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Abraham fought the full 12 with his jaw broken in 2 different spots, Ali went the distance with Norton with his jaw hanging off, sorry I've been one of the guys defending Ortiz from the get go but the kid keeps setting himself up for criticism and he's in the wrong business IMO he has all the talent in the world but he doesn't have the mentality or heart of a fighter, he basically fucked his career over IMO last nightQuote:
Originally Posted by ruthless rocco
Attachment 2440Quote:
Originally Posted by ElTerribleMoralesAbraham fought the full 12 with his jaw broken in 2 different spots, Ali went the distance with Norton with his jaw hanging off, sorry I've been one of the guys defending Ortiz from the get go but the kid keeps setting himself up for criticism and he's in the wrong business IMO he has all the talent in the world but he doesn't have the mentality or heart of a fighter, he basically fucked his career over IMO last nightQuote:
Originally Posted by ruthless rocco
his fighting career may be shot...
but he'll still have a career staring at his own junk in a mirror.
Ortiz had a much worse injury than Ali's fracture. Jump ahead to 45 mins and you can see Ali playing with his sore Jaw like its a loose tooth. Why the hell should any fighter risk permanent injury?Quote:
Originally Posted by ElTerribleMoralesAbraham fought the full 12 with his jaw broken in 2 different spots, Ali went the distance with Norton with his jaw hanging off, sorry I've been one of the guys defending Ortiz from the get go but the kid keeps setting himself up for criticism and he's in the wrong business IMO he has all the talent in the world but he doesn't have the mentality or heart of a fighter, he basically fucked his career over IMO last nightQuote:
Originally Posted by ruthless rocco
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbYtHaduVZ8
Exactly what I was thinking when I saw him quit on his stool. Ortiz actually looked like he could have had Lopez out of their whenever he wanted really, at one point when he hit him behind the head it looked like Lopez actually wanted to quit, but Ortiz encouraged him by giving him some breathing space and backing off of him when he took a few shots. And then he just gave up when he damaged his jaw. Fact is he was up on the scorecards and if he'd just boxed smart for a few more rounds he would have won and been set up for his big pay day against Canelo. But that was never in his mind. As soon as he was hurt he was looking for a way out, and that's the bottom line - he just doesn't have the right mentality to break into that elite group of boxers, though he does seem to have the talent, so it's a shame.Quote:
Originally Posted by ElTerribleMoralesAbraham fought the full 12 with his jaw broken in 2 different spots, Ali went the distance with Norton with his jaw hanging off, sorry I've been one of the guys defending Ortiz from the get go but the kid keeps setting himself up for criticism and he's in the wrong business IMO he has all the talent in the world but he doesn't have the mentality or heart of a fighter, he basically fucked his career over IMO last nightQuote:
Originally Posted by ruthless rocco
Malignagi fought most of the fight against Cotto with a broken jaw too.
I remember Ferdie Pacheco questioning McClellan’s heart prior to his collapse.
Tough cause everyone is different. Liston fought with a broken jaw but could not fight with a dislocated shoulder yet guys like Pascal and McGirt could. I do not think as others have mentioned here and elsewhere that Ortiz has the brain pan of a fighter. It’s almost as if he took it as a second job or hobby and lucked out along the way. The Mayweather fight sealed the deal for me. Ortiz was just plain weird before, during and after the stoppage.
Having said that, boxers are not obligated to be taken out on a stretcher. I’ve never had a broken jaw so I’m not sure how I would react let alone finishing a fight with one. Ali finished and so did Abe but that was after a long break and coaching by the ref. I wonder how many other highly regarded fighters today would fight or flight with such an injury.
I have no desire for another Parent, Owen, Moore, Knox, Johnson, Kim, Sanders or Campbell to name a few. Fighters do not have to die in the ring on my account.
Malignaggi had a broken cheek bone I believe but still showed heart going onQuote:
Originally Posted by Althugz
Ali was just cut from a different cloth than Ortiz, Ali was a gluten for punishment and that's why he was able to shrug off the jaw a lot more than Ortiz, sorry but you're in a must win situation with a huge fight on the horizon and u decide to call it a night when you're already ahead on the cards? you do so then you deserve the label you're givenQuote:
Originally Posted by fan johnnyOrtiz had a much worse injury than Ali's fracture. Jump ahead to 45 mins and you can see Ali playing with his sore Jaw like its a loose tooth. Why the hell should any fighter risk permanent injury?Quote:
Originally Posted by ElTerribleMoralesAbraham fought the full 12 with his jaw broken in 2 different spots, Ali went the distance with Norton with his jaw hanging off, sorry I've been one of the guys defending Ortiz from the get go but the kid keeps setting himself up for criticism and he's in the wrong business IMO he has all the talent in the world but he doesn't have the mentality or heart of a fighter, he basically fucked his career over IMO last nightQuote:
Originally Posted by ruthless rocco
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbYtHaduVZ8
does anyone know the night of weights for the lopez ortiz fight?
lopez weighed in 144.75 and ortiz 146.5... but what was the difference in the ring fight night?
anyone?
I get what you're saying, but you've taken it to an extreme here (I believe the phrase is 'reductio ad absurdum); I don't think Ortiz was in any danger of dying at the hands of Lopez last night. He had a simple choice to make between suffering through the last 12 minutes in agony and winning the fight, and going home early and potentially dealing irreparable damage to his reputation. He chose the latter. Worse still, he didn't even look upset about it, he was quite hearty in his congratulations of Lopez for bringing the fight to a premature end. I'm sorry, but that is not a fighter's mentality. Boxing is brutal and if you have want to rise to the top you can't give up just because things get tough - and you certainly don't congratulate your opponent for forcing you to quit. It shows a deeply disturbing psychological fragility tbh, and that's not just something that is applicable to the ring. Of course Ortiz has the right to walk away, he is his own man and I can respect that - but it doesn't change the fact that he is clearly in the wrong business if his gut instinct is to quit when things get hard. I don't say that to disrespect him, it's just an objective observation - he simply can't compete at an elite level with that mentality, and I'm sure his aim is not to be mediocre, or just 'good'.Quote:
Originally Posted by IamInuit
ortiz brings it every time...he might not have the heart of ali but few do. If he was hurt he was hurt I always find it bemusing when people decide to criticize a fighter for being weak cause they didn't want to fight with an injury n then call him soft. Dude went 9 pretty grueling rounds not the work of someone who's soft. he's always in exciting fights and certainly gives us fans our moneys worth when we pay, a lot more fighters would be labeled pansies and pussies if they gave us the sort of fights ortiz does...I do think ortiz could do with a sports psychologists not for his lack of heart but he seems to have lapses where he looses it mentally and goes primal
Not sure how this is reduction to absurdity.Quote:
Originally Posted by SRRI get what you're saying, but you've taken it to an extreme here (I believe the phrase is 'reductio ad absurdum); I don't think Ortiz was in any danger of dying at the hands of Lopez last night. He had a simple choice to make between suffering through the last 12 minutes in agony and winning the fight, and going home early and potentially dealing irreparable damage to his reputation. He chose the latter. Worse still, he didn't even look upset about it, he was quite hearty in his congratulations of Lopez for bringing the fight to a premature end. I'm sorry, but that is not a fighter's mentality. Boxing is brutal and if you have want to rise to the top you can't give up just because things get tough - and you certainly don't congratulate your opponent for forcing you to quit. It shows a deeply disturbing psychological fragility tbh, and that's not just something that is applicable to the ring. Of course Ortiz has the right to walk away, he is his own man and I can respect that - but it doesn't change the fact that he is clearly in the wrong business if his gut instinct is to quit when things get hard. I don't say that to disrespect him, it's just an objective observation - he simply can't compete at an elite level with that mentality, and I'm sure his aim is not to be mediocre, or just 'good'.Quote:
Originally Posted by IamInuit
Fact is...all of those I alluded to felt some calling to carry on. Ortiz is not one of those men. I'll also stick to the question which begs itself. How many fighters in this coddled backwards interpretation of risk and reward would have carried on with a broken jaw? None I say. Not a one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by IamInuit
its absurd cause it's a broken jaw, not death in the ring.
as for risk/reward... canelo alvarez money can get you the best surgeons around.
look at arthur abraham...dedicated prize fighter/champion.
surfer vic just wants everyone to like him cause he's got abandonment issues.
I think Jeff Fenech once went the full 12 with Marcos Villasana with 2 broken hands and a broken orbital bone in his face, and he won.
If I may, he had his jaw broken. He had it taken place in a location in which your opponent trains for months preparing to render you separate from your consciousness. I think to call Victor soft hearted is a bit extreme do the fact that he had a broken jaw.
Vitali Klitschko is one of the toughest man I seen walk in the ring, he fought against Chisora with an injured arm but he couldn't continue against Byrd. Injuries are as unique as the fighters themselves; even similar injuries bring out different results.
I dislike Victor as a fighter and I do think he's mentally weak but even with all that in consideration I would not ever use the phrase 'he quit on his stool' for this fight for the simple fact that a broken jaw is quite severe.
Oh ok! I knew he had something facial as he puffed up like a puffer fish. Malignaggi has never been short of heart. I do like the guy..Honest, charismatic and a good fighter - such a shame he wasn't blessed with that K.O power.Quote:
Originally Posted by ElTerribleMoralesMalignaggi had a broken cheek bone I believe but still showed heart going onQuote:
Originally Posted by Althugz
Many fighters go through the pain barrier, broken hand's jaw's rib's etd , it's a long list and a lot pre vale
and go the distances win lose or draw. Ortiz is not that type he a on top fighter, a big puncher with a small heart, when he's on top he looks good, but when he has to take it he curs out, he's a hard punching cur.
Tommy Morrison carried on, and sparked out Joe Hipp, with a broken jaw and two broken hands.
Oktte Urkal had one against Kostya and fought on, hard hitting fight that one.
No what you just said is and another who lost the plot. Take a remedial reading course instead of trying to come up with some one liner.Quote:
Originally Posted by ruthless roccoQuote:
Originally Posted by IamInuit
its absurd cause it's a broken jaw, not death in the ring.
as for risk/reward... canelo alvarez money can get you the best surgeons around.
look at arthur abraham...dedicated prize fighter/champion.
surfer vic just wants everyone to like him cause he's got abandonment issues.
Boxers die in the ring dumb ass because they do the very thing that is/was expected of Ortiz.
lol Ortiz ain't no pussy! I saw my wife give birth three weeks ago... those things will stretch a mile before they tear an inch :-X But seriously, its a little harsh questioning any fighter's heart from behind a keyboard. Sure alot of fighters have fought on with injuries but alot have also quit on their stool. It'd be interesting to find out how many posters here have fought through such adversity... maybe we should set up some kind of poll :p I think Cotto said it best during his Face Off with Margarito. At the end of the day the fans will remember you as a hardkunt, cheer you on while you fuck yourself up but when the curtains come down they won't be there to look after you and your family. Come to think of it, if Margarito took a leaf out of "little girl" Cotto's book maybe he'd still be able to take a left hook to that eyesore of an eye he's scored himself :confused:
the difference is the only time Cotto gave in was against a man who was packing concrete in his gloves and he still took his lumps till the 11th with a broken nose, Ortiz has already flaked out not once but twice, and in the only other loss he was content with the stoppage, Cotto said he wouldn't die in the ring but he never backed down from a fair challenge or looked for the easy way out like Ortiz has done already on 3 different occasionsQuote:
Originally Posted by jahmez
hmmm.... remedial reading course huh? i read and understood what you wrote.Quote:
Originally Posted by IamInuit
my bad bro! i didn't realize that there are a bunch of fighters that have died from broken jaws...
this thread has shown there's quite a few fighters that have suffered broken jaws and have continued to fight the fights in which they had their jaws broken, and have continued fighting and had successful careers after.
no broken jaw deaths listed so far.... maybe you can enlighten us?
Ali fought with a broken jaw but did say if he had known he would not have carried on but I guess if he knew near the end of the fight he would have carried on, if it was at the start he said he would not have.
Abraham showed a massive heart when he fought Miranda and no one would have thought any less of his had he retired from that fight.
Because you finished your post by implying that my line of thinking is that a man has to be willing to die in the ring to be called a true fighter, which is not what I'm suggesting at all. What I am suggesting is that boxing is a sport where injuries are not a possibility but (almost) a certainty, and in my opinion if you're not willing to continue when you are not hurt to the point where you're at serious risk of sustaining a long term injury (particularly given the circumstances of him being up on the cards with only a few rounds left - if it had happened in the 3rd round then I could understand him saying there's no point because he might feel his ability to win the subsequent rounds would be compromised, but with only 3 left he only really had to hold on) then you're in the wrong business. In most martial arts, including boxing (at least the tradition of boxing) there is a strong notion of 'fighting spirit', and it's difficult to explain to people who view boxing purely as business. Many may feel Ortiz was being sensible, but in business terms he threw away a lot of money for the sake of 12 minutes, when he had an injury he could easily have gone the distance with. More than that, you don't show such weakness to an opponent, you don't quit on your stool when you can still stand up and you still have your senses. If he quits on his stool would he turn and run if his family were in danger? Would he hesitate in the heat of battle when someone confronts him on the street and end up injured or worse? It's not just the fact that he backed down, it's the fact he did it with a smile on his face. It showed a weakness of character that in the Mayweather fight many gave him the benefit of the doubt for, calling it naivete. Did anyone else get the impression Ortiz could have gotten up after being floored by Mayweather? Anyone else feel that he once again took the easy way out? I certainly did. Perhaps you think that is a strength, that he is gracious in defeat but if you ask me the kid's head is a little messed up. He's too nice to be a great boxer, that's the cold hard truth. Doesn't mean he's a bad person, or that he couldn't be good at something else, but he won't reach the very top with his current attitude. Nobody wants to see anybody die in the ring and I worry for fighters who say they would rather die in the ring than give up, but as I said before you're taking the details of this scenario to an extreme because Ortiz was never in any real danger against this guy. In fact, the other night, Ortiz, as is often the case, was his greatest enemy, and put himself in danger by the way he handled that fight. He could have finished it before he ever got hit by that shot. He was intimidated by Lopez's power after he got caught a few times, and backed off - but did not box smart, did not frustrate his opponent and buy himself time to smother his resurgence, did not jump back on him, did none of these things, but did the single worse thing he could have done, which was to allow him to grow in confidence. As I've said, it's no disrespect to Victor Ortiz to say that he just doesn't have it in him to be a great boxer, it's just an objective observation. In life you have to pick your battles, and there's no reason for a prize fighter to give his life for the sake of what is now purely a sport, BUT his consistent quitting is a sign of a mental fragility that means he will always struggle at the top level of boxing.Quote:
Originally Posted by IamInuitNot sure how this is reduction to absurdity.Quote:
Originally Posted by SRRI get what you're saying, but you've taken it to an extreme here (I believe the phrase is 'reductio ad absurdum); I don't think Ortiz was in any danger of dying at the hands of Lopez last night. He had a simple choice to make between suffering through the last 12 minutes in agony and winning the fight, and going home early and potentially dealing irreparable damage to his reputation. He chose the latter. Worse still, he didn't even look upset about it, he was quite hearty in his congratulations of Lopez for bringing the fight to a premature end. I'm sorry, but that is not a fighter's mentality. Boxing is brutal and if you have want to rise to the top you can't give up just because things get tough - and you certainly don't congratulate your opponent for forcing you to quit. It shows a deeply disturbing psychological fragility tbh, and that's not just something that is applicable to the ring. Of course Ortiz has the right to walk away, he is his own man and I can respect that - but it doesn't change the fact that he is clearly in the wrong business if his gut instinct is to quit when things get hard. I don't say that to disrespect him, it's just an objective observation - he simply can't compete at an elite level with that mentality, and I'm sure his aim is not to be mediocre, or just 'good'.Quote:
Originally Posted by IamInuit
Fact is...all of those I alluded to felt some calling to carry on. Ortiz is not one of those men. I'll also stick to the question which begs itself. How many fighters in this coddled backwards interpretation of risk and reward would have carried on with a broken jaw? None I say. Not a one.
In answer to your question, I honestly could not tell you. You never really know how mentally strong a fighter is until he really is in deep water. Off the top of my head Marquez is perhaps too brave for his own good. I'm sure there are more, but those that are have generally been raised with the understanding of that notion of fighting spirit drilled into them - often through some form of social depravity/poverty/hardship. They learn to be fighters because they have to. They learn to never give up, because the world doesn't owe them a thing, and if they want something they have to stand up and take it, and be prepared to be knocked down, and get back up, and keep clawing at the elusive prospect of victory. Perhaps that is silly or incomprehensible to some people, but you know what? If I had my back against a wall Marquez is a guy I would be able to count on, someone whose mental strength transcends all physical boundaries. This is the psychology of boxing, of all martial arts. When you step up to fight someone and you make your first attack and they flinch, you're a shoe-in. When you lay it on and they turn their head away their body language tells you all you need to know about their lack of mental toughness. Ortiz is one of those fighters who doesn't have that fighting spirit you look for in a fighter - he's tried very hard to give the appearance of being tough, to stand toe to toe with a guy and trade for a while because he knows it is what's expected of him, but when it looks like things are about to really get messy he bails, and that's just the truth of the matter - not passing judgement or getting into the ethics or philosophy behind such decisions, but that's the bottom line. He could have continued. He chose not to. Let's not sugar coat it by trying to suggest that others may suffer from the same mental weakness, or sensationalise it by suggesting he was going to die if he fought 12 minutes with a broken jaw.
It was broke, that's as clear as day. What gets me is he literally couldn't want that fight over any faster. No one, not the ref, corner man, Dr. examined him. I think he experienced something he's never felt and he panicked. He is a high strung guy in the ring and just...spazs out. It wasn't luck, wasn't a fluke and save the 'i feel so bad for him'. Every man has a breaking point, mentally and physically and a tolerance level or degree of will to push on. Each has to live with what follows. I honestly think it all hit him in the locker room on camera when he sunk down and was glaring in the mirror. He looked broken, jaw and mind.
On permanent damage etc. Where was his concern for permanent damage when he was hitting Lopez in the base of the skull or ramming his head into Mayweathers face. I don't think a fighter can enter with that kind of mentality at the front of his mind and expect to be at the top of his game. If it's always on the mind he may want to consider another field. I'd imagine trading flush shots round after round has to do far more damage in the long run than anything on the surface.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spicoli
I don't remember this being mentioned very much here. As with the Mayweather headbutt, this was a blatant, completely unacceptable foul. I was amazed and disappointed that the ref did not immediately take a point away... maybe even two. Ortiz certainly doesn't seem to have the mental or emotional makeup necessary to be in the ring. And yes, he probably needs to consider another line of work.
On 3 occasions he has quit, it may seem harsh but he's a quitter or some may say a cur,fine dishing it out but can't take it back. A on top fighter with out a doubt.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spicoli
Ortiz is a commentator in waiting. He will be good at that until then he will try his hand at boxing.
But isn't it his choice to quit did he not give 9 rounds that were entertaining as hell??? Its not like he robbed anyone of a great show, I would understand the criticism if he went out there for 9 rds avoiding exchanges and puting in a non effort and then quit bu he gave 9 exciting rounds, same for the maidana fight that fight was really exciting...so what if he draws the line at broken jaw, or in the maidana fight my face looks like utter shit, I have yet to see him in a shit fight recently, pbf one excludedQuote:
Originally Posted by Dia bandoOn 3 occasions he has quit, it may seem harsh but he's a quitter or some may say a cur,fine dishing it out but can't take it back. A on top fighter with out a doubt.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spicoli
You being from Kentucky no what a cur is, and he's a cur.Quote:
Originally Posted by arminBut isn't it his choice to quit did he not give 9 rounds that were entertaining as hell??? Its not like he robbed anyone of a great show, I would understand the criticism if he went out there for 9 rds avoiding exchanges and puting in a non effort and then quit bu he gave 9 exciting rounds, same for the maidana fight that fight was really exciting...so what if he draws the line at broken jaw, or in the maidana fight my face looks like utter shit, I have yet to see him in a shit fight recently, pbf one excludedQuote:
Originally Posted by Dia bandoOn 3 occasions he has quit, it may seem harsh but he's a quitter or some may say a cur,fine dishing it out but can't take it back. A on top fighter with out a doubt.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spicoli
I have a hard time getting behind anyone who thinks athletes, fighters especially, should sacrifice their bodies to their sport.
The Ortiz, Lopez fight was a great fight until Ortiz decided against more damage to his jaw. I will definitely pay to see the rematch, and I hope it's ASAP. We've all paid for fights, that had less action.
There is normally a winner and a loser, you can't have one without the other, and they both deserve our respect.
I'm not from kentucky but have lived here for 13 years and I have yet to hear someone refered to as a cur so I actually have no clue what one isQuote:
Originally Posted by Dia bandoYou being from Kentucky no what a cur is, and he's a cur.Quote:
Originally Posted by arminBut isn't it his choice to quit did he not give 9 rounds that were entertaining as hell??? Its not like he robbed anyone of a great show, I would understand the criticism if he went out there for 9 rds avoiding exchanges and puting in a non effort and then quit bu he gave 9 exciting rounds, same for the maidana fight that fight was really exciting...so what if he draws the line at broken jaw, or in the maidana fight my face looks like utter shit, I have yet to see him in a shit fight recently, pbf one excludedQuote:
Originally Posted by Dia bandoOn 3 occasions he has quit, it may seem harsh but he's a quitter or some may say a cur,fine dishing it out but can't take it back. A on top fighter with out a doubt.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spicoli
In other word's gameness, and he has none 3 time quieter so I would say, he has lost peoplesQuote:
Originally Posted by arminI'm not from kentucky but have lived here for 13 years and I have yet to hear someone refered to as a cur so I actually have no clue what one isQuote:
Originally Posted by Dia bandoYou being from Kentucky no what a cur is, and he's a cur.Quote:
Originally Posted by arminBut isn't it his choice to quit did he not give 9 rounds that were entertaining as hell??? Its not like he robbed anyone of a great show, I would understand the criticism if he went out there for 9 rds avoiding exchanges and puting in a non effort and then quit bu he gave 9 exciting rounds, same for the maidana fight that fight was really exciting...so what if he draws the line at broken jaw, or in the maidana fight my face looks like utter shit, I have yet to see him in a shit fight recently, pbf one excludedQuote:
Originally Posted by Dia bandoOn 3 occasions he has quit, it may seem harsh but he's a quitter or some may say a cur,fine dishing it out but can't take it back. A on top fighter with out a doubt.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spicoli
support. From now on when or if he fights, when you watch him in the back of peoples minds,
will be not if he quit's but when he quit's.