Red Staters (and More) Already Talking Secession After Obama Victory | Alternet
I say.... "Let them."
:cool:
Printable View
Red Staters (and More) Already Talking Secession After Obama Victory | Alternet
I say.... "Let them."
:cool:
Secession is a stupid thing to do, but the attitude of "let them" doesn't do much for unity now does it? I will say this is an opportunity that Obama has to try and cross the party lines and do what he said he was going to do "heal America"....his words.
He might not do it with the people signing these petitions but he may be able to do better on this fiscal cliff or in some other area, but the deal is he has to be President of 100% of the country and a lot of people feel he hasn't done that yet (not saying I'm one) just saying he could be a better politician than this community organizer us vs them bullcrap
Quote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong
:o
I'm speechless (for once).
And I also agree.
For the record, I agree the secession talk is pure B.S., and would serve no good.
But it pisses me off to see enough talk about this that it actually makes the news.
It's a sad commentary on some people's mentality in today's society.
Hmmm speechless.... I like that side of you
Quote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong
You'd miss me after a while.
I think secessionist talk is silly but I don't find it surprising. As a nation we are becoming less and less homogeneous in all aspects of culture and policy while having more and more broad national policies. It seems pretty normal to me for portions of this country to feel completely disconnected from others. With people in California getting up in arms over Wisconsin labor laws, people in Pennsylvania wringing their hands over Arizona immigration laws, someone in Michigan bitching about Florida gun laws and people in Texas talking about what Bloomberg is going to ban next, what we really need is for people to mind their own damn business and for the feds to respect the 10th amendment.
This would work out well for all the maker blue states whose tax money gets transferred to all those moocher red states. You could have a Confederacy of takers who'd then have to fend for themselves and a union of makers who'd be much better off.
There's no need to worry, even Texas is going to become Democratic soon :Quote:
Originally Posted by VictorCharlie
Could Texas Become a Blue State? : The New Yorker
It wasn't too long ago that Texas had a Democrat Governor, and I wouldn't doubt that it could be turned into a Blue State with certain policies. You get more Mexicans in, you get them hooked on the government and boom they're Democrats just like that. I do think Marco Rubio will run for President in 2016 and he'll have a very good shot judging by his speech at the RNC which was very powerful and well delivered. Plus after 8 years of Obama just like after 8 years of Clinton and W the American people will grow tired of unfulfilled promises, scandal (and that will be coming, it always does), and just an over all weariness of dealing with 1 party in charge.
As for the sucession talk, I think states should have the right to leave without any military being involved because the United States is a voluntary Union and not a perpetual Union (at least it was until the War between the States). The first states that wanted to suceed were actually those in the northeast that feared the Louisiana Purchase would sap their political power, but with time those fears were put to rest. All this being said, I highly doubt the majority of any state would choose to leave this Union. A couple thousand names on a petition doesn't mean much to me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong
Is that why you think Mexicans risk arrest, deportation, or worse by trying to cross the border (albeit illegally) into the U.S.? To get "hooked on the government"? Is that what you think Mexicans who enter the U.S. legally are after? To get "hooked on the government"?
Wow...
I'm not sure what you think soon is. It is possible for a shift but neither you nor the author seem to be all that familiar with Mexican culture in Texas. I think to count the Hispanic vote in Texas as a foregone conclusion for the Dems is pretty ignorant. It could swing that way but once the issue of immigration is put to bed there won't be a divisve issue to leverage. If the GOP steps on their dick on immigration then they will have a serious problem on the horizon. If they are able to provide a coherent non-antagonistic message then I'd expect a return to Bush type voting numbers for the Hispanics in Texas. Culturally Hispanics in Texas are very family oriented, religious, hard working and have a strong entrepeneurship streak. These qualities aren't a gimme for either party but are similar to other GOP voting blocks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirkland LaingThere's no need to worry, even Texas is going to become Democratic soon :Quote:
Originally Posted by VictorCharlie
Could Texas Become a Blue State? : The New Yorker
Quote:
Originally Posted by VictorCharlieI'm not sure what you think soon is. It is possible for a shift but neither you nor the author seem to be all that familiar with Mexican culture in Texas. I think to count the Hispanic vote in Texas as a foregone conclusion for the Dems is pretty ignorant. It could swing that way but once the issue of immigration is put to bed there won't be a divisve issue to leverage. If the GOP steps on their dick on immigration then they will have a serious problem on the horizon. If they are able to provide a coherent non-antagonistic message then I'd expect a return to Bush type voting numbers for the Hispanics in Texas. Culturally Hispanics in Texas are very family oriented, religious, hard working and have a strong entrepeneurship streak. These qualities aren't a gimme for either party but are similar to other GOP voting blocks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirkland LaingThere's no need to worry, even Texas is going to become Democratic soon :Quote:
Originally Posted by VictorCharlie
Could Texas Become a Blue State? : The New Yorker
Not according to Lyle.
He says Mexicans cross the border to get "hooked on the government."
I spent my summers in college working construction and typically was the lone gringo on an all Mexican concrete crew. Very hard working and warm people. I don't think the American entitlement malaise kicks in until a few generations have lived here but this is in no way specific to Hispanics. I know a lot of lazy white folk that need to get off their ass and get a job.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpAOwJvTOio
....well it's worked for other minorities hasn't it Tito?
100% agreed with that. This "entitlement malaise" is a state of mind & a state of being not a color of skin. I know plenty of worthless white people...not to point fingers or anything but they seem to all vote Democrat (or wish to vote Socialist, yes that's what they want) for some reason or another.Quote:
Originally Posted by VictorCharlie
I have worked with legals and illegals before, they are people just like anyone else (and sure you can feel free to take that out of context if you like). They can be good, bad, indifferent, hardworking or lazy, but once you get the idea that you can vote yourself "free stuff" its difficult to break that habit. And the Republicans aren't offering "free stuff", they offer opportunity and that's what America was built on.
You know.... a woman running over her husband because he didn't vote against Obama is one thing.
But this talk of secession by some butthurt states?? It's freaking ridiculous.
And YET..... secession talk is child's play compared to THIS:
Coal company fires 150 workers in response to Obama re-election - Business on NBCNews.com
You have GOT to be fucking KIDDING ME!!!
:mad:
The reaction to Obama's reelection has been unprecedented. States talking of recession... companies laying off employees in some sort of sick, twisted, vengeful manner... etc, etc, etc.
Seriously, how is a President supposed to get a fair shake in an attempt to direct the country on the path to prosperity? The President is calling for unity, and he's got half the country trying to defect. WTF is wrong with people nowadays?
Lyle, I'm sure you'll have some witty response as to why all of this is ok... but it still reeks to the rest of us. WTF is this?
Seriously.
Whatever happened to the democratic process? You have elections... the people vote for their candidate... the candidate with the most electoral votes wins... the country MOVES ON. It's been this way since the Stone Age. Why the epic butthurt... to paraphrase @Youngblood ?
Is any of this supposed to help fix the country? I thought the U.S. was bigger than that. You know that TV commercial where the white guy named Michael Jordan gets a bunch of disappointed "oh"s from pizza delivery guys, restaurantiers, limo drivers... who were expecting the "real" Michael?
Well.... that's about the same reaction the rest of the world must be having to these silly, stupid antics by the butthurt rightists.
"Oh."
It's all quite tragic.
America is a messed up place and rather than uniting on the issues that matter you have a bunch of muppets making the most oddball proclamations and acting in quite bizarre ways.
It just makes me laugh really, but I know I shouldn't.
Only a few thousand signatures? Get back to me when it's a few million and it's seriously being discussed by those state's legislatures. This is chicken little the sky is falling stuff.
It's not me and it's not the author, it's top GOP officials in Texas who are saying this. They're saying it's a foregone conclusion. I'm sure you read the article. I know Lyle didn't as it contains a lot more than 140 characters. There's also this, by a Texas newspaper that says Democrats are currently shaving five and a half points off the Republican majority every four years and will win by 2024.Quote:
Originally Posted by VictorCharlieI'm not sure what you think soon is. It is possible for a shift but neither you nor the author seem to be all that familiar with Mexican culture in Texas. I think to count the Hispanic vote in Texas as a foregone conclusion for the Dems is pretty ignorant. It could swing that way but once the issue of immigration is put to bed there won't be a divisve issue to leverage. If the GOP steps on their dick on immigration then they will have a serious problem on the horizon. If they are able to provide a coherent non-antagonistic message then I'd expect a return to Bush type voting numbers for the Hispanics in Texas. Culturally Hispanics in Texas are very family oriented, religious, hard working and have a strong entrepeneurship streak. These qualities aren't a gimme for either party but are similar to other GOP voting blocks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirkland LaingThere's no need to worry, even Texas is going to become Democratic soon :Quote:
Originally Posted by VictorCharlie
Could Texas Become a Blue State? : The New Yorker
Exclusive analysis: If trends hold, Texas will be a toss-up state by 2024 | Texas on the Potomac | a Chron.com blog
Jeb Bush says Texas will be a blue state in four years. That's obviously going to make a huge difference at national level but also at state level as Tejanos vote for better local services and tax increases to pay for them. ¿As a Tejano, how does that make you feel? ¿Would you think about moving to another state?
Anyway, Texas and all of the southern states will be voting Democratic in the next presidential election. We're going to fix it so that the GOP can't get back in and fuck the economy up ever again.
I think that Cruz and the like are doing a lot of handwringing over the election. Who cares what Jeb Bush thinks either? How is he an authority on Texas voting. The guy has nothign to do with politics in Texas. I think the Texas GOP see the importance in not antagonizing our Hispanic population and are vastly overstating the issue in hopes to change the message. I think Dems in Texas a getting excited that possibly they won't be a complete after thought in the Lone Star state and want to promote some marginal gains. I seriously doubt that Texas votes blue in 2016 regardless of what happens politically and even if your suggested scenario comes true I have no intention of leaving Texas (unless the Army tells me to). The best thing about Texas is we have a weak Governor and our legislation only meets every 2 years. GOP or Dem they don't get a lot of opportunity to screw things up. People here tend to be a Texan first regardless of political affiliation so even a blue Texas won't look anything like the failures you see in other blue states. I'll say it again though, you are counting your eggs before they have hatced to assume a definitive Hispanic voting block for the Dems moving forward or to assume that Texas Democrats closely resemble the national party.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirkland LaingIt's not me and it's not the author, it's top GOP officials in Texas who are saying this. They're saying it's a foregone conclusion. I'm sure you read the article. I know Lyle didn't as it contains a lot more than 140 characters. There's also this, by a Texas newspaper that says Democrats are currently shaving five and a half points off the Republican majority every four years and will win by 2024.Quote:
Originally Posted by VictorCharlieI'm not sure what you think soon is. It is possible for a shift but neither you nor the author seem to be all that familiar with Mexican culture in Texas. I think to count the Hispanic vote in Texas as a foregone conclusion for the Dems is pretty ignorant. It could swing that way but once the issue of immigration is put to bed there won't be a divisve issue to leverage. If the GOP steps on their dick on immigration then they will have a serious problem on the horizon. If they are able to provide a coherent non-antagonistic message then I'd expect a return to Bush type voting numbers for the Hispanics in Texas. Culturally Hispanics in Texas are very family oriented, religious, hard working and have a strong entrepeneurship streak. These qualities aren't a gimme for either party but are similar to other GOP voting blocks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirkland LaingThere's no need to worry, even Texas is going to become Democratic soon :Quote:
Originally Posted by VictorCharlie
Could Texas Become a Blue State? : The New Yorker
Exclusive analysis: If trends hold, Texas will be a toss-up state by 2024 | Texas on the Potomac | a Chron.com blog
Jeb Bush says Texas will be a blue state in four years. That's obviously going to make a huge difference at national level but also at state level as Tejanos vote for better local services and tax increases to pay for them. ¿As a Tejano, how does that make you feel? ¿Would you think about moving to another state?
Lightpole? :-)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpTIhyMa-NwQuote:
Originally Posted by TitoFan
Obama said he was going to bankrupt the coal industry. "If someone wants to build a coal powered plant they can, but it will bankrupt them" his own words, his own policies.....don't act surprised when he told everyone what he was going to do and the coal company is just preparing for Obama to make good on his promises.
I think these guys know what they're talking about. I'm no expert on Texas politics and demographics but I'm willing to take the word of a GOP Senator and the chairman of the Texas GOP when they say Texas becoming Democratic is a foregone conclusion.Quote:
Originally Posted by VictorCharlieI think that Cruz and the like are doing a lot of handwringing over the election. Who cares what Jeb Bush thinks either? How is he an authority on Texas voting. The guy has nothign to do with politics in Texas. I think the Texas GOP see the importance in not antagonizing our Hispanic population and are vastly overstating the issue in hopes to change the message. I think Dems in Texas a getting excited that possibly they won't be a complete after thought in the Lone Star state and want to promote some marginal gains. I seriously doubt that Texas votes blue in 2016 regardless of what happens politically and even if your suggested scenario comes true I have no intention of leaving Texas (unless the Army tells me to). The best thing about Texas is we have a weak Governor and our legislation only meets every 2 years. GOP or Dem they don't get a lot of opportunity to screw things up. People here tend to be a Texan first regardless of political affiliation so even a blue Texas won't look anything like the failures you see in other blue states. I'll say it again though, you are counting your eggs before they have hatced to assume a definitive Hispanic voting block for the Dems moving forward or to assume that Texas Democrats closely resemble the national party.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirkland LaingIt's not me and it's not the author, it's top GOP officials in Texas who are saying this. They're saying it's a foregone conclusion. I'm sure you read the article. I know Lyle didn't as it contains a lot more than 140 characters. There's also this, by a Texas newspaper that says Democrats are currently shaving five and a half points off the Republican majority every four years and will win by 2024.Quote:
Originally Posted by VictorCharlieI'm not sure what you think soon is. It is possible for a shift but neither you nor the author seem to be all that familiar with Mexican culture in Texas. I think to count the Hispanic vote in Texas as a foregone conclusion for the Dems is pretty ignorant. It could swing that way but once the issue of immigration is put to bed there won't be a divisve issue to leverage. If the GOP steps on their dick on immigration then they will have a serious problem on the horizon. If they are able to provide a coherent non-antagonistic message then I'd expect a return to Bush type voting numbers for the Hispanics in Texas. Culturally Hispanics in Texas are very family oriented, religious, hard working and have a strong entrepeneurship streak. These qualities aren't a gimme for either party but are similar to other GOP voting blocks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirkland LaingThere's no need to worry, even Texas is going to become Democratic soon :Quote:
Originally Posted by VictorCharlie
Could Texas Become a Blue State? : The New Yorker
Exclusive analysis: If trends hold, Texas will be a toss-up state by 2024 | Texas on the Potomac | a Chron.com blog
Jeb Bush says Texas will be a blue state in four years. That's obviously going to make a huge difference at national level but also at state level as Tejanos vote for better local services and tax increases to pay for them. ¿As a Tejano, how does that make you feel? ¿Would you think about moving to another state?
Of course you do Kirk. I've lived here my whole life but hey some post election political projections must be the gospel.
Those guys have lived in Tejas all their lives and they do polirtics and demographics for a living, right?Quote:
Originally Posted by VictorCharlie
No they haven't lived here all their lives. Regardless, a sky is falling article post election isn't exactly a hard and fast study. I got it though, as usual you found some articles that support your world view and my personal experience is anecdotal.
Quote:
Originally Posted by El Kabonghttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpTIhyMa-NwQuote:
Originally Posted by TitoFan
Obama said he was going to bankrupt the coal industry. "If someone wants to build a coal powered plant they can, but it will bankrupt them" his own words, his own policies.....don't act surprised when he told everyone what he was going to do and the coal company is just preparing for Obama to make good on his promises.
So chief exec Murray decided to do a preemptive strike on the poor bastards that worked for him?
Sounds like a sound, business, humanitarian move to me. :vd:
Never mind trying to outplace these people. Never mind their needs. I'm fucking pissed off that Obama won... so I'll show HIM... I'll just fire all my own people.
"The hurricane is coming and it may damage my house... so I'll just blow the fucking thing up and not give the hurricane the satisfaction of blowing it down".
Give it up, Lyle. You know this is a bullshit move, just like all the bullshit secession talk that's going on.
Just like @Youngblood said...... epic butthurt.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFan
LOL, you don't get it do you? As the owner of the business that is directly in the crosshairs of the President he probably tightened the belt in order to prepare his company to survive for the next 4 years. You don't run a business do you? I've met with friends and they had deals that were surefire things go belly up after the election....is it because the people are racist? Are they bitter? Well they might be bitter at the thought of a lost opportunity but they wouldn't cut off their nose to spite their face because at the end of the day their job as owner of a business is to MAKE MONEY.
But hey, I'm glad you liberals think it's all just a case of "butthurt", if that makes you feel better and keeps you feeling all warm & fuzzy on the inside as the economy slows to a grinding halt then that's fine. You call me out for generalizing when I show the guy gaming the welfare system but you're telling me that this guy who owns the Coal company and everyone else not making deals after the election is just on account of "butthurt".....that's rich man, quite funny.
Quote:
Originally Posted by El KabongQuote:
Originally Posted by TitoFan
LOL, you don't get it do you? As the owner of the business that is directly in the crosshairs of the President he probably tightened the belt in order to prepare his company to survive for the next 4 years. You don't run a business do you? I've met with friends and they had deals that were surefire things go belly up after the election....is it because the people are racist? Are they bitter? Well they might be bitter at the thought of a lost opportunity but they wouldn't cut off their nose to spite their face because at the end of the day their job as owner of a business is to MAKE MONEY.
But hey, I'm glad you liberals think it's all just a case of "butthurt", if that makes you feel better and keeps you feeling all warm & fuzzy on the inside as the economy slows to a grinding halt then that's fine. You call me out for generalizing when I show the guy gaming the welfare system but you're telling me that this guy who owns the Coal company and everyone else not making deals after the election is just on account of "butthurt".....that's rich man, quite funny.
No Lyle. What's funny is your notion that President Obama's first order of business on his very busy agenda is to single out and close all coal companies, regardless of what he may have said. Yes... I imagine him sitting with his Cabinet first thing in the morning after his re-election, saying: "Well boys... first things first. We need to close down all these damn coal companies. Starting with that shitty one in Ohio, what's it called..... Murray Energy?"
But you're the consumate businessman, Lyle. If you think the immediate firing of over 150 workers from a coal company is sound business practice, and has nothing to do with butthurt over Obama's re-election... then by golly, you must be right.
Well you're a liberal so obviously you can't be wrong :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFan
Quote:
Originally Posted by El KabongWell you're a liberal so obviously you can't be wrong :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFan
Never mind how the article goes on to say how Murray Energy has incurred in environmental atrocities in the past, specifically by spilling coal slurry into nearby creeks... and how the company has donated over $1 million to Republican candidates in the last 5 years. So this had nothing to do with Obama's re-election, except that maybe under Obama, Murray's company will be held accountable for any further environmental "mishaps". Not to mention the fact that Obama will of course emphasize the maximization of natural gas, a cheaper, cleaner fuel.
So fuck it. Rather than restructure or adapt, like other companies do... let's just fire all these bastards. After all, that is what sound business practices would dictate. Right Lyle?
I haven't had a look at his books, I can't tell you. If he REALLY wanted to "spite Obama" he'd close up shop, fire everyone and leave the country and put any investments in offshore accounts that the IRS can't get their hands on right?Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFan
Natural gas eh? Which calls for drilling and fracking? Yeah I'm certain his granola eating hippy fanbase will love that :rolleyes:
Quote:
Originally Posted by El KabongI haven't had a look at his books, I can't tell you. If he REALLY wanted to "spite Obama" he'd close up shop, fire everyone and leave the country and put any investments in offshore accounts that the IRS can't get their hands on right?Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFan
Natural gas eh? Which calls for drilling and fracking? Yeah I'm certain his granola eating hippy fanbase will love that :rolleyes:
"Granola eating hippy fanbase"? LOL... Lyle, you're too much.
But the Murray fellow isn't all THAT bad. After all, he DID have a prayer posted on the web. He must think God is a Republican. But hey... in the prayer he asks for forgiveness for his decision. I'm sure that's a great consolation to the over 150 employees with perfectly good jobs that were immediately fired.
Yes "granola eating hippy fanbase" the moonbats that think solar pannels and windfarms will create enough energy for everyone. The people who have bought "Man Made Global Warming" hook line and sinker....you think they are for any "fossil fuel" (how cute, they think it's fossils) being used?Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFan
Hey, whatever gets you to sleep at night. Us Republicans are just evil racist hate mongers that's why OUR minorities are called horrible names which I won't repeat here.
In Montana there are substantial coal reserves. In the recent elections, the line was that, due to excessive regulation at least one plant was forced to close, and that future operations would be curtailed. this was blamed not only on obama, but on jon tester (democratic contender for the senate) and Steve Bullock (erstwhile state attorney general and newly elected democrat governor). That may very well be true. Not being in that business, I have no way of knowing.
I do know, for certain, that anybody running for office, regardless of party, lies. And I am equally certain that their more rabid supporters would, could and do play games with the rest of us to "prove" their points.
I don't think that there is any possibility of anything getting done properly or anything getting better when, no matter which party is in charge, when half the population/"leadership" is not only hoping that the other side fails, but is actively working to make certain that they fail.
This whole trip of playing red/blue, liberal/conservative, democrat/republican like its some fucking football game when people's live and futures are what is being played with is utterly asinine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by greynotsoold
Unfortunately, grey, politics is politics and will always be. Gone are the days when the true good of the people... ALL the people... is considered above all else. There's always a hidden political agenda and special interests to appease. Extreme environmentalists would have us shut the country down, so as to not endanger the yellow-striped, hook-billed, heavy-feathered hummingbird... and our children and grandchildren can go camping and see them. Extreme oil and coal advocates would have us think that oil and coal are limitless, and screw the environment... what's a few major oil spills here and there, and who cares about emissions from burning coal.
I don't consider myself either Republican or Democrat (contrary to what Lyle may think, with all due respect, Lyle). But I have a deep mistrust for Mitt Romney, which I expressed as many times as I could before and after the elections. I've never claimed Barack Obama is perfect, either. I'm sure we've had much better and more effective Presidents. But to me it was the lesser of two evils.
You, unlike most of us (or all) in the forum, live in Montana. So you have a long-standing and clear view of the politics in your state and your neck of the woods. You have your reasons for supporting or not supporting certain issues. The issues you consider important may be 180 degrees different from those that someone in NYC might consider important. But your point is well taken. Politicians by and large, lie. Believe me. If a new candidate surfaced tomorrow who looked and sounded capable of leading the country and doing what is best for ALL Americans, not just the wealthy upper class... and could balance the need for energy with the needs of the environment... and could work truly in a bi-partisan manner for the good of the country.... I wouldn't give a rat's ass whether he/she was Republican, Democrat, or Martian. I'd support that person.
His name was Gary Johnson.Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFan
I understand what you mean when you speak of having a deep mistrust of Romney. In 08, I knew that the republican candidate would lose so I was glad to see Obama win his party's nomination because Hilary Clinton just terrifies me. At the same time, I was glad to see Romney lose because I figured that it would end his political career because he terrifies me as well. I read some place earlier today that he lost because few could believe that he would save us from people like himself.
Something I can't understand about politics today and the solutions that are presented...They are diametrically opposed. Absolutely zero in common. Now, these are our "best and brightest" and they went to the same universities. Yet every option presented is contrary to and exclusive of the option presented by the other side. And people continue to buy into one side or the other without seeing it all for the farce that it is.