Where do you rank Wladimir Klitschko among the all-time heavyweights?

Based on what he's done so far in his career, where do you rank Wladimir Klitschko among the all-time heavyweights?

I hate to rank a guy before he retires. Wladimir is very good though. Recently, Ring Magazine put out an article that asked how Wladimir would have fared against the best heavyweights of yesteryear. Most of the experts thought he would beat Floyd Patterson, but would lose to the rest of the normal bunch considered the top heavyweights of all-time.

I have mixed feelings on the guy. The Wlad that had not learned how to hold and clinch would have had a short life span in certain eras but the Wlad that learned how to apply those attributes from Manny is a different animal. Its probably the reason that he is encroaching on the longevity of Louis. I don't like the way he fights and find him and the division a bore fest but I think this version of Wlad is a problem in any era.

closing in on top 10 if he's not already there

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Originally Posted by Freedom

Based on what he's done so far in his career, where do you rank Wladimir Klitschko among the all-time heavyweights?

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Somewhere in the top 15 right now, but if Wlad keeps winning and finishes out his career without another loss, somewhere in the top 10.

I think he's in the top 10. Hard to argue with a guy who has dominated an era and negates the skills of nearly every one of his opponents. He's probably at around 9 or 10 now but if he keeps winning he'll climb.

Guys like The Big Cat and Brown Bomber and Manassa Mauler and Iron Mike all smoke prime Wlad and those guys arent even all in the top 5 or 6.

Wlad and his bro arent even in the Top 12. Starting with 13 or 14 I can consider rating them.
Certainly not before Larry Holmes or Joe Louis or Ali or Foreman or Lennox. Not fucking goddamned way

Let's talk about it. Who ranks above Wlad? Clearly, Louis, Ali, Dempsey, Foreman, Holmes, Marciano, Frazier, Lewis, Holmes, Johnson,

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Originally Posted by Rantcatrat

Let's talk about it. Who ranks above Wlad? Clearly, Louis, Ali, Dempsey, Foreman, Holmes, Marciano, Frazier, Lewis, Holmes, Johnson,

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Its an odd thing these rankings all time.It may not be popular but I have always felt that Foreman, Marciano and Holmes have been overrated and that guys like McVey, Young, Lanford and Wills have been underrated if not down right ignored.

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

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Originally Posted by Rantcatrat

Let's talk about it. Who ranks above Wlad? Clearly, Louis, Ali, Dempsey, Foreman, Holmes, Marciano, Frazier, Lewis, Holmes, Johnson,

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Its an odd thing these rankings all time.It may not be popular but I have always felt that Foreman, Marciano and Holmes have been overrated and that guys like McVey, Young, Lanford and Wills have been underrated if not down right ignored.

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its a never ending pleasure to debate it though. Langford was surely underrated as was O Sullivan. Talk about underrated James J Braddock and how about Gene Tunney.
Marciano overrated is tough because he never lost so how else can you measure him?

Too hard to judge, as we have no idea how good he is, because his best opponent is Sam Peter. Regardless of what he has done since, it's hard to have a guy top 10 that lost to Ross Purity, Lamont Brewster and Corrie Sanders (especially the manner of the losses)

He could be one of the greatest ever, but (through no fault of his own,) he has not been able to prove it by fighting any fighter that the top 50 heavyweights of all time would not also have beaten!!

wlad is the most boring HW champ of all time in and out of the ring, boring defensive style, takes no risks boring voice, killer of HW boxing

however, id say he beats all but lewis and it would be a close fight him and his brother in their primes

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Originally Posted by erics44

wlad is the most boring HW champ of all time in and out of the ring, boring defensive style, takes no risks boring voice, killer of HW boxing

however, id say he beats all but lewis and it would be a close fight him and his brother in their primes

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and Purity and Sanders and Brewster

Holding is an offence and nobody docks points.

Wladimir is crap and is rated nowhere, because he is crap.

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Originally Posted by BIG H

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Originally Posted by erics44

wlad is the most boring HW champ of all time in and out of the ring, boring defensive style, takes no risks boring voice, killer of HW boxing

however, id say he beats all but lewis and it would be a close fight him and his brother in their primes

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and Purity and Sanders and Brewster

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mate things are very different now

you cant compare the wlad that lost those fights with the wlad of today

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Originally Posted by Gandalf

Holding is an offence and nobody docks points.

Wladimir is crap and is rated nowhere, because he is crap.

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i agree with this, if the rules were applied properly then perhaps we would have a different HW champ, but you cant really base your assessment on the fact that is could be viewed that he cheats

Other fighters would suffer too, devon alexander andre ward to name a couple :)

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Originally Posted by Gandalf

Holding is an offence and nobody docks points.

Wladimir is crap and is rated nowhere, because he is crap.

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You must really hate B-Hop and Andre Ward, because they hold a lot more than Wlad does.

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Originally Posted by Freedom

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Originally Posted by Gandalf

Holding is an offence and nobody docks points.

Wladimir is crap and is rated nowhere, because he is crap.

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You must really hate B-Hop and Andre Ward, because they hold a lot more than Wlad does.

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Yes

IMO judges should judge on excitement

so if a fighter lands more punches in a round but also runs or holds a lot more then as long as his opponent is trying to make a fight of it then he should be awarded the round

obviously if it is destinctively more and holding running is within reason then fine

or like mayweather hasnt always been the most exciting but the art is there

get me?

PotMeasureGroupID

who has voted outside the top 15 or 20?

theres no way you can name me 20 HWs who would beat wlad prime for prime

please dont say joe frasier

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Originally Posted by erics44

PotMeasureGroupID

who has voted outside the top 15 or 20?

theres no way you can name me 20 HWs who would beat wlad prime for prime

please dont say joe frasier

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Are you asking if there are 20 'Better' or 20 'Greater'?

Until he retires somewhat in limbo around 12-15 for me. I don't put too much stock in countless trinket defenses lately, and that goes for every fighter, every weight going.

Wlad is in the top 20 but he is still going and by the end he could reach top 10 if not higher should he remain undefeated.

I believe his brother is better than him at his best but because of injuries and age he is not the force he was.

It's so hat to tell comparing fighters from different eras. I honestly think he could beat any boxer on his day, Ali, Tyson, Marciano, but I think any of them could also beat him. My top 10, in not order, are 2 klits, Ali, foreman, Frazier, Louis, Marciano, Holmes, Lewis and Tyson

I was torn between 10-15 and 16-20, but I honestly cannot name 15 better HWs, so I voted for the former. You cannot ignore the record and the sheer domination over the division, no matter how shitty the division is. And you cannot ignore the KO percentage, although many of his opponents have entered the ring with shit in their pants.

I also have mixed feelings, as someone said earlier. He dominates, but is boring. Excitement has to be factored into the equation, at least IMO. Wlad plays it safe, and his opponents accommodate him. I'd rather watch paint dry than to watch some of his fights. On the other hand, he's got a good 4-5 years left in him... and one can only hope he'll get tested by some of the young up-and-comers.

Another downer for me: Three ugly KO losses... and only one of them was avenged.
Total opposite from someone like Lewis.

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Originally Posted by erics44

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Originally Posted by BIG H

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Originally Posted by erics44

wlad is the most boring HW champ of all time in and out of the ring, boring defensive style, takes no risks boring voice, killer of HW boxing

however, id say he beats all but lewis and it would be a close fight him and his brother in their primes

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and Purity and Sanders and Brewster

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mate things are very different now

you cant compare the wlad that lost those fights with the wlad of today

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I have to agree with this

I don't think he would ever beat Sanders, Puritty, and Brewster at their best.

He fought Brewster again when he had literally only one eye and pretty much got up off his hospital bed that he was confined to for a year and into the ring against Wlad.

Fast hands, guys with power who can reach his chin, and durable guys who can take punishment and last are all wrong for Wlad. He really can't cope with speed and power and guys who can take his thunderous punches and keep coming.

Puritty was extremely durable, Brewster was durable and had power, and Sanders had fast hands and power. Someone like Tyson who was all of these things would ALWAYS beat Wlad and in a very devastating, career ending fashion.

Wlad is honestly like Frank Bruno with an even worst chin. Interestingly, when Tyson beat Bruno the second time Bruno was trying to clinch Tyson but Mike punched his way out and finished him, executioner style. When Wlad was neutered by Sanders, Sanders also punched through Wlad's holding and clinching attempts.

Wlad is the worst fighter I've ever seen if he's not in complete control.

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Originally Posted by BIG H

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Originally Posted by erics44

PotMeasureGroupID

who has voted outside the top 15 or 20?

theres no way you can name me 20 HWs who would beat wlad prime for prime

please dont say joe frasier

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Are you asking if there are 20 'Better' or 20 'Greater'?

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ha, that is a different question all together

if greatness isnt completely based on how good you are then Mohamad Ali was the greatest and wlad isnt in the top 50

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Originally Posted by TysonBomb

I don't think he would ever beat Sanders, Puritty, and Brewster at their best.

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He'd have issues with Sanders at any point. He never saw the punch. I cant recall how many southpaws Wlad has faced but its safe to say that none had the speed and power of Sanders.

I think today's version of Wlad beats both Purity and Brewer with relative ease. I mean he hit Brewster with more leather then a factory can produce. Punched himself out and was completely gassed. He's not even the same fighter in the least and I cant stand the way he fights. Irrelevant really because its effective and it works.
Ali was a hell of a clincher and holder. He also got away with holding behind the head for his entire career. If speed was the main aspect of solving the puzzle then Wlad would have lost a few over the past 11 years. I think the system he uses although a cure for narcolepsy is as good a defense as the shoulder roll and working behind it.


Dam it I almost sound like a fan.

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

I was torn between 10-15 and 16-20, but I honestly cannot name 15 better HWs, so I voted for the former. You cannot ignore the record and the sheer domination over the division, no matter how shitty the division is. And you cannot ignore the KO percentage, although many of his opponents have entered the ring with shit in their pants.

I also have mixed feelings, as someone said earlier. He dominates, but is boring. Excitement has to be factored into the equation, at least IMO. Wlad plays it safe, and his opponents accommodate him. I'd rather watch paint dry than to watch some of his fights. On the other hand, he's got a good 4-5 years left in him... and one can only hope he'll get tested by some of the young up-and-comers.

Another downer for me: Three ugly KO losses... and only one of them was avenged.
Total opposite from someone like Lewis.

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Good post. I don't mind the losses because they made him a better fighter. Again though, there is no way to know how he would have fared against a top heavyweight from the past because his competition has been weak.

16-20 based on level of opponent, top ten based on power.

I have him just inside my top ten at #10.

Two or three wins against decent opponents (Povetkin, Pulev, Fury, Price) and he'll be securely in the top ten on my list, about #8. And with four to six such wins, he can go even higher.

Jack Dempsey and Jack Johnson can NEVER be ranked below the K Brothers.
Joe Louis and Muhammad Ali can NEVER be ranked below the K Brothers.
Lennox Lewis and Larry Holmes can NEVER be ranked below the K Brothers.
Mike Tyson and George Foreman can never EVER be ranked below the K Brothers.

So right there at the very BEST they could be ranked they are at #9 and #10. BUT...:)

A very VERY strong case can be easily made that:

Evander Holyfield, Rocky Marciano, Gene Tunney, Sam Langford, and Audley Harrison are ALL ranked ahead of the K Brothers.

Therefore the K Brothers cannot reasonably be ranked any higher than #12 and #13 on the All-Time Great Heavyweights. And I reckon a prime Jersey Joe Walcott' prime Sonny Liston, or even a prime Ingemaar Johanssen would've given them a Night of Hell and probably won.

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Originally Posted by Freedom

I have him just inside my top ten at #10.

Two or three wins against decent opponents (Povetkin, Pulev, Fury, Price) and he'll be securely in the top ten on my list, about #8. And with four to six such wins, he can go even higher.

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Even taking their best potential upside into consideration, none of those guys really add to Wladimir's legacy because they're not all that great from a historical perspective. Would any of them beat Sharkey, Baer, Schmeling, Johansson, or Liston? Because that is the level of fighter guys like Dempsey, Louis, Ali, Holyfield, Foreman, Holmes, Marciano, Frazier, Johnson beat. It's a tough, tough list. In no fault of his own, Wladimir just hasn't faced that level of competition, and given his potential opponents, it's impossible. Now, with that said, Wladimir will end his career with over 60 wins. He definitely merits a high ranking, but top ten is tough in my opinion, given that his career-defining win is David Haye?

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Originally Posted by brocktonblockbust

Jack Dempsey and Jack Johnson can NEVER be ranked below the K Brothers.
Joe Louis and Muhammad Ali can NEVER be ranked below the K Brothers.
Lennox Lewis and Larry Holmes can NEVER be ranked below the K Brothers.
Mike Tyson and George Foreman can never EVER be ranked below the K Brothers.

So right there at the very BEST they could be ranked they are at #9 and #10. BUT...:)

A very VERY strong case can be easily made that:

Evander Holyfield, Rocky Marciano, Gene Tunney, Sam Langford, and Audley Harrison are ALL ranked ahead of the K Brothers.

Therefore the K Brothers cannot reasonably be ranked any higher than #12 and #13 on the All-Time Great Heavyweights. And I reckon a prime Jersey Joe Walcott' prime Sonny Liston, or even a prime Ingemaar Johanssen would've given them a Night of Hell and probably won.

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Other than Mike Tyson and Lennox Lewis, I agree with your assessment. Mike Tyson never really beat a prime top dog. What was his best win? Holmes at 38? To me, he's in a pretty similar situation to the Klitschko's, but what they have over him is longetivity.

With regard to Lewis, I have no problem ranking Vitali near Lewis, but I agree with you it shouldn't be ahead of him. Any way you cut it, Lewis struggled mightily with Vitali. When the fight ended, Vitali was winning. Lewis won though fair enough. but there is no argument that there was some big difference in class between Lewis and Vitali. In my opinion, the K-Bros should be ranked somewhere near Lewis, within five steps behind him. So, if you put Lewis outside the top ten, the K-Bros should be between 15-20, or something like that. Then again, that might be overestimating all three's ranking. It's a tough list to draft.

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Originally Posted by Rantcatrat

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Originally Posted by brocktonblockbust

Jack Dempsey and Jack Johnson can NEVER be ranked below the K Brothers.
Joe Louis and Muhammad Ali can NEVER be ranked below the K Brothers.
Lennox Lewis and Larry Holmes can NEVER be ranked below the K Brothers.
Mike Tyson and George Foreman can never EVER be ranked below the K Brothers.

So right there at the very BEST they could be ranked they are at #9 and #10. BUT...:)

A very VERY strong case can be easily made that:

Evander Holyfield, Rocky Marciano, Gene Tunney, Sam Langford, and Audley Harrison are ALL ranked ahead of the K Brothers.

Therefore the K Brothers cannot reasonably be ranked any higher than #12 and #13 on the All-Time Great Heavyweights. And I reckon a prime Jersey Joe Walcott' prime Sonny Liston, or even a prime Ingemaar Johanssen would've given them a Night of Hell and probably won.

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Other than Mike Tyson and Lennox Lewis, I agree with your assessment. Mike Tyson never really beat a prime top dog. What was his best win? Holmes at 38? To me, he's in a pretty similar situation to the Klitschko's, but what they have over him is longetivity.

With regard to Lewis, I have no problem ranking Vitali near Lewis, but I agree with you it shouldn't be ahead of him. Any way you cut it, Lewis struggled mightily with Vitali. When the fight ended, Vitali was winning. Lewis won though fair enough. but there is no argument that there was some big difference in class between Lewis and Vitali. In my opinion, the K-Bros should be ranked somewhere near Lewis, within five steps behind him. So, if you put Lewis outside the top ten, the K-Bros should be between 15-20, or something like that. Then again, that might be overestimating all three's ranking. It's a tough list to draft.

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Well said.

When you flip the table and look how every great fighters opponents will end up you kind of see the answer.

Looking back if vlad was that type of fighter he could have destroyed david haye if just had a bit more venom.

Vlad is a top 20 fighter for me.

Its not his fault he has these opponents but he could have finished them alot quicker.

Wlad's opponents have almost all been mismatches ... especially last year in 2012 ... an old cruiser (who he held for over half the fight), a 40 year old whom he already defeated, and a cheating punching bag??

Sam Peter, Chris Byrd, and Sultan Ibragimov are his best wins. I would've included Ruslan Chagaev but he was a hepatitis patient.

I not sure were i rate him but to be fair i feel any fighter from the 1900's to the 1960's would have major problems with some of Wlads best wins. I mean the size differences alone would a problem for some of the older fighters who were not very big. I mean Bryde, Sultan, Peter, Haye, and Chaagaev would cause some problems for people. Wald is very dominate so i not sure if he can fight any fighter we would consider great but when i look at other eras besides the 70's and 90's this era really not as bad as everyone thinks it is its just we have Wlad making it look that way. I mean Wtf is Holmes best win fucking old Norton, Shavers, Cooney, Maybe Mercer,and then there's a huge drop off in his wins but like other great champs he region on top.

If he keeps winning then high! Maybe top 10...

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Originally Posted by brocktonblockbust

Evander Holyfield, Rocky Marciano, Gene Tunney, Sam Langford, and Audley Harrison are all ranked ahead of the K Brothers.

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:rotflmao:

I assume u are being sarcastic.