Can he recover from the beating he took from Carl Froch? I know he's good enough but, is he tough enough?
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Can he recover from the beating he took from Carl Froch? I know he's good enough but, is he tough enough?
Good question. I think he is and its upstairs more then anything physical. Carls a 21st century Denny Moyer. Anytime, anywhere, anyplace. Bute was stopped in the amateurs before but nothing like that. History is on Carls side. Most rematches end up a worse beating the the original. Most. I have this feeling Bute is mentally wrecked.
yeah i agree, when rematches are so soon after the first the result is very rarely reversed, especially when its so one sided in the first
my honest opinion is is that bute was massively over rated before the first froch fight, he hadnt fought anyone at world class really
johnson yes but johnson rarely wins at the lofty heights anymore
Hopefully carl knocks him out sooner.
Oh, totally. He was crushed by Froch who really doesn't crush people at elite level and then looked god awful and gun shy in a very lacklustre comeback bout. Froch will keep him in Canada for good after this completely pointless rematch.
I'm canadian and a huge Bute fan, but I think he's finished on the elite level. Some guys get stronger after a humilitating beating, but I don't think he's one of those guys. He'll always be a solid fighter, but I don't see him competing with the big boys anymore.
@erics44 you always forget Bika.Quote:
Originally Posted by erics44
I'm such a die-hard Bute fan that I'm biased in his favor so take this with a grain of salt.
I liked that last round against Grachev. It has me thinking Bute still has it. However, the Grachev fight as a whole made me think twice about him; I must admit. However, a point can be made that Grachev is tougher than advertised and has a style that is comparable to Froch's. He was the exact opponent Bute needed to face and that he ended the fight strong is a good omen. Is he over at the top level? Maybe. Could he beat Arthur Abraham, Robert Stieglitz etc.? Yes.
People say Bute was overrated. I just don't get it. Pre-Froch fight, when you compare his performances against common opponents, Bute performed better at every instance. Watch Froch against Johnson or Ward against Miranda and Bika. Bute did better. He stopped Miranda and dominated Bika and Johnson. Froch took a split decision against Johnson and Ward had difficulty with Bika and couldn't put down Miranda.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rantcatrat
I'm a die hard to but that Grachev fight was the kicker for me. Who knows maybe that was the kind of fight he needed to have but to me he's got some major head issues/confidence.
I agree, I think it was silly for people to say he was overrated. It's not like he didn't fight tough opposition.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rantcatrat
I really hope he can come back, but I saw the look in his eyes and his body language when things got tough in the Froch fight. I saw that in a lot of other guys who fizzled out.
,Quote:
Originally Posted by BeanflickerI agree, I think it was silly for people to say he was overrated. It's not like he didn't fight tough opposition.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rantcatrat
I really hope he can come back, but I saw the look in his eyes and his body language when things got tough in the Froch fight. I saw that in a lot of other guys who fizzled out.
Confidence is vital for a fighter, Bute has lost a little and I think it started with the first Andrade fight. I know he won both Andrade fights but he looked ready to run in that first fight. Like you said he had that look in his eyes.
First rule of boxing is not to judge a fighter by comparing common foes. After all, Mundine caused Kessler problems over 12 rounds, Ottke knocked him out with one punch. Should we suppose Ottke is better and hits harder?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rantcatrat
People don't get that Bute was overrated? it's silly? The dictionary definition:-
To overestimate the merits of; rate too highly.
Bute was bookies favorite, and almost all experts picked a close fight, or win for Bute. Ring magazine had 22 experts polled. 10 picked Froch, 12 Bute. None picked Froch KO. The only warnings were that Bute has not fought anyone as good as Froch, whereas Froch has faced as good or better than Bute.
The result was Bute not only being beaten, but being easily outclassed. Given the experts and bookies pre- fight predictions, it makes Bute the very example of overrated by the definition above.
I was responding to a post that said Bute was massively overrated before the fight, which is rubbish since at that time all we had to go on were (1) common opponents and (2) experience. With regard to common opponents, Bute did better hands down. With regard to experience, when Froch fought elite opponents, he lost (e.g. Kessler and Ward). Looking at it with 20/20 hindsight after the fight is always easy, but at the time of the fight to say he was overrated doesn't make sense. Also, it takes credit away from Froch for winning what is arguably the best win of his career.Quote:
Originally Posted by BobthepenFirst rule of boxing is not to judge a fighter by comparing common foes. After all, Mundine caused Kessler problems over 12 rounds, Ottke knocked him out with one punch. Should we suppose Ottke is better and hits harder?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rantcatrat
People don't get that Bute was overrated? it's silly? The dictionary definition:-
To overestimate the merits of; rate too highly.
Bute was bookies favorite, and almost all experts picked a close fight, or win for Bute. Ring magazine had 22 experts polled. 10 picked Froch, 12 Bute. None picked Froch KO. The only warnings were that Bute has not fought anyone as good as Froch, whereas Froch has faced as good or better than Bute.
The result was Bute not only being beaten, but being easily outclassed. Given the experts and bookies pre- fight predictions, it makes Bute the very example of overrated by the definition above.
You have it the wrong way around. He isn't massively overrated now, because we know the level he is at. The fact that he was a)Stepping up in class for the first time and b) expected to win by most and got destroyed is exactly the definition of overrated if you think about the meaning of the word i.e. rated higher than his true level.Quote:
Originally Posted by RantcatratI was responding to a post that said Bute was massively overrated before the fight, which is rubbish since at that time all we had to go on were (1) common opponents and (2) experience. With regard to common opponents, Bute did better hands down. With regard to experience, when Froch fought elite opponents, he lost (e.g. Kessler and Ward). Looking at it with 20/20 hindsight after the fight is always easy, but at the time of the fight to say he was overrated doesn't make sense. Also, it takes credit away from Froch for winning what is arguably the best win of his career.Quote:
Originally Posted by BobthepenFirst rule of boxing is not to judge a fighter by comparing common foes. After all, Mundine caused Kessler problems over 12 rounds, Ottke knocked him out with one punch. Should we suppose Ottke is better and hits harder?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rantcatrat
People don't get that Bute was overrated? it's silly? The dictionary definition:-
To overestimate the merits of; rate too highly.
Bute was bookies favorite, and almost all experts picked a close fight, or win for Bute. Ring magazine had 22 experts polled. 10 picked Froch, 12 Bute. None picked Froch KO. The only warnings were that Bute has not fought anyone as good as Froch, whereas Froch has faced as good or better than Bute.
The result was Bute not only being beaten, but being easily outclassed. Given the experts and bookies pre- fight predictions, it makes Bute the very example of overrated by the definition above.
It's not like he had any pedigree at the highest level. With Froch we knew what we got, and though he has lost at elite level, they were tough matches (the Kessler one could have gone either way).
As you say, we rated him on his experience to date, and got it wrong. No shame, or 20/20 hindsight needed. I thought Bute was a lot better than he is. I overrated him.
We will find out in the long run but he did not take a systematic beating so should have a few more miles in the clock yet.
Bute doesn't have a granite chin. He stops throwing punches when he gets hurt. I thought Grachev was going to knock him out for a while there. Bute fought through a tough opponent who punches hard and knows how to cut off the ring effectively.
Don't think butes damaged goods, but it may be that frochs style will always be his kryptonite. You can say bute hadn't fought world class fighters before, he did fight some very good fighters, like andrade, johnson, and bika all of whom he dominated thourughly with the exception of the last round of the first andrade fight. Grachev is inexperienced but rough and tough and the kind of opponent bute needed at this stage. So I don't think he's damaged goods and I will be rooting for bute in the rematch but do expect him to loose.
Stay away from a rematch with Froch till 2014. He needs four fight against good fighters. Then he'll be ready for Froch or Ward. Not saying he's going to win. He's just not ready for a big fight in 2013. He's still young. He needs time to heal.
Rather he recovers or not doesn't really matter. It's become pretty damn clear Bute was not as good as he was made out to be. Bute loses the rematch. And loses against the other top 168 poundersQuote:
Originally Posted by mrbig1