Would anybody disagree.
Bad for the sport.
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Would anybody disagree.
Bad for the sport.
I think the Klitchkos probably qualify as superstars in Germany and Eastern Europe.Quote:
Originally Posted by porkypara
Otherwise, agreed. (I assume we're both including as a "superstar" requirement that the person has cross-over appeal/ is well-known by people who don't follow boxing at all.)
Agreed
The Klitschkos have mass appeal but are not global superstars.
Apart from the 4 already mentioned, I reckon the average sports fan wouldn't even be able to name any of the other top ten p4p active fighters today
the governing bodies, fighters and promoters should read this thread !
I'm not sure how atypical this is, though (at least post-WWII).
Who in the 90s was a true superstar? Tyson, Holyfield, De la Hoya, RJJ. Can't think of any others. I don't think Lennox Lewis was ever a recognizable name to non-boxing fans in the U.S.
80s: Tyson, SRL, and to a lesser extent Hagler, Hearns, JCC (and he's borderline outside of Latin America).
I may be missing a couple but I don't think there have ever been more than maybe a handful at a time during my lifetime.
Boxing cycles through its stars with crossover appeal. Honestly we as fans can blame ourselves at times. Those two specifically have caused us tunnel vision clamoring far too long for them to shut up and fight already. Then what do ya know, Mayweather gets a decent scrap from Cotto and makes news for all of the wrong reasons outside of the ring...and Manny arguably losses to JMM and then gets back handed by judges with Bradley.
I don't know. I've always thought of the match ups and actual fights the stars. What we call superstars or elite and what others "know"...casual fans...can be that way for a reason. Shit I still have a couple of friends ask about Jones Jr. You tell them yeh...he's top ranked and won his last fight and get "thats cause he's a bad ass" then ya tell them no...no...he's shot to hell then get a deer in a headlights look back..."hows that possible though"? Its frustrating.
One thing is certain and thats you cannot 'force' stardom. Its not manufactured and I think networks may be leaning toward that idea. Its natural...its promotion but man its so transparent at times. I put Gamboa, Rios, Berto, Canelo, a Broner among others who are or were taking some shortcuts and the powers that be giving them a wink & nod. I think Donaire considers himself a superstar but even he is almost short changing himself and just getting caught up in force feeding fans just how 'great' he is. Don't tell us...show up in top form and display it consistently. All this nonsense talk of 3,4,5 divisions or belts. Sergio Martinez is close with crossover and ability and if he trumps Chavez part deaux it would go along way.
I don't care how big a name you are or how big you think you deserve to be, just give me good fights. I'll take two journeymen in an 6 round war over some spoiled diva whipping a part time line cook for some trinket anyday of the week. Alot of the time you really don't know where or who will produce them until we're asking where'd this dude come from? Alright, coffee induced ramble fini :-X
True, but someone else will come along to fill their shoes as long as there's big money to be made.Quote:
Originally Posted by porkypara
This is true, to an extent. As far a general appeal this is true. As far as the boxing public is concerned there's guys like Broner, Donaire, Martinez and such. For your purposes, I expect you mean mainstream. To that I would agree. Goldenboy made a push for Ortiz and failed.
You know, this is a great point. This is a truth.Quote:
Originally Posted by shza
The way it's going, though; boxing has less and less superstars as years go by. No doubt other will come after Manny and Floyd, but they're getting fewer and far between. Other sports are grabbing them with less chance of brain trauma and depression. It's a fact.
Ebbs and flows, that's boxing we must remember in some country's there fighters are superstars, to them. But at this moment in time, superstars in boxing are a bit thin on the ground.;)Quote:
Originally Posted by porkypara
Pac is only a superstar in his homeland and he is almost done. He has lost his last 2 IMO. A man of diminshing returns.
Amir Khan says he is a superstar :D
I'm with you on Pac being overrated, but he qualifies as a superstar outside of the Phillipines for sure. I know plenty of people who know nothing about boxing who know Pacquiao's name (along with Mayweather, Ali, Foreman, Tyson, and Frazier). He's been in Nike and Hennessy commercials in the US.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gandalf
I say I'm good looking ,from 300yards away.;DQuote:
Originally Posted by rjj tszyu
Klits are evergreen-bestsellers. :la:
Carl Froch definatley is.
Carl Froch is one of the most deserving of being a superstar in the sport today. His style and will to fight ANYONE should have made him more popular than many of his British counterparts past and present but his early management was terrible to say the least. He was always an action fighter who should have been easy to sell to the public but he never made papers really until he was already a world champion. Say what you want about Warren but he made sure his fighters were in the public eye before they reached anywhere near that level. Remember the build up for Hatton vs Tszyu? That was the kind of build up Carl Froch should have been getting for his early world title fights. I'm just glad he's starting to get some recognition now although I think he's deserving of far more!Quote:
Originally Posted by Tam Seddon
In the U.K, nobody knew who De La Hoya or Roy Jones were unless you were a boxing fan. Superstars with true global appeal are always few and far between.Quote:
Originally Posted by shza
Bernard Hopkins is/was also a superstar.
Is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hulk
I don't think so. Within the sport sure. But ask someone who doesn't follow boxing and the OP is absolutely right that PAC and Mayweather are the only names he/she has any chance of knowing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tam SeddonIs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hulk
Really? I find that hard to believe w/r/t De la Hoya. He was a much bigger name than Mayweather or PAC currently are. Still is, actually.Quote:
Originally Posted by AlthugzIn the U.K, nobody knew who De La Hoya or Roy Jones were unless you were a boxing fan. Superstars with true global appeal are always few and far between.Quote:
Originally Posted by shza
I always considered my mum a good test as to whether someone is a sporting superstarQuote:
Originally Posted by porkypara
Would my mum know who Manny Pacquio is ? NO
Would my mum know who Floyd Mayweather is ? NO
Would my mum know who Mike Tyson is ? YES
Ali ? Yes
Sugar Ray Leonard ? Yes
Lennox Lewis ? Yes
Duran ? Yes
So it's debateable if either are true sporting superstars ?
superstar in my eyes :)Quote:
Originally Posted by shzaI don't think so. Within the sport sure. But ask someone who doesn't follow boxing and the OP is absolutely right that PAC and Mayweather are the only names he/she has any chance of knowing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tam SeddonIs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hulk
Jeez, your mum is well up on her boxing. My mum might get Ali, and not for his antics in the ring, but for being on Parkie numerous times.Quote:
Originally Posted by denilson200I always considered my mum a good test as to whether someone is a sporting superstarQuote:
Originally Posted by porkypara
Would my mum know who Manny Pacquio is ? NO
Would my mum know who Floyd Mayweather is ? NO
Would my mum know who Mike Tyson is ? YES
Ali ? Yes
Sugar Ray Leonard ? Yes
Lennox Lewis ? Yes
Duran ? Yes
So it's debateable if either are true sporting superstars ?
Mine too. I put is/was as I'm not sure if Bernard will continue fighting, but I suspect he will.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tam Seddonsuperstar in my eyes :)Quote:
Originally Posted by shzaI don't think so. Within the sport sure. But ask someone who doesn't follow boxing and the OP is absolutely right that PAC and Mayweather are the only names he/she has any chance of knowing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tam SeddonIs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hulk
I've known casual fans who know who Bernard Hopkins is, very casual fans even.
Disagree.Quote:
Originally Posted by porkypara
Sergio Martinez is quite a super star.
Amir Khan, Carl Froch, Klitschko brothers are all quite famous.
The average American has no idea who any of those people are, I assure you. *Maybe* the Klitchkos would ring a bell if you gave enough context. The others, no way. I like all of those fighters (particularly Martinez) but none of them can even headline a PPV fight.Quote:
Originally Posted by GaydarbekStraightDisagree.Quote:
Originally Posted by porkypara
Sergio Martinez is quite a super star.
Amir Khan, Carl Froch, Klitschko brothers are all quite famous.
Does the average American have a clue of who Floyd Mayweather is, or better still, Manny Pacquiao?Quote:
Originally Posted by shzaThe average American has no idea who any of those people are, I assure you. *Maybe* the Klitchkos would ring a bell if you gave enough context. The others, no way. I like all of those fighters (particularly Martinez) but none of them can even headline a PPV fight.Quote:
Originally Posted by GaydarbekStraightDisagree.Quote:
Originally Posted by porkypara
Sergio Martinez is quite a super star.
Amir Khan, Carl Froch, Klitschko brothers are all quite famous.
Yes, actually. Plenty of people I work with who have not seen a fight in the last 20 years know who Mayweather is and know that he is considered the best today. They would have absolutely no idea who any of the people you mentioned is -- except possibly the Klitchkos. Look, Mayweather is the consensus best fighter in the sport. He was on Dancing with the Stars and was in Wrestle Mania. He got coverage for spouting off about Jeremy Lin. He got coverage for going to jail. He had f'ing Justin Beiber as part of his entourage for the Cotto fight. He's a mainstream figure. People who know nothing about the sport know the name.Quote:
Originally Posted by GaydarbekStraightDoes the average American have a clue of who Floyd Mayweather is, or better still, Manny Pacquiao?Quote:
Originally Posted by shzaThe average American has no idea who any of those people are, I assure you. *Maybe* the Klitchkos would ring a bell if you gave enough context. The others, no way. I like all of those fighters (particularly Martinez) but none of them can even headline a PPV fight.Quote:
Originally Posted by GaydarbekStraightDisagree.Quote:
Originally Posted by porkypara
Sergio Martinez is quite a super star.
Amir Khan, Carl Froch, Klitschko brothers are all quite famous.
Manny is slightly less recognizable but he is on Nike and Hennessy commercials shown on TV in the states. He makes appearances with candidates running for American political offices (as absurd as that is). He's mainstream.
YES !Quote:
Originally Posted by shzaYes, actually. Plenty of people I work with who have not seen a fight in the last 20 years know who Mayweather is and know that he is considered the best today. They would have absolutely no idea who any of the people you mentioned is -- except possibly the Klitchkos. Look, Mayweather is the consensus best fighter in the sport. He was on Dancing with the Stars and was in Wrestle Mania. He got coverage for spouting off about Jeremy Lin. He got coverage for going to jail. He had f'ing Justin Beiber as part of his entourage for the Cotto fight. He's a mainstream figure. People who know nothing about the sport know the name.Quote:
Originally Posted by GaydarbekStraightDoes the average American have a clue of who Floyd Mayweather is, or better still, Manny Pacquiao?Quote:
Originally Posted by shzaThe average American has no idea who any of those people are, I assure you. *Maybe* the Klitchkos would ring a bell if you gave enough context. The others, no way. I like all of those fighters (particularly Martinez) but none of them can even headline a PPV fight.Quote:
Originally Posted by GaydarbekStraightDisagree.Quote:
Originally Posted by porkypara
Sergio Martinez is quite a super star.
Amir Khan, Carl Froch, Klitschko brothers are all quite famous.
Manny is slightly less recognizable but he is on Nike and Hennessy commercials shown on TV in the states. He makes appearances with candidates running for American political offices (as absurd as that is). He's mainstream.
Most everyone knows who Floyd and Manny are.
Boxing being off the mainstream channel hurts boxing even with cable tv more popular. Having various titles and promoters not engaging their fighters like Manny v Floyd does not help either. I also think the quality is not as good but as Spicoli says that could be due to the cycle and some talent and competition will come in good time. Still having mass global appeal to non-boxing fans is still very rare.
In the UK I am not so sure that most non boxing fans would know who Mayweather and Pacquiao are, when Hatton fought them and they were on the sports news maybe , but now more Brits know who Khan is. Non boxing fans in the UK would have known Henry Cooper, John Conteh, Frank Bruno etc in the past because if their crossover appeal, but they would have also recognised Ali,SRL and Duran because they were characters and huge sporting superstars in an era when there was no premiership and fewer sports people with sponsorship deals and a TV presence. I don't think it will ever be the same again. The world has changed and it ain't going back.
No coincidence that Bruno, McGuigan, Benn/Eubanks/Watson were superstars because of mainstream TV exposure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenbeanz