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In order of greatness:
-Wladimir klitschko (Ring mag and current linear champ)
-Vitali klitschko (A 3x HW champ)
-Joe calzaghe (Undisputed SMW champ, ring champ at SMW and LHW, one of the longest reigning champion's ever)
-Kostya tszyu (#1 fighter at 140lbs for over 10 years and was the first fighter in 30 years to unify the title's at 140 lbs)
-Dariusz michalkzewski (Linear champ at LHW, ring mag champ from 97-03, and WBO cruiserweight Champion)
Joe Calzaghe
big gap
the rest :)
Since when has Australia via Russia been European?
Only Tszyu is Russian and Russia is in Europe anyway??Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobthepen
Calzaghe - hard to argue otherwise as he never lost
Wlad - A shade better than his brother
Vitali - as above
Dariusz - beat some decent fighters, and made a lot of defences
Tszyu - Overrated. First to unify all belts in 30 years? The sanctioning bodies pissed everybody about for so long it wasn't the achievement it sounds, especially in a weak division.
Only in the minds of those who have been recently educated in the UK or America.Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG HOnly Tszyu is Russian and Russia is in Europe anyway??Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobthepen
Joe cal I know some people didn't enjoy watchin him but I did and really think had the ability to compete with anyone
Torn on second place, because I think on vitalis best day
he is strong enough and durable enough to get to his bro late so I guess vitali and then wlad
Kostya and then dariusz
1. Wladimir Klitschko (because of so many dominant wins over good fighters during a period of many years)
2. Joe Calzaghe
3. Dariusz M
4. Kostya Tszyu
5. Vitali Klitschko (his resume isn't nearly as good as Wlad's)
Joe and Dariusz are two of the most underrated boxers in history and likely always will be. However, I think Wlad may finally receive the recognition he deserves after he retires.
1. Wladimir Klitschko
2. Kostya Tszyu
3. Vitali Klitschko
4. Dariusz Michalkzewski
5. Joe Calzaghe
Vitali Kiltschko - Hasn't lost since Lewis (Lewis quickly retires in fear of a rematch)
Kostya Tszyu - fought 16 world champions beating one in only his 4th fight)
Wladimr Klitschko- Has a couple of bad losses, but doesn't look like losing currently.
Joe Calzaghe- Overrated
Darius Michalczewski-Underrated
Rating champions from different divisions is a little too 'apples and oranges' for me but the two things that immediately sprang to mind was that Wladimir is probably a more bona fide champion than his brother but I can't help but feel that Vitali allowed Wlad to be the champion that he has.
Also seeing as Joe and Darius are at similar weights - Id have say the have had very similar careers. Darius has the lineage thing but then he doesn't have Roy Jones on his record (;D).... Dunno... Very similar careers.
Kostya Tszyu? Pass.
The greatness of tszyu is under appreciated, true story! I used to love the way he would knock out slick fighters. Watch this (Cool video):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJwmO...feature=fvwrel
Here's a list of some of the opponents he beat , their record when they first fought Kostya and some of the titles they've held...
Zab Judah (27-0-0) WBO/IBF140 , WBC/WBA/IBF147 Champion
Sharmba Mitchell (47-2-0) WBA/IBF140 Champion
Julio Cesar Chavez (103-4-2) WBC130 , WBC/WBA135 , WBC/IBF140
Champion
Roger Mayweather (54-11-0) WBA130 , WBC/IBO140 , IBA/IBO147 Champion
Rafael Ruelas (52-3-0) IBF135 Champion
Jesse James Leija (43-5-2) WBC130 , IBA135 Champion
Oktay Urkal (28-0-0)
Ben Tackie (24-2-0)
Miguel Angel Gonzalez (43-1-1) WBC135 Champion
Diobelys Hurtado (28-1-0) WBA/IBA140 Champion
Calvin Grove (49-9-0) IBF126 Champion
Ismael Armando Chaves (40-5-3)
Jan Piet Bergman (32-0-0) WBU147 Champion
Corey Johnson (20-1-1) IBC140 Champion
Hugo Pineda (27-0-1)
Jake Rodriguez (26-2-2) IBF140 Champion
Pedro Sanchez (26-1-2)
Angel Hernandez (40-1-2)
Hector Lopez (26-2-1)
Livingstone Bramble (34-11-3) WBA135 Champion
Juan LaPorte (37-12-0) WBC126 Champion
Kostya was the #1 fighter at 140lbs for over 10 years!!!!!!
He also was the first fighter in 30 years to unify the title's at 140 lbs. Judah WAS a big win, judah was also favored to beat Tszyu!! This guy was the business pure & simple. If more fighters these days had his work ethics & discipline boxing would be in a better state.
His only bad loss was to Phillips, a fight that he was WINNING up until the last couple of rounds where his terrible training habits and lack of activity (most people forget that he had only fought one round in a year) of the time cost him the fight after he ran out of gas. Still, after renewing his proper training he came back and didn't lose for the next eight years until his last fight at the age of 36 against Hatton in a brawl.
He fought an incredible sixteen champions in his short career (only had thirty or so fights) and was often stiffed during his prime years for lack of willing opponents. He just missed out on big fights with Mosley, Oscar, Mayweather for the high risk, low reward factor that he brought up until his final years as an older fighter in one of the top divisions in boxing where he was finally a big money opponent and name.
One of his better years though was 2001 which he was able to get three fights unifying the titles in a great fight against Sharmba Mitchell, defending it against the number one contender and undefeated 28-0 Oktay Urkal, then finishing the year by spectacularly knocking out the undefeated 27-0 IBF champion Zab Judah in two rounds thus becoming the first undisputed 140 pound champion in over thirty years.
He first turned pro in '92 and by '95 was already champion and for the rest of his career only fought the best. Great underrated career and fighter.
Kostya was an excellent fighter but he got knocked out in his "prime" and the best "prime" fighter he beat was Zab.
As for that 16 "world" champions stuff (they are alphabet holders). Yes it means he beat top rated fighters, however, i'm pretty certain loads of current top fighters will have similar numbers on their record.
So did mike tyson.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenster
So did lennox.
So did klitschko.
Again with the neurotics....
I don't doubt Tszyu was an incredibly good fighter... I just can't find a viable point of reference to compare him with the other fighters.
Yeah excellent fighters get beat in their prime. However, it has to be considered when you choose specific fighters to make a comparision with.Quote:
Originally Posted by THE PHILOSOPHERSo did mike tyson.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenster
So did lennox.
So did klitschko.
Kostya didn't avenge his loss as say Lewis did (even though Lewis is not on the list).
His only bad loss was to Phillips, a fight that he was WINNING up until the last couple of rounds where his terrible training habits and lack of activity (most people forget that he had only fought one round in a year) of the time cost him the fight after he ran out of gas. Still, after renewing his proper training he came back and didn't lose for the next eight years until his last fight at the age of 36 against Hatton in a brawl.
He had only fought one round in a year at the time of the Phillips fight and had fallen into shocking training habits well away from his proper boxing, speed and stamina training that he picked up again after that loss. Also, during his peak years as already mentioned he struggled to find willing opponents to take the high risk low reward fight shown in his activity during his best years and early career often fighting only twice a year, sometimes only once from as early as his fourteenth fight! Even before that he was only able to fight three times a year which would be a normal champions routine, instead of a young, up and coming prospect. I think that was one of the banes of his career and that inactivity finally caught up to him by the end of his career struggling with numerous injuries and having to postpone fights etc and by the end was only able to fight once a year for the last four years of his career.
Kostya Tszyu – beat Gonzales brutally and undefeated Judah
Joe Calzaghe- beat Eubanks, Kessler, Lacy, B Hop,
Wladimr Klitschko- unified and consistent champ
Vitali Kiltschko – durable but injuries let him down
Darius Michalczewski- avoided Roy Jones and beaten by Gonzales
Hardly really fair on the three you mentioned. Oscar was on a collision course with Tszyu, when Tszyu blew it by being knocked out by Phillips. One can't blame an ambitious young Oscar for skipping a fighter with no belt and a devastating recent KO defeat.Quote:
Originally Posted by THE PHILOSOPHER
Mosley jumped two weight divisions to fight his old mate Oscar for a fortune, for a belt. Can't fault that. Pacquiao did the same.
Mayweather only became a champion at 140lbs the same month Tszyu lost his belt to Hatton, so it wasn't like there was an overlap.
If I'm honest, all three are a country mile above anybody Tszyu fought, and I can't help but feel he would have been exposed against those three. I sometimes wonder if Tszyu knew it himself, which is why he cleaned up at 140lbs, when 147lbs was brimming with talent and dollars. Big fish, small pond.
So did Joe Louis, George Foreman and Lennox Lewis. Phillips was beaten by Millet so a rematch couldn't be made as planned. Tszyu was matched up with Miguel Angel Gonzalez (WBC lightweight champion for 5 years and defended it 9 times, his only loss before fighting Tszyu was to DLH) and Millett went on to fight Judah in 2000. Tszyu was the underdog in the Judah fight in 2001, Judah was then unbeaten and looked every bit as good as Floyd leading up to this fight. Tszyu actually ruined his career. His following 3 years after the Phillips loss were outstanding.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenster
Quote:
Originally Posted by THE PHILOSOPHER
Joe Cal... he was undefeated..and beat anyone who got in front of him. pssibly the most underated fighter in history, next to ricardo Lopez. I don't think i ever saw a guy go into a fight as the under-dog more than Cal and come out winning.
Vitali Klitsko... could easily be undefeated. I'd feel comfortable in putting my money on Vitali vs anyone in history... BUT, in the end, he did quit once and the fight was stopped against Lennox.
Wlad... Will go down as a better fighter than his brother, but Vitali's better... Wlad has ruled the heavyweight div for 10 years! People say theis is a poor div..i say Wlad and Vitali are that much better. than the rest.
Kostya Tszu... one of my favorite fighters. Rumors say that both DeLaHoya and Mosely skiped over the lt welter weight div just so they wouldn't have to face this guy. IMO,he underachieved.
DM... what's not to like about him.. tough as nails. but in this group, he comes up last..and that's no slight to a great fighter.
Rumours spread by people so lacking in boxing knowledge they miss the fact that Oscar was WBC light welterweight champ.Quote:
Originally Posted by bigstinkybugQuote:
Originally Posted by THE PHILOSOPHER
Kostya Tszu... one of my favorite fighters. Rumors say that both DeLaHoya and Mosely skiped over the lt welter weight div just so they wouldn't have to face this guy. IMO,he underachieved.
Tszyu's fans trot this hogwash out occasionally, ignoring the fact that their man is most culpable for big fights never happening. Do you really believe Oscar and Mosley looked for easier challenges after looking at their records...
DeLaHoya is fighting eveyone but doesn't fight THE MAN at welter, and u don't think he skipped over welter? DeLaHoya has even said he was worried with KT... and Mosely nevr fought him either? how does that happen?
De La Hoya-Tszyu was just about set. All Tszyu had to do was beat Vince Phillips. He did notQuote:
Originally Posted by bigstinkybugQuote:
Originally Posted by THE PHILOSOPHER
Kostya Tszu... one of my favorite fighters. Rumors say that both DeLaHoya and Mosely skiped over the lt welter weight div just so they wouldn't have to face this guy. IMO,he underachieved.
bump.
Ive never heard of delahoya vs KT coming close to happening...
Theres video of delahoya saying he didnt want to fight KT...
I like tszyu, i mean he did beat Roger Mayweather around a ring for 12 rounds. For that i am forever grateful...
Tszyu compiled an amateur record of 259-11. Was a 3x gold medallist too. Watch his fight with vernon forrest and undefeated judah and tell me he is not great!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFqzr4oMwZM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vw2_GkakB4A
Calzaghe and tszyu ruined fighters!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by THE THIRD MAN
I agree
Yeah Calzaghe ruined Mario Veit, that guy was destined for greatness until Jo Cal came along :(Quote:
Originally Posted by THE PHILOSOPHER
Yes, he beat the man twice just to make sure. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by AlthugzYeah Calzaghe ruined Mario Veit, that guy was destined for greatness until Jo Cal came along :(Quote:
Originally Posted by THE PHILOSOPHER
Funny....Quote:
Originally Posted by AlthugzYeah Calzaghe ruined Mario Veit, that guy was destined for greatness until Jo Cal came along :(Quote:
Originally Posted by THE PHILOSOPHER
It was a mandatory, and veit is mo worse than a truck load of bhops opponents....Robert allen!! I mean come on...really? 3 times?? This was the trilogy that made BHop an icon the world over, scintillating stuff. DVD extras include Dwyer's pre and post fight analysis.
Allen is a superstar in georgia, criminally underrated in louisiana...and lest we forget....
-kentucky derby winner 3 times in a row
-olympic gold medal polisher in 04
an inspiration to millions..well the population of stone mountain anyway.
At least veit actually beat some noteworthy names.
I have no idea what this post is about.Quote:
Originally Posted by bigstinkybug
You are not the only one.Quote:
Originally Posted by BobthepenI have no idea what this post is about.Quote:
Originally Posted by bigstinkybug
Calzaghe 1 tyzsu 2 vitali 3 wlad4 darius 5, joe unbeaten saw him ringside against Lacey awsome, tyzsu beat some great fighters, klitschos, not their fault, but no great fighters in their era, darius only b+ in my opinion!