
No dont do that, these referees have families to support ;D
