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I enjoyed seeing Pacquiao go down the way he did but at the same time the first time I saw Juan Ma ripped I had started to wonder what was going on. To have a conditioning coach in his corner with a shady past makes you go hhhhmmm. I really really really hope there are no surprises coming December 17th when the results are out. What do you guys think?
Juan Manuel Marquez says "I am a clean fighter," according to report - ESPN
Can't say for sure, but meer speculations nowadays. IMO...heredia does have a questioning if not shady past plus his youtube evidence. All in all...i think 24/7 year ly random testing should be enforced.
he said he's for olympic style testing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chino
He did say that but it was AFTER the fight. They didn't follow olympic style testing for this one. Not something Pacquiao and Bob Arum support.Quote:
Originally Posted by Howlin Mad Missyhe said he's for olympic style testing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chino
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChinoHe did say that but it was AFTER the fight. They didn't follow olympic style testing for this one. Not something Pacquiao and Bob Arum support.Quote:
Originally Posted by Howlin Mad Missyhe said he's for olympic style testing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chino
He offered to do whatever testing they wanted to get the fight and was pretty much the same size in the last fight. Of course that would have meant that Manny would have to do the same testing. He only weighed 143 for this one. A pound heavier then last time. The punch that ended it would have ko'd anyone in the division and no doubt several people north it was landed so perfectly. He had 4 fights to get it right and it was obvious they concentrated on the right hand in camp. Also keep in mind that a couple of pounds of muscle put on through weight training looks a lot more exaggerated on smaller guys. He gets the benefit of doubt in my book.
Marquez testing positive for PED's would be a blow as huge to Mexican fight fans as it was for Philipino fight fans to see Manny laying on the floor...
I'm not much of a super religious man but I pray JMM didnt embaress himself, the sport, his fans, and his country in order to get a win over PacMan.
AND before in response to Roach accusing him of cheatingQuote:
Originally Posted by ChinoHe did say that but it was AFTER the fight. They didn't follow olympic style testing for this one. Not something Pacquiao and Bob Arum support.Quote:
Originally Posted by Howlin Mad Missyhe said he's for olympic style testing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chino
Quote:
Originally Posted by IamInuit
I thought about that too. The way that punch landed could have knocked out anybody in the division. Good points! Why do we have to wait until Monday?! Aaaarrrggghh!
Onix,
Yes, it would be a huge disappointment for Mexican boxing fans as bad as Filipinos who saw their guy go down the way he did.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Howlin Mad MissyQuote:
Originally Posted by ChinoQuote:
Originally Posted by Howlin Mad MissyQuote:
Originally Posted by Chino
Quote:
Originally Posted by Howlin Mad MissyQuote:
Originally Posted by ChinoQuote:
Originally Posted by Howlin Mad MissyQuote:
Originally Posted by Chino
he said he's for olympic style testing.
He did say that but it was AFTER the fight. They didn't follow olympic style testing for this one. Not something Pacquiao and Bob Arum support.
AND before in response to Roach accusing him of cheating
Good to hear that. Man! I just hope everything is fine with the results and Olympic style testing is reinforced regardless of Monday’s outcome.
I think he's clean. Like it was said, i think that punch drops everybody in the division. I thought he was all for random testing but Arum said no? I don't think it's out of the questions for a guy to train 4 months with a personal trainer and put on some muscle. I guess we will find out on the 17th.
Actually Marquez has been training under Herrerdia's program for over a year, so it is definitely not out of the question for a guy to get size and definition in that period especially if he really had not weight trained regularly previously.Quote:
Originally Posted by MMASUX
So its a toss up really, lets just hope.
Have no idea, and I'm not going to worry about it or let it ruin that beautiful right hand Marquez threw, until I have no other choice.Quote:
Originally Posted by OnixActually Marquez has been training under Herrerdia's program for over a year, so it is definitely not out of the question for a guy to get size and definition in that period especially if he really had not weight trained regularly previously.Quote:
Originally Posted by MMASUX
So its a toss up really, lets just hope.
I doubt more than 5% of all professional fighters are clean.
I sort of agree :S why wouldn't they cheat if you follow any other sports and investigate drug cheats there it's not that hard to get around even this famous olympic testing... i.e marion jones, lance armstrong..... with such big money at stake and such a small risk of being caught why not dope :S.. I am a big cycling fan and even with the very strict testing there so many people get away with it and are onyl caught when the police invesitgate doctors who supply the stuff and so on...Quote:
Originally Posted by CFH
I would guess marquez is on some form of drug cheating just because of who he is working with just now... but whatever I dont really care and I doubt he has no bigger an advantage than the other big name fighters have
Lets just call everyone cheaters and call it an even playing field.
No man that drinks his own urine can ever be considered clean.
Wouldnt surprise me if he was roided cu so much more powerful than he was vs Fedchecnko afew months earlier and that doesnt happen naturally at 40 but team Pac should have stipulated random testing if they had concerns.
Olympic style testing can be cheated.Quote:
Originally Posted by Howlin Mad Missy
This day and age, unless you're truly niave, you have to acknowledge the fact that your favorite boxers either ARE or HAVE used some type of banned performance enhancer. The tests have been proven to be HIGHLY cheatable, so not pissing hot is not really a strong indicator.
Whether JMM is using or not has no relevance in the Pac fight, however, because Pac is probably the most suspect guy in boxing when it comes to PED usage.
Could it be that pacs chin is just slowly giving in??? Not like he's been a defensive genius in his career, hell its also not like marquez never hurt him before. Plus it was a perfect punch with many already going forward so that only enhanced the impact.
That's the thing. Pac has been hit hard before, but how many times has he been hit that cleanly, with that big of a bomb, coming in that hard? Perfect punch, I doubt many (if any) around that weight would have been able to take that shot.Quote:
Originally Posted by armin
So why not do it then? If you're going to hire a guy who is a known steroid dealer and you suddenly start looking like a Mexican Arnold Schwarzenegger then people are going to ask questions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Howlin Mad Missyhe said he's for olympic style testing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chino
None of these guys are for Olympic-style drug testing, not even Mayweather. All they have to do to undergo Olympic-style testing -- that's 24/7, 365 days a year, not just in the two month buildup to a fight like Mayweather has started doing -- is to let VADA test them. VADA will do it for free, it won't cost them a penny. VADA were the people who caught Peterson and Berto.
The only boxer who has signed up with VADA is Donaire. That's it.
Drug testing by the Las Vegas commission and other state commissions is more of an IQ test than a drug test. Even the head guy at Vegas admits passing it is as easy as crossing the street. It's only a piss test on the night of the fight, you'd have to be a complete idiot to fail it.
i actually think 5% of all fighters might be a bit lowQuote:
Originally Posted by CFH
im sure there are many a journey man and low level fighter who are clean
once you get to a certain level tho I agree with you
ive been to mexico and you can buy steriods in most chemists
they are advertised on the windows
im not sure if there are any additional rules once you get in the chemist and ask for them mind
Did you forget who JMM was fighting? Why take the tests that your opponent won't? Roach raised his concerns, not Marquez so the onus falls on Roach to request them, not Marquez's camp.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirkland LaingSo why not do it then? If you're going to hire a guy who is a known steroid dealer and you suddenly start looking like a Mexican Arnold Schwarzenegger then people are going to ask questions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Howlin Mad Missyhe said he's for olympic style testing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chino
None of these guys are for Olympic-style drug testing, not even Mayweather. All they have to do to undergo Olympic-style testing -- that's 24/7, 365 days a year, not just in the two month buildup to a fight like Mayweather has started doing -- is to let VADA test them. VADA will do it for free, it won't cost them a penny. VADA were the people who caught Peterson and Berto.
The only boxer who has signed up with VADA is Donaire. That's it.
Drug testing by the Las Vegas commission and other state commissions is more of an IQ test than a drug test. Even the head guy at Vegas admits passing it is as easy as crossing the street. It's only a piss test on the night of the fight, you'd have to be a complete idiot to fail it.
This guy is probably the top boxing journalist. He wrote Ali's biography and he just wrote these two articles on PEDs. PEDs are going to become the biggest issue in boxing at some point so it's good to know what the situation is :
Max Boxing - News - The PED Mess: Part One
Max Boxing - News - The PED Mess: Part Two
I think both guys are taking them. The onus is on every top boxer. If you're being accused of cheating it's the easiest thing in the world to put that to bed. You can sign up with VADA. If you're earning what these guys are you can pay a company to random test you once a week out of your own pocket and it's just a training expense. But it'd prove you were clean. Employing a known steroid dealer and putting that kind of muscle on at 39 while you're doing hours of cardio every day and then volunteering to take any test the week of the fight is just taking the piss.Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamGBDid you forget who JMM was fighting? Why take the tests that your opponent won't? Roach raised his concerns, not Marquez so the onus falls on Roach to request them, not Marquez's camp.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirkland LaingSo why not do it then? If you're going to hire a guy who is a known steroid dealer and you suddenly start looking like a Mexican Arnold Schwarzenegger then people are going to ask questions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Howlin Mad Missyhe said he's for olympic style testing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chino
None of these guys are for Olympic-style drug testing, not even Mayweather. All they have to do to undergo Olympic-style testing -- that's 24/7, 365 days a year, not just in the two month buildup to a fight like Mayweather has started doing -- is to let VADA test them. VADA will do it for free, it won't cost them a penny. VADA were the people who caught Peterson and Berto.
The only boxer who has signed up with VADA is Donaire. That's it.
Drug testing by the Las Vegas commission and other state commissions is more of an IQ test than a drug test. Even the head guy at Vegas admits passing it is as easy as crossing the street. It's only a piss test on the night of the fight, you'd have to be a complete idiot to fail it.
So let's not bother with anything then:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by BeanflickerOlympic style testing can be cheated.Quote:
Originally Posted by Howlin Mad Missy
This day and age, unless you're truly niave, you have to acknowledge the fact that your favorite boxers either ARE or HAVE used some type of banned performance enhancer. The tests have been proven to be HIGHLY cheatable, so not pissing hot is not really a strong indicator.
Whether JMM is using or not has no relevance in the Pac fight, however, because Pac is probably the most suspect guy in boxing when it comes to PED usage.
I'm just stating facts. People are falsely believing that Olympic style testing (and the "olympic style testing" that gets brought up in boxing isn't even true Olympic-style testing) is going to be the magic bullet that cleans up the sport, and that's just not realistic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Howlin Mad Missy
I agree that any test can be cheated out of but however the filter makes it harder for most to get away with cheating. You can't ever have full proof but god damn VADA is so much better than USADA that its just saddening.
As for JMM cheating, I can't ever say he wasn't because for all he knew he could have been taking a protein shake and not knowing what it was, or he knew, or it was just a protein shake..see where I'm going with this?
Who knows, its not like he was lighting quick and in the 11th round he was still a bundle of energy, his punch output was generally less than normal and he was pivoting his shoulders and hips into his right hand ala Hearns.
innocent until proven dopey
The fact is that it's just not realistic for a 40 year old man to make that kind of physical improvement.
Your natural testosterone level starts dropping when you hit your 30s. And that's for your average Joe.
Boxers have it worse, because it's found that with all the punches they take to the head, their pineal gland is damaged and their testosterone levels end up being similar to a much older man's.
Do I think a 40 year old man who has taken over 20 years of blows to the head can put on that much muscle naturally, all the while undergoing an incredibly taxing cardiovascular training camp? No, I don't believe that for a second.
Were PED's used by the MARQUEZ camp? An in-depth discussion in this interview with Steve Kim of Maxboxing.com
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skhsQqtA9pg
i have a few points to make :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Beanflicker
once you reach your mid 20s its very hard to put on muscle at any rate so if it was lean muscle we were looking at, even tho he is with the best trainers and under the best conditions you can get for putting on muscle, i find it hard to believe
having said that, it may not have been lean muscle, he has put on a fair bit of weight but it could have been fat in the right places
sounds daft i know but i have gone through periods of body building, the idea is you bulk then cut, so eat loads put on loads of fat and some muscle then get rid of the fat
each time i started to bulk i started to look much more muscular even tho much of what i was putting on was fat
having said all that, i think he was on steriods just as i think pac was at least around the time of the cotto fight
The first right hand was beautiful too!Quote:
Originally Posted by BeanflickerThat's the thing. Pac has been hit hard before, but how many times has he been hit that cleanly, with that big of a bomb, coming in that hard? Perfect punch, I doubt many (if any) around that weight would have been able to take that shot.Quote:
Originally Posted by armin
Here is what I think happened and I'am not making an excuse for Manny or trying take anything away from Marquez.
The first KD of Manny was a real surprise for all of us especially Manny. Manny recovered and was doing better than Marquez. He was trying to erase that KD from everyone's mind by doing everything possible to win or steal every round, like every fighter does. The ten second warning had sounded and Manny went to work to ensure a close or winning round. He got careless and Marquez was waiting.
He was outsmarted, you could almost say he KOed himself.
That punch Marquez threw was as good as you'll ever see! It was beautiful, it was perfect and it was devastating.
I agree with Beanflicker saying even the best drug testing can be beaten. Even if somebody doing 24/7, 365 random testing tests negative it doesn'ty mean he really is. But it definitely makes it harder for cheats to cheat.
Donaire, who is the only boxer doing random 24/7 365 testing asked Arce to do random testing under VADA for this fight. Arce declined to do so. Arce's strength coach is Angel Hernandez/Herdedia, the same guy JMM uses.
Nope. He drinks his own piss like a tramp. Tramps are dirty.
........It's Ono ladies and gentlemenQuote:
Originally Posted by ono
He's here all week folks.
No way, really? :confused: Please share the link that talks about this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirkland Laing
Was Arce also afraid of needles, blood makes him nervous, he gets weakened and cannot train properly, he’s superticious, etc.?
If heredia is arces' s&c coach...then damn. I wouldn't be surprise if their is an upset. Arce is one of my favorite fighters. Would be ashamed if this is true.
I want to see the most current pictures of Jorge Arce. If he’s ripped then I don’t know what to say:-\.
Here's an interesting video on YT. Listen to the question@10:10. Then the response JMM gives through his interpreter. Then@12:33 of the vid, Heredia is asked a question about testing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5I4DJhUAfDE