JMMs different tactic in the 4th fight..

Ok so im probably wrong but I re-watched the fight last night and I thought I noticed something. All of the talk of JMM being slower and not looking as crisp and his extra weight. I started to think about why that would be. Ive always noticed JMM trying to go punch for punch and speed for speed with Pac but this time it looked like Marquez was waiting more. Then it struck me...did Marquez change his plan to less punches but more that count eg throw less but land heavier ? Sort of like he was sitting down more on his punches and aiming to catch pac with one bigger shot instead of a few. It just all seemed to fit but im probably wrong.

Yes his strategy changed. Went from being genius counter artist, to bulk up and and get super strong, then KTFO Pac with a right hand from the pit of hell. Seems to have worked too.

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Originally Posted by Youngblood

Yes his strategy changed. Went from being genius counter artist, to bulk up and and get super strong, then KTFO Pac with a right hand from the pit of hell. Seems to have worked too.

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Perhaps so, but it was kamikaze as Marquez lost his face in a couple of rounds. The early rounds Marquez was quiet, but clearly in the 3rd and last he took Manny's soul.

they both have only one strategy, the only difference is one has the skills to execute it.

both wanted a KO win cause a 12 rd decision wont cut it.

jmm bulked up and looked for the right hand bomb to land.

pac regained the same intensity he had 3 yrs back but is still tripping over jmms lead foot.

if pac didnt tripped, the right hand shouldve landed on his chest not on his face.

i knew jmm would win this 4th bout but since im a pacfan i felt sad for the way pac lost.

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Originally Posted by mnmc10

they both have only one strategy, the only difference is one has the skills to execute it.

both wanted a KO win cause a 12 rd decision wont cut it.

jmm bulked up and looked for the right hand bomb to land.

pac regained the same intensity he had 3 yrs back but is still tripping over jmms lead foot.

if pac didnt tripped, the right hand shouldve landed on his chest not on his face.

i knew jmm would win this 4th bout but since im a pacfan i felt sad for the way pac lost.

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This can't be overlooked. I didn't notice it until the next morning when @greynotsoold pointed it out. But I did notice several things that didn't make sense that night when it happened. 1. Pac's left went from in motion to a natural trying to balance leaving him wide open 2. The speed at what his head was moving on vid into the punch. Only the next day seeing the footage did those things make sense.

Yes, great punch from a stronger than normal Marquez. But only coupled with the trip did it end up so devastating. And that is boxing. Often more then just one factor at play.

Watch it in this clip. (when it pans out)

http://thebiglead.fantasysportsven.n...ko-marquez.gif

Well even though it's beyond nerdy to analyse someone tripping before getting ironed out, I agree that trip had a big impact, not only did it alter his body position, but mentally you would briefly switch off from absorbing a punch as you try to regain your footing.

Was a slip/trip







;D

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Originally Posted by armyash

Was a slip/trip







;D

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cheating bastard Marquez did that on purpose!

Quality over quantity this time. It was pretty clear coming in he intended to look for power and the right hand has always been there for him. Manny felt an urgency to get back to attack mode and the two style shifts collided like a freight train. Regardless of looking to counter more or slug more Marquez always has that accuracy to a tee and the blueprint that these guys had on each other over three fights was a tremendous factor. I thought as much as the foot Marquez did well to spin him into that shotgun like right. The placement was superb.

On one of the 24/7 shows Nacho is getting on Marquez's case about throwing the right hand - I'll need to watch it to see what he said exactly but it was along the lines of because you didn't use it before you lost.

Hindsight eh?

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Originally Posted by Howlin Mad Missy

On one of the 24/7 shows Nacho is getting on Marquez's case about throwing the right hand - I'll need to watch it to see what he said exactly but it was along the lines of because you didn't use it before you lost.

Hindsight eh?

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I have a feeling after he reminded him to sit down on it he reminded him to turn to the judges with it as well......:fyou:

Theres a rumour going around that marquez (a natural size 7 in shoe size) wore a size 12 training shoe on his left foot.

First margarito, now marquez..this has to stop.

The foot thing is being over played. Not only is this common when a southpaw faces an orthodox but it happened numerous times in all three previous fights. Manny does drop his left hand when he jabs and he did it in this case while in the pocket and it was him that closed the distance. The punch was coming regardless of the foot.

The foot thing maybe explains why Manny was sparked unconcious for about three hours instead of just being unconcious like a normal unconcious sparkage job.

I don't know.

But I think the trip theory is pretty sound.

I also heard he went back to favouring those dodgy socks.

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Originally Posted by Fenster

The foot thing maybe explains why Manny was sparked unconcious for about three hours instead of just being unconcious like a normal unconcious sparkage job.

I don't know.

But I think the trip theory is pretty sound.

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Yup I do think the lights were out a little longer because of it.

@Youngblood : So if I understand this correctly JMM landed that shot because Pac tripped?

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Originally Posted by CutMeMick

@Youngblood : So if I understand this correctly JMM landed that shot because Pac tripped?

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No, not at all. Some pacfans are saying that. They'd be wrong. I'm not.

He would have landed it either way I believe. It was just much more devastating because of the trip also. Just because a trip happened doesn't take away from it, but it is also no reason to ignore it when analyzing things. I honestly believe I am one of the most unbiased people on this site, maybe any site. I just see what I see from a technical stand point and say it, my guy, your guy, it don't matter to me.

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Originally Posted by Youngblood

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Originally Posted by CutMeMick

@Youngblood : So if I understand this correctly JMM landed that shot because Pac tripped?

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No, not at all. Some pacfans are saying that. They'd be wrong. I'm not.

He would have landed it either way I believe. It was just much more devastating because of the trip also. Just because a trip happened doesn't take away from it, but it is also no reason to ignore it when analyzing things. I honestly believe I am one of the most unbiased people on this site, maybe any site. I just see what I see from a technical stand point and say it, my guy, your guy, it don't matter to me.

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This whole foot thing is just funny... But anywho.

I think that shot lands regardless of where Pac steps. He was walking right into it as he stepped forward.

:confused: Nobody is suggesting Marquez "tripped" him. Marquez had his lead foot set well before Pacquiao came forward off balance and out of position, the same thing has happened frequently in all of their fights as Inuit said. It doesn't detract from Marquez' win to attribute it to better footwork and patience, surely..Manny tripped up because he came in wide open at the wrong moment, not the other way around.

lol cognitive dissonance on display itt.

I don't think it is funny or silly at all to examine. It would be in a thread about kudos for a fighter, where if by design it is to take away from the message. This is about strategy so more apt to discuss technical issues. Important to separate the two.

If you look at what happens to Pacs hands mid way, they go from the usual delivering a jab reaction, with possibly a followup left, to one of natural reaction to falling. Think about the human reaction to falling. Both hands tend to pull up almost 100% of the time to protect the head for when it hits the ground. It's not something someone chooses to do, it just happens.

Like I mentioned, when I watched it that night I only had real time footage of the waist and up and from a stream, a good one mind, but not taped, or in HD. It bothered me as something seemed off. Mostly the heads speed and angle driving in. Next morning had all the information, DL'd HD version, gifs, and so analyzed it and it made sense and had the aha moment to what didn't seem correct in the body mechanics of a typical KO.

Youngblood and P4P are right on here. The trip was obviously something and It does nothing to discount Marquez' victory. I don't buy that he was wearing a bigger shoe, that seems absurd. Yb is right though, I didn't see it until the next day either. Rather then be repetitive, I'll throw one more accidental consequence of the trip and that the trip may have opened Pacquiao up a bit. Pacquiao isn't an amateur and it was off to see him have a little 'bow and arrow' lunging with the jab like that

Don't really thing much changed tactically. Only thing with this perfect shot was that Marquez baited Pac and he bit. All that time from the third fight marquez was rotating to his left and pac followed. setting up his punch in the fourth was predictable even for marquez and nacho.

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Originally Posted by amat

Youngblood and P4P are right on here. The trip was obviously something and It does nothing to discount Marquez' victory. I don't buy that he was wearing a bigger shoe, that seems absurd. Yb is right though, I didn't see it until the next day either. Rather then be repetitive, I'll throw one more accidental consequence of the trip and that the trip may have opened Pacquiao up a bit. Pacquiao isn't an amateur and it was off to see him have a little 'bow and arrow' lunging with the jab like that

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No doubt. Manny was already walking into a perfect shot, but losing his balance at the last second like that made it unreal. Marquez had already lined him up perfectly and committed to the punch, the fact that Pac tripped over his lead is only further to his credit! It's not hard to imagine the effect being magnified by that kind of lapse, Marquez was already almost beside him by the time he turning the shot over, Manny didn't see it to begin with.

First of I don't want to take any credit away from Marquez.

However, the first thin I always look at when Pac gets caught by Marquez are their feets and usually Marquez feet is the one ontop of Pacs.

Seeing the knockout punch and seeing Pac falling forward instead of away from the punch is like he ran into a wall without balance and without the force to knock him backwards.

YB, I think when you thought something didn't look right. I felt the same and realize the fact that why did pac fall towards the punch instead of the punch powering pac away with its force. The trip played a major part, just saying.

Again, I do not intend to take credit away from Marquez. I actually didn't want to engage into this whole trip/out of balance because as a pac fan if I did I knew nobody would believe me. Just adding my 2 cent since the neutral guys saw it too.

Well as long as it's not an excuse it's all good. :)

Also did you guys notice JMM also tripped on Pac's foot in his knockdown?
I didn't notice that on fight night maybe cuz I jumped out of my seat and started yelling "fuck! fuck! fuck! fuck! fuck! here he comes now" ;D

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Originally Posted by CutMeMick

Well as long as it's not an excuse it's all good. :)

Also did you guys notice JMM also tripped on Pac's foot in his knockdown?
I didn't notice that on fight night maybe cuz I jumped out of my seat and started yelling "fuck! fuck! fuck! fuck! fuck! here he comes now" ;D

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Haha, what a fight these two always have, its just amazing at this point. I really wouldn't mind seeing them continue there saga as long as its competitive.

Yea JMM def trip on pacs foot too in his knockdown. I didn't think that was what got him in trouble, I think it was the punches he was eating without going down. I really thought pac was out to destroy him that night but just got caught dead on his track. Just shows how dangerous both guys are. What a fucking rivalry ;D I can't get enough honeslty!

Hey as long as we are bringing up foot trips, im pretty sure Pac stepped on JMMs foot when he knocked him down ! And then JMM was like "oh no he fuckin didnt" and then JMM proceeded to knock Pacman into the stone age. Its been 3 days and im still rewatching the knock out and still fuckin happy about it.

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Originally Posted by Gandalf

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Originally Posted by Youngblood

Yes his strategy changed. Went from being genius counter artist, to bulk up and and get super strong, then KTFO Pac with a right hand from the pit of hell. Seems to have worked too.

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Perhaps so, but it was kamikaze as Marquez lost his face in a couple of rounds. The early rounds Marquez was quiet, but clearly in the 3rd and last he took Manny's soul.

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He took pacs sould in the third, then pac comes back to kd jmm and then plaster jmm and bloody his nose in the ko round?

I guess pac got his soul back in round 4

He was out for so long cause he chose to stop his fall with his face.

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Originally Posted by ruthless rocco

He was out for so long cause he chose to stop his fall with his face.

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Naw that punch caused his brain to smack his skull causing a concussion. PAC was out on his feet. The face plant didn't help, but I doubt he would've recovered

Marquez defo sacrificed spped for power and its a gamble that almost backfired. Just before the KO he was behind on the cards, marked up cut and looking gassed. Pac saw blood rushed in and Marquez was able to time him. Had Pac had a better boxing brain/trainer he would have eased off and continue to dominate with in and out boxing.

Up until that punch it was the worst Ive seen JMM look againt Pac. Age was catching up physically but his power was much improved almost suspicioulsy so.

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Originally Posted by CutMeMick

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Originally Posted by Youngblood

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Originally Posted by CutMeMick

@Youngblood : So if I understand this correctly JMM landed that shot because Pac tripped?

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No, not at all. Some pacfans are saying that. They'd be wrong. I'm not.

He would have landed it either way I believe. It was just much more devastating because of the trip also. Just because a trip happened doesn't take away from it, but it is also no reason to ignore it when analyzing things. I honestly believe I am one of the most unbiased people on this site, maybe any site. I just see what I see from a technical stand point and say it, my guy, your guy, it don't matter to me.

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This whole foot thing is just funny... But anywho.

I think that shot lands regardless of where Pac steps. He was walking right into it as he stepped forward.

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That is why I have thought for many years that Pac can be timed. He steps in with the jab, and when he throws the left, he brings his left foot up, he squares up. I think he does that to get really turned on his right hook, which I have thought for awhile is his hardest punch.
If you notice in this last fight, the right hook is really absent from his arsenal, because he is dodging the right of Marquez as he throws the left hand, but then Pac landed that very hard right in the fifth and was looking for it again.. When their feet got tangled, I'm sure there was some effect on Pac's balance, but he was stepping up with is left foot, putting him right in front of that right hand.

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Originally Posted by GAME

Marquez defo sacrificed spped for power and its a gamble that almost backfired. Just before the KO he was behind on the cards, marked up cut and looking gassed. Pac saw blood rushed in and Marquez was able to time him. Had Pac had a better boxing brain/trainer he would have eased off and continue to dominate with in and out boxing.

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If he eased off he could have have the fight stopped in the later rounds or JuanMa could have come back like he did on the first fight where he was also bleeding badly from the start.

Here's a video of what he focused on during his training, and that is Pacquiao's typical jab jab followed by a straight left.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIEM-QiNt6I

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Originally Posted by Chino

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Originally Posted by GAME

Marquez defo sacrificed spped for power and its a gamble that almost backfired. Just before the KO he was behind on the cards, marked up cut and looking gassed. Pac saw blood rushed in and Marquez was able to time him. Had Pac had a better boxing brain/trainer he would have eased off and continue to dominate with in and out boxing.

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Here's a video of what he focused on during his training, and that is Pacquiao's typical jab jab followed by a straight left.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIEM-QiNt6I

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yup... That looks about right. Good post.