We had a wild debate at work on who played a bigger part in winning ww2. I want to hear what you guys think before I add my two cents.
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We had a wild debate at work on who played a bigger part in winning ww2. I want to hear what you guys think before I add my two cents.
Banks.
Well I don't think there is much argument regarding the Pacific theater but the European is tougher. If you believe that Russia could have withstood the Wermacht invasion and regrouped to counter attack w/o allied support and the eventual second front then the answer is hands down Russia. Even if you don't believe that was possible the USSR sacrificed and accomplished a tremendous more than the allied front. If Hitler never invades Russia the world becomes a very different place.
Russia and the US are the biggest winner; Russia suffered a staggering beatdown but Yalta an Pozdam reunions granted them wayyy more territories than when the war began, the US for all the contracts to rebuild everything that allowed them to kick up their economy to an uncanny level. As for invasion, if Germany would have been more successful on the russian front, There would have been no Hiroshima and no NAgasaki, probably a Berlin and a Frankfurt or something like that, winner would be on the same side, irradiated ruins would have been located otherwise.Quote:
Originally Posted by VictorCharlie
Nameless,
I didn't think the thread starter was asking who came out the best but rather who played the biggest role in winning the war.
The winners of the economic War, was Germany since WW2 they have had very large amounts of
money pumped into there country. This Country done so and the USA, also we have not long finished
paying back the USA, what we had off them in WW2.
So the USA and GB, paid the price with lives and money are we winners but at what cost.!
GREAT BRITAIN and our European Allies and then the U.S.A
I think that without the stupid invasion of the USSR, Hitler would have mopped up Europe and also Britain before the Americans entered the frame. The Eastern Front tied down two thirds of the German Army and caused three quarters of total German military casualites.
The Soviet Union would eventually have won their war with Germany on their own, though this would have been at a price even more terrible that it actually was.
Quote:
Originally Posted by VictorCharlie
Sorry for the confusion,
Then I say the Soviets hands down, they did contained around 60% of the Germans, including their 2 best S.S divisions, the Liebenstandarde and the Totenkopf, took around 25 millions of casualties (even though a part of that is debatable as it comes from Stalin's madness) and got half of their land furrowed.
need to define terms of winning & roleQuote:
Originally Posted by mrbig1
Russia, USA then Captain America.
I agree and without England and the odd resistance in Europe, Germany would have been unstoppable by the time Japan turned on USA. The USA would have had a two headed monster to deal with and maybe on the home front; getting it from the east and west coasts if they'd stayed out of it for any longer.Quote:
Originally Posted by X
So really it would have taken in reality about 6 H bombs instead of just the two to seal them all up.
Hitler was a total dickhead and thank God nature stopped them in Russia too as well as some very good Ceck snipers on the way there as well.
Churchill was a brilliant tactician, and got plastic blow up tanks and blow up aircraft made in the hundreds of thousands and tied them down into the fields so that the German reconnaissance planes came back with photos of lines and lines of heavy munitions all facing Germany.
This bought us time to make them for real and we worked day and night and doubled Germanys output in readiness! Brilliant.
If it wasnt for the SAS in its beginnings through David Stirling down in Nth Africa, Rommel would have rolled through there close to unchallenged too.They shut those pricks down from behind their own lines (which was unheard of back then) all of a night, then would sleep under camouflaged tarps out in the baking desert during the daytime then hit their fuel dumps and aircraft again each a night.
They were hell on wheels literally to the Germans.Brilliant
If it wasnt also for the british girls and guys who broke the German secret codes used on shipping, then we would not of got as many of their carriers and destroyers or had been able to give them false information and send them into traps either. They won the navys battles as much as the men did. Brilliant.
England kept cutting off their limbs until finally others realized the immensity of it and joined in.
Sorry about this; But also knowing Japan was about to have a shot a Pearl Harbour and not saying anything at all Churchill again.Brilliant.
(but sorry about that, it really was the only way the USA would be drawn in to it all.
Thank fuck for England,if they hadnt of fought like they did on every front that they could manage then the Germans would have been coming out of Ireland at the USA by the time they'd realized the size of what was coming,that and Japan from the other side and Hitler probably would secured the northern boarders and just saved Russia till last.
Yeah thank God he was moved to do it when he did and froze half his men to death got bogged down and weakened the rest.Quote:
Originally Posted by VictorCharlie
From what I know, if Hitler didn't invade Russia it just would have been a matter of time until the USSR attacked Germany. They were rapidly modernizing their army and would never again have been as weak as they were when Germany attacked.Quote:
Originally Posted by VictorCharlie
Russia obviously paid the highest price in the war, but I'm not sure how they would have faired without the massive support provided to them by the Americans. That's not to say that the Chinese and Commonwealth countries didn't play very important roles, but I think the Russians and the Americans played the most important roles.
Liking the answers guys. I'm nowhere near an expert, but there is an excellent quote from somewhere or other which says; the war was won with American money, British brains, and Russian blood. The industrial complex spurred on by entering the European theatre more or less brought the USA out of the great depression, the Brits were brilliant tactically and made huge ground breaking German codes etc, and as has been said Russia sacrificed and accounted for far more lives lost on either side than all other nations combined if I'm not mistaken. I'm not sure whether Russia even could've realistically invaded Germany in time to alter the gains it would have otherwise made though CFH. No doubt it they would have been at war eventually, but so much of the German casualties occured merely by launching that scale of a land invasion and on behalf of the climate etc. Slash and burn techniques and the like were devestating and instrumental in losing the Russian front.
Just as well we all put in and won or it would be a humorless world. They aren't very jokey at the best of times.
Quite simply all of us. Think of the responses and where you'll walk tomorrow doing the most common things. Brits, Yanks, Aussies, Russian, Philippines on and on and on...and a boat load of Canadians ;D Seriously everyone payed a toll, Brits and American at the forfront throughout no doubt. Also a great point in Russia is always brought up, the what if and hypothetical... lets say Japan doesn't declare war of the U.S. They-we also had a two front conflict going. WWII was not confined to one theater and certainly not a singular victor.
In respect of all the brave people who lost their lives , the simple answer to you your question is -
The allied forces won the war.
To be specific would be very disrespectful to those who fell.
The U.S. won the war against Japan hands down. In Europe it was the USSR, Great Britain, and the U.S. in that order. 80% of all Germens killed was on the Eastern front. Great Britain fought Germany alone for 2 years before they had any help. True the U.S. supplies were a great help. By the time the U.S. set foot on Europe in July of 43. The Battles of El Alamein, Stalingrad, and Kursk were already over. I will say that the U.S. and Royal Air force played a major roll in the war. My father and all his brothers as well as my father in law fought during the war. I'm not trying to get people mad. Just telling the truth. People in America believe we won the war all by ourselves. These are the same people who believe there is a differents between Obama and Romney. God help us.
I'm pretty skeptical that w/o US entry into the European theater that the UK makes it successfully into western Europe by D-Day if ever.
In terms of overall sacrifice and human manpower Russia gets the nod, that's not to say that the U.S./Canada and Britain didn't make huge contributions, especially in regards to logistics and or resources. Keep in mind too, as far as "winning" WWII, unlike Russia, the U.S./Canada and Britain et al, had Japan to deal with as well as Germany.Quote:
Originally Posted by mrbig1
Im thinking more on this and thank God for America . and their brave young men who fought the Japanese out on the waters of the Philippines etc as well as everywhere else.These boys were 18 to 20 something and gave it their all. All for our freedom at their loss.
The ones out in the Pacific were the bravest of the brave and they saw in front of them a fleet of ships that outnumbered them near on three to one something like 27 ships verses 7 ships and the sizes were against them also with leading the Japanese craft at three times the literal size of their little destroyers. They were caught off guard by a great Japanese ruse and most of the American fleet had sailed out after a fleet of Japanese vessels and left the port to a skeleton crew of small craft to guard it. Then the 2nd Japanese fleet sailed in from a different route from behind islands through narrow straights etc. These brave men in seven or so small destroyers had weapons that were three times less the gauge of the Japanese craft they were facing and the Japanese were firing at them for about 6 miniutes without return fire before they could get into range. They knew but still went for it. The Japanese made a mistake and had shells that were amour piercing and not exploding on impact so they rained on and around the Americans as they came into range punching holes clean through our vessels but the Americans kept going and got into range and shot torpedoes at the formation even after seeing their own lead destroyer take massive hits and loose all the towers off its decks etc the rest went for it too and got into range and fired torpedoes into the lead vessels. They saved the port saved a massive loss and prevented them getting to fuel and oil etc.
This sort of bravery happened in every theater all over the globe God bless them all,cause if it wasnt for them, we would all be slaves in a terrible world for us but a better one for Germany and her allies. ;)
So what ever you think if you live free from oppression.. God bless the Americans that helped you maintain it and continue to do so.
We wouldnt have won without them.
You guys dealt with Japan better than we (Australia) did, they would have consumed us eventually if it wasn't for Americas involvement.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mars_axIn terms of overall sacrifice and human manpower Russia gets the nod, that's not to say that the U.S./Canada and Britain didn't make huge contributions, especially in regards to logistics and or resources. Keep in mind too, as far as "winning" WWII, unlike Russia, the U.S./Canada and Britain et al, had Japan to deal with as well as Germany.Quote:
Originally Posted by mrbig1
@Andre,Quote:
Originally Posted by AndreYou guys dealt with Japan better than we (Australia) did, they would have consumed us eventually if it wasn't for Americas involvement.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mars_axIn terms of overall sacrifice and human manpower Russia gets the nod, that's not to say that the U.S./Canada and Britain didn't make huge contributions, especially in regards to logistics and or resources. Keep in mind too, as far as "winning" WWII, unlike Russia, the U.S./Canada and Britain et al, had Japan to deal with as well as Germany.Quote:
Originally Posted by mrbig1
I was a U.S. Air Force brat who was born in Japan in 1948. The Japanese were fanatical soldiers, I grew up hearing about and studying them. The turning point in the war with Japan was at Midway and the destruction of much of the Japanese Navy. Were it not for the A-bomb however, which forced Japan to surrender, the war could have dragged on for years.
Thank-you for showing your appreciation and gratitude for American involvement, it's nice to hear every now and then. I had the personal fortune to have grown up around and/or known many of those WWII Vets, who fought in the Pacific or all the way from Normandy to the Battle of the Bulge, and into Germany. Including my father, and I don't think there was ever a finer group of men and role models on the face of the Earth.
Thats cool :cool:.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mars_ax@Andre ,Quote:
Originally Posted by AndreYou guys dealt with Japan better than we (Australia) did, they would have consumed us eventually if it wasn't for Americas involvement.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mars_axIn terms of overall sacrifice and human manpower Russia gets the nod, that's not to say that the U.S./Canada and Britain didn't make huge contributions, especially in regards to logistics and or resources. Keep in mind too, as far as "winning" WWII, unlike Russia, the U.S./Canada and Britain et al, had Japan to deal with as well as Germany.Quote:
Originally Posted by mrbig1
I was U.S. Air Force brat who was born in Japan in 1948. The Japanese were fanatical soldiers, I grew up hearing about and studying them. The turning point in the war with Japan was at Midway and the destruction of much of the Japanese Navy. Were it not for the A-bomb however, which forced Japan to surrender, the war could have dragged on for years.
Thank-you for showing your appreciation and gratitude for American involvement, it's nice to hear every now and then. I had the personal fortune to have grown up around and/or known many of those WWII Vets, who fought in the Pacific or all the way from Normandy to the Battle of the Bulge, and into Germany. Including my father, and I don't think there was ever a finer group of men and role models on the face of the Earth.
My Grandfather on my dads side was a rear gunner in a Lancaster bomber and my other one was a truck driver in Saudi,who died later in life from silicosis of the lungs from all the dust he breathed. (which is ironic considering all of the stonemasons in the family were through my dads side and thats what they recon gets us eventually but it hasnt got one of us yet. :p
My dad was a lifer in the USAF and among other things flew in bombing missions over Germany during WWII, he retired somewhere around 1965 after 20+ years of service. I can recall him putting his dress uniform on a few times a year or 2 before he retired for parades and such, it was a humbling experience seeing all the decorations and metals. Dad passed away in 1982, the military had taken it's toll, he was only 62.
I joined the USAF in 1968 and my wife joined the Navy in 1972 (before we got married) we're both Vietnam era vets, but neither one of us actually went to 'Nam. (I can't say I miss going) :-X
I think Hitler blew it more than anyone else won it. Hitler really didn't need to declare war on America and he really didn't need to invade Russia at the point he did. He had a peace treaty drawn up and the Soviets were really not ready for war as the initial results proved. Russia was not a serious threat to Germany at the time. Hitler seemed like such an impatient man and in such a hurry to carry out his mental ambitions and as a consequence it was too much too soon and all the elements he was raging against joined together and as a team picked him apart.
There are different ways of measuring who won, but I don't think it really matters as every ally played a significant role. The Brits were the first to mount a meaningful resistance, the Russians sacrificed tens of millions, and America was able to kick start its military industrial complex.
The lesson learned from the Hitler experience was that you need to dominate in a different way to that employed by Hitler. No less extreme, but to carefully pinpoint where you will invade, apply economic force, pretend that you are the good guy. In reality it is just a more subtle version of fascism.
You know it's true, Canada is offen left out or forgotten about. God bless them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spicoli
My Father was Canadian, He was there at Dunkirk when the 1st Shot was Fired. When the 2nd Shot was Fired He was back at Dover.;D
The Allies, it was a team effort
That is very true and there are many who are often not instantly thought of when using the termQuote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong
The Aussies
The Kokoda Track | Australians in World War II | The Pacific War
The Gurkhas
1939-45 World War II
also the resistance in Europe and individuals like Pielecki without whom the Polish government may not have convinced the allies that the Holocaust was happening
Witold Pilecki - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Canadians as well! They took a heavy toll on D-Day.Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenbeanzThat is very true and there are many who are often not instantly thought of when using the termQuote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong
The Aussies
The Kokoda Track | Australians in World War II | The Pacific War
The Gurkhas
1939-45 World War II
also the resistance in Europe and individuals like Pielecki without whom the Polish government may not have convinced the allies that the Holocaust was happening
Witold Pilecki - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Hard to say who won WW2, all the allies played a huge part in the victory,
I would say Germany lost the war as soon as they attacked Russia.
Canadians also fought very well in the battle of Caen.Quote:
Originally Posted by El KabongCanadians as well! They took a heavy toll on D-Day.Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenbeanzThat is very true and there are many who are often not instantly thought of when using the termQuote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong
The Aussies
The Kokoda Track | Australians in World War II | The Pacific War
The Gurkhas
1939-45 World War II
also the resistance in Europe and individuals like Pielecki without whom the Polish government may not have convinced the allies that the Holocaust was happening
Witold Pilecki - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
We won it.
My father in law used to have a shot at me for being English he has distant German heritage but thought of himself as pure bred Aussie from about 3 generations.
He'd be watching the cricket and say things like bloody pommies this bloody pommies that, then look at me wistfully.
I used to say,"Oh well dont worry, you lot didnt do too bad mate, you came second in two world wars ;)