When has Wlad taken a flush shot and survived? (Post video clips)

Lost between all this back and forth about who's better between the Alis, Foremans, Fraziers, Tysons, Lewises, and Wlads... is the ability to take a great punch and react well. Ali took hundreds of big shots throughout his career and took them well. Old Foreman got hit much more often than young Foreman... and took punches exceptionally well. Frazier did nothing but take punches so he could land his own. Tyson was rocked by big hitters, and always kept on fighting. Lewis got KO'ed twice (both were avenged). But he also engaged in wars with the likes of Vitali and others.

But what about Wlad? When has Wlad been truly tagged, and managed to survive and maybe even win the fight? Sam Peter? Is that the only example? Who else has tagged Wlad and not put his lights out?

Wlad doesn't get hit flush, because he rarely exposes himself enough to get hit.... and because most of his opponents are scared shitless as well. So it becomes a battle of jabs and/or pawing. If the opponent makes a crass mistake, Wlad may or may not pounce. But the pouncing is done in a defensive posture. Just in case the opponent has some life left in him.

Has Wlad proven his chin to the point where he can hang with the greats in that regard? If so, please post any video clips where Wlad is seen getting rocked, but survives the onslaught and comes back to take control of the fight.

Can't find a video since I'm on the phone but as defensively as haye fought with wlad I think he tagged him good in the fifth, wlad came back tagged him harder and at that point haye went all track suit, also think he got tagged in the twelfth against haye. Don't get me wrong wlads chin is far from even good but takes more than one punch to put his lights out.

I'd love to see those clips. I watched the fight the first time and cannot honestly remember Wlad getting hit with much of anything flush. This was the buildup to the fight... Haye's power versus Wlad's suspect chin. The fight was disappointing, to say the least, with an excrutiatingly low amount of punches thrown from both combatants. Then Haye gave us his injured toe story, and it all went downhill from there.

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

I'd love to see those clips. I watched the fight the first time and cannot honestly remember Wlad getting hit with much of anything flush. This was the buildup to the fight... Haye's power versus Wlad's suspect chin. The fight was disappointing, to say the least, with an excrutiatingly low amount of punches thrown from both combatants. Then Haye gave us his injured toe story, and it all went downhill from there.

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Outstanding amount of video being presented here;D

I also do not recall Haye doing anything either other then looking like a deer in the headlights for 36 minutes. That fight was a dud. Perhaps the first Peter fight when he was dropped 3 times but I don't remember a punch landing flush.

the 2 times I can remember were Sanders and Brewster, and we all know what happened there. To tell you the truth, Brewster only landed one good intial inside left hook, and wlad just flapped and flopped around like a seagull.

vit has a better beard as lewis really rocked him several monster shots and vit hung tough.

i could be wrong but i dont even remember wlad getting hit to cleanly in the Sam Peter 1 fight

everytime peter even came close wlad seemed to go down, i think haye hit him harder

its a while since i saw the peter fight mind and ive only seen it once

All boxers take punches in a fight but Wlad has perfected his style so that he does not get hit cleanly which is the name of the game. It is for the opponent to test Wlad’s chin and if they can not get to it and expose it then that is their fault and not Walds.

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Originally Posted by Master

All boxers take punches in a fight but Wlad has perfected his style so that he does not get hit cleanly which is the name of the game. It is for the opponent to test Wlad’s chin and if they can not get to it and expose it then that is their fault and not Walds.

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"Style" being the operative word here.
In Wlad's case, "style" is synonymous with "petrified avoidance of meaningful exchanges."

;D

I don't know what to think about this. Wlad is guilty of not finishing people off when it is well within his capability to do so and can often look flustered when rushed. In the Wach fight round 5 he looks at first glance to be flustered and backed up but when you watch the slow motion replay he avoids every punch and Wach only manages to catch him with his forearm. In the Haye fight despite peoples weird memories, Haye was gun shy but he did throw a handful of bombs at him in the early and late rounds but Wlad was able to either step back or use his skills to avoid a flush shot landing. He is a big guy who is hard to tag but he does look like a panicked Rabbit at times because he is wary of his chin. That does not mean he is glass jawed but a decent heavyweight with some pop could knock him out if they landed flush with a big bomb, but then that is true of nearly anyone in that class. For a big man he has fast hands and landing that flush shot is harder than it looks. It is also equally true that if he had more confidence in his own chin he could use those fast hands to knock most guys out in the first couple of rounds something he does not regularly do.

Let's compare Wlad with Lennox. Lewis was also a cautious fighter. By no means was he as reckless as a Mike Tyson, who would jump the opponent like a wild animal. (And as reckless and exciting as Mike was, he didn't just ignore defense. He used head movement as he came in for the kill). But Lennox was a more offensive-minded fighter than Wlad. Lennox would engage when he had to, or when he needed to get the guy out of there. I don't recall the same look of confused fear on Lennox's face as I've seen on Wlad when a flurry comes his way (which is extremely, extremely rare). Lennox's worst fight (that I saw) from a cautious standpoint was David Tua. Had Lennox fought more fights like that, I would've never watched. And Lewis got knocked out, also. It's not like he never tasted what that felt like. But he came back and avenged each knockout loss. Wlad seems to have been permanently affected by those early career knockouts and now will go to any lengths necessary to protect his chin. The funny thing is... most of his opponents come into the fight scared shitless as well. It makes for excrutiatingly boring boxing. Which in turn is why Wlad gets dumped on so much. He protects his fragile chin to an extreme... and his opponents make no sign of wanting to reach for that chin.

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

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Originally Posted by Master

All boxers take punches in a fight but Wlad has perfected his style so that he does not get hit cleanly which is the name of the game. It is for the opponent to test Wlad’s chin and if they can not get to it and expose it then that is their fault and not Walds.

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"Style" being the operative word here.
In Wlad's case, "style" is synonymous with "petrified avoidance of meaningful exchanges."

;D

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and kudos to him for making his opponents look silly round after round. Look I like a war in the ring as much as the next guy but heck I love boxing too. Wlad boxes very well, he's not silky smooth but he's purposeful.

In the fight against Chagaev Chagaev didn't hear the end-of-the-round bell (7th round) and managed to hit Klitschko (who already lowered his defense) with a full blast punch ("His best punch of the fight") and Klitschko hardly felt it.

Also in the fight against Tony Thompson Tony managed to hit him several times without any effect. Haye and Wach landed flush too.

Please stop reading for 5 seconds and actually think about the statement "Wladimir Klitschko is a multiple beltholder at SHW for years and has a glass jaw! This is so ridiculous if you think about it. NOBODY IN THE WORLD could be such a dominant world champion with a lack of chin.

This is IMPOSSIBLE. He would be exposed every couple of fights...

Aside from the 3 early losses Wlad WON the fights where he was knocked down: vs Sam Peter (Wlad won that fight), vs Davaryl Williamson (Wlad won that fight), vs Steve Pannell (Wlad won that fight).

In fact he performed so convincingly that NO ONE wants to see a rematch against ·Davaryl Williamson or ·Steve Pannell. The knock downs in the Williamson and Pannell fights are so irrelevant that haters and fans may not even know they happened..

Whatever you might think about his knockdowns and knockouts, in the meanwhile Wlad gave a rematch to Sam Peter and to Lamon Brewster. The rematches were very one-sided.

You have to allow boxers to LEARN.
There is something called PROGRESS.
You have to have a tolerance for PROCESSES.

Wlad was tagged several times by David Haye and took his power well.

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

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Originally Posted by Master

All boxers take punches in a fight but Wlad has perfected his style so that he does not get hit cleanly which is the name of the game. It is for the opponent to test Wlad’s chin and if they can not get to it and expose it then that is their fault and not Walds.

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"Style" being the operative word here.
In Wlad's case, "style" is synonymous with "petrified avoidance of meaningful exchanges."

;D

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Isn't it a bit of a double standard to describe Wlad's defense as "petrified avoidance of meaningful exchanges," yet describe other defensive fighters as having great defense?

The point of boxing is to hit and not be hit. If Wlad hasn't been hit flush in 8 years, doesn't that just mean he is very effective at his craft? He's not ever in grand ole' toss ups, like Golovkin, but he works with his strengths and minimizes his weaknesses, as good as anyone in the ring today.

@THE PHILOSOPHER - there can't really be a debate that as far as chins of heavyweight champions go, Wlad's isn't anywhere near the top of the list.

Wladiqueer is afraid of anything going near his chin

A featherweight could smash "the glass" if he got a clean power shot in

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Originally Posted by Rantcatrat

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

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Originally Posted by Master

All boxers take punches in a fight but Wlad has perfected his style so that he does not get hit cleanly which is the name of the game. It is for the opponent to test Wlad’s chin and if they can not get to it and expose it then that is their fault and not Walds.

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"Style" being the operative word here.
In Wlad's case, "style" is synonymous with "petrified avoidance of meaningful exchanges."

;D

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Isn't it a bit of a double standard to describe Wlad's defense as "petrified avoidance of meaningful exchanges," yet describe other defensive fighters as having great defense?

The point of boxing is to hit and not be hit. If Wlad hasn't been hit flush in 8 years, doesn't that just mean he is very effective at his craft? He's not ever in grand ole' toss ups, like Golovkin, but he works with his strengths and minimizes his weaknesses, as good as anyone in the ring today.

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@Rantcatrat, there's a fine line between being a defensive genius, and being downright scared of getting your chin touched. Defensive geniuses evade or block punches, and many times come right back with a counterpunch. There's a purpose behind the defense. You can see it in the boxer's body language. Let's go down a few weight divisions. Whitaker and Benitez were defensive wizards (much as Floyd is also). They artfully dodged the opponents' shots, but never looked scared or out of control. Their opponents weren't scared of them either, so most of the time they were on the offensive.

Wlad, maybe because he's been KO'ed several times, fights like he's deathly afraid of getting that chin tagged. He makes fights boring, because he's unwilling to pull the trigger when the opponent is there to be had. Exhibit A: the Sultan fight. That was possibly the worst HW fight in the history of boxing. Sultan unwilling to throw meaningful shots at Wlad... and Wlad pawing at Sultan, wary of the left hand. All frigging 12 rounds long. The very few times Wlad does get tagged, he seems out of control. His eyes widen as if to say: "Oh no... here we go again."

So no... I don't think it's a double standard at all. IMO, of course.

BTW, I've yet to see a video clip of Wlad getting hit flush and surviving to regain control of a fight.
Could it be because it's never happened?

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

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Originally Posted by Rantcatrat

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

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Originally Posted by Master

All boxers take punches in a fight but Wlad has perfected his style so that he does not get hit cleanly which is the name of the game. It is for the opponent to test Wlad’s chin and if they can not get to it and expose it then that is their fault and not Walds.

---

"Style" being the operative word here.
In Wlad's case, "style" is synonymous with "petrified avoidance of meaningful exchanges."

;D

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Isn't it a bit of a double standard to describe Wlad's defense as "petrified avoidance of meaningful exchanges," yet describe other defensive fighters as having great defense?

The point of boxing is to hit and not be hit. If Wlad hasn't been hit flush in 8 years, doesn't that just mean he is very effective at his craft? He's not ever in grand ole' toss ups, like Golovkin, but he works with his strengths and minimizes his weaknesses, as good as anyone in the ring today.

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@Rantcatrat, there's a fine line between being a defensive genius, and being downright scared of getting your chin touched. Defensive geniuses evade or block punches, and many times come right back with a counterpunch. There's a purpose behind the defense. You can see it in the boxer's body language. Let's go down a few weight divisions. Whitaker and Benitez were defensive wizards (much as Floyd is also). They artfully dodged the opponents' shots, but never looked scared or out of control. Their opponents weren't scared of them either, so most of the time they were on the offensive.

Wlad, maybe because he's been KO'ed several times, fights like he's deathly afraid of getting that chin tagged. He makes fights boring, because he's unwilling to pull the trigger when the opponent is there to be had. Exhibit A: the Sultan fight. That was possibly the worst HW fight in the history of boxing. Sultan unwilling to throw meaningful shots at Wlad... and Wlad pawing at Sultan, wary of the left hand. All frigging 12 rounds long. The very few times Wlad does get tagged, he seems out of control. His eyes widen as if to say: "Oh no... here we go again."

So no... I don't think it's a double standard at all. IMO, of course.

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There is a difference in the method of defense. I agree there is more skill involved with Locche's, Benvenuti's, or Floyd's defense. But, at its most elemental, defense means avoiding attack. The motivation behind both is to avoid punches. Both have the same result. Do you think Floyd's defense is for a different purpose? Wlad uses his natural advantages, length and reach, as his defense.

The point is that it is EFFECTIVE. Few have been able to penetrate it in 8 years.

As you saw in my other post, my friend, Wlad isn't going to win any "chin" contests. He also can't fight on the inside if you want to criticize him. But, he's developed a style that is damn effective, albeit boring at times.

Muhammad Ali has a chin. Larry Holmes has a chin. George Foreman has a chin. JOe Frazier has a chin. Wladimir Klitschko has fucking absolute bullshit. ENd of story. End of thread.

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Originally Posted by Rantcatrat

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

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Originally Posted by Rantcatrat

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

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Originally Posted by Master

All boxers take punches in a fight but Wlad has perfected his style so that he does not get hit cleanly which is the name of the game. It is for the opponent to test Wlad’s chin and if they can not get to it and expose it then that is their fault and not Walds.

---

"Style" being the operative word here.
In Wlad's case, "style" is synonymous with "petrified avoidance of meaningful exchanges."

;D

---

Isn't it a bit of a double standard to describe Wlad's defense as "petrified avoidance of meaningful exchanges," yet describe other defensive fighters as having great defense?

The point of boxing is to hit and not be hit. If Wlad hasn't been hit flush in 8 years, doesn't that just mean he is very effective at his craft? He's not ever in grand ole' toss ups, like Golovkin, but he works with his strengths and minimizes his weaknesses, as good as anyone in the ring today.

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@Rantcatrat , there's a fine line between being a defensive genius, and being downright scared of getting your chin touched. Defensive geniuses evade or block punches, and many times come right back with a counterpunch. There's a purpose behind the defense. You can see it in the boxer's body language. Let's go down a few weight divisions. Whitaker and Benitez were defensive wizards (much as Floyd is also). They artfully dodged the opponents' shots, but never looked scared or out of control. Their opponents weren't scared of them either, so most of the time they were on the offensive.

Wlad, maybe because he's been KO'ed several times, fights like he's deathly afraid of getting that chin tagged. He makes fights boring, because he's unwilling to pull the trigger when the opponent is there to be had. Exhibit A: the Sultan fight. That was possibly the worst HW fight in the history of boxing. Sultan unwilling to throw meaningful shots at Wlad... and Wlad pawing at Sultan, wary of the left hand. All frigging 12 rounds long. The very few times Wlad does get tagged, he seems out of control. His eyes widen as if to say: "Oh no... here we go again."

So no... I don't think it's a double standard at all. IMO, of course.

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There is a difference in the method of defense. I agree there is more skill involved with Locche's, Benvenuti's, or Floyd's defense. But, at its most elemental, defense means avoiding attack. The motivation behind both is to avoid punches. Both have the same result. Do you think Floyd's defense is for a different purpose? Wlad uses his natural advantages, length and reach, as his defense.

The point is that it is EFFECTIVE. Few have been able to penetrate it in 8 years.

As you saw in my other post, my friend, Wlad isn't going to win any "chin" contests. He also can't fight on the inside if you want to criticize him. But, he's developed a style that is damn effective, albeit boring at times.

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There is no argument against it being effective. It's been 17 fights and almost 9 years since his last knockout loss to Lamon Brewster. And you're right... the basic purpose of defense is to not get hit. No argument there either.

I think Wlad catches so much flak from fans because, let's face it... boxing is generally a fan-friendly sport. Most of us tune in not only to see good defense, but good offense as well. Personally, I'd rather watch a good chess match than to watch a fight where both combatants are reluctant to engage for fear of bodily harm. At least in a chess match I know what I'm going to get.

Don't get me wrong. I love good defensive fighters. Wilfred Benitez was the pride of Puerto Rico during his time, and I still love to watch his fights. Whitaker was a master at defense... yet he never looked scared. Floyd, regardless of his personality, is a joy to watch in the ring (in most, if not all, of his fights).

Point is... if you're employing your defense with a strategy to (at some point) engage and defeat your opponent, via knockout or just sheer domination... that's fine and admirable. But when you're just plain scared to death of getting tagged, while at the same time your opponent is (comically) just as scared of you... well... it just doesn't get any uglier than some of Wlad's fights in recent years.

Effective? Yes. Does he get his "W"? Yes. Is he amassing great "W-L" numbers? Absolutely. Is he giving fans what they expect out of a heavyweight fight? That, Rant, depends on which fans you ask.

Oh... I almost forgot to mention one very important point. Some Wlad fans claim he's not all that popular in the States because he's not American. That's a copout answer, IMO. In my opinion, Wlad isn't all that popular in the States because of his boring, defense-at-all-costs fighting style.

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Originally Posted by THE PHILOSOPHER

In the fight against Chagaev Chagaev didn't hear the end-of-the-round bell (7th round) and managed to hit Klitschko (who already lowered his defense) with a full blast punch ("His best punch of the fight") and Klitschko hardly felt it..

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This. First thing that sprung to mind when I read the thread title.

Here' the video - Shortly after 33:30

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_S7f3ZjCQ0

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

Lost between all this back and forth about who's better between the Alis, Foremans, Fraziers, Tysons, Lewises, and Wlads... is the ability to take a great punch and react well. Ali took hundreds of big shots throughout his career and took them well. Old Foreman got hit much more often than young Foreman... and took punches exceptionally well. Frazier did nothing but take punches so he could land his own. Tyson was rocked by big hitters, and always kept on fighting. Lewis got KO'ed twice (both were avenged). But he also engaged in wars with the likes of Vitali and others.

But what about Wlad? When has Wlad been truly tagged, and managed to survive and maybe even win the fight? Sam Peter? Is that the only example? Who else has tagged Wlad and not put his lights out?

Wlad doesn't get hit flush, because he rarely exposes himself enough to get hit.... and because most of his opponents are scared shitless as well. So it becomes a battle of jabs and/or pawing. If the opponent makes a crass mistake, Wlad may or may not pounce. But the pouncing is done in a defensive posture. Just in case the opponent has some life left in him.

Has Wlad proven his chin to the point where he can hang with the greats in that regard? If so, please post any video clips where Wlad is seen getting rocked, but survives the onslaught and comes back to take control of the fight.

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So are we saying he gets knocked out if he is caught flush ?
If that is true , then Wlad has the best defence in the history of boxing , because in 62 fights he has lost only 3.
Those stats alone say he is a defensive master , thats if you are saying he gets knocked out if he gets hit flush.

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Originally Posted by Dark Lord Al

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

Lost between all this back and forth about who's better between the Alis, Foremans, Fraziers, Tysons, Lewises, and Wlads... is the ability to take a great punch and react well. Ali took hundreds of big shots throughout his career and took them well. Old Foreman got hit much more often than young Foreman... and took punches exceptionally well. Frazier did nothing but take punches so he could land his own. Tyson was rocked by big hitters, and always kept on fighting. Lewis got KO'ed twice (both were avenged). But he also engaged in wars with the likes of Vitali and others.

But what about Wlad? When has Wlad been truly tagged, and managed to survive and maybe even win the fight? Sam Peter? Is that the only example? Who else has tagged Wlad and not put his lights out?

Wlad doesn't get hit flush, because he rarely exposes himself enough to get hit.... and because most of his opponents are scared shitless as well. So it becomes a battle of jabs and/or pawing. If the opponent makes a crass mistake, Wlad may or may not pounce. But the pouncing is done in a defensive posture. Just in case the opponent has some life left in him.

Has Wlad proven his chin to the point where he can hang with the greats in that regard? If so, please post any video clips where Wlad is seen getting rocked, but survives the onslaught and comes back to take control of the fight.

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So are we saying he gets knocked out if he is caught flush ?
If that is true , then Wlad has the best defence in the history of boxing , because in 62 fights he has lost only 3.
Those stats alone say he is a defensive master , thats if you are saying he gets knocked out if he gets hit flush.

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Indeed. His jab, jab, grab and lean defense has served his jello like chin well. He adapted and cured insomnia at the same time.

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

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Originally Posted by Dark Lord Al

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

Lost between all this back and forth about who's better between the Alis, Foremans, Fraziers, Tysons, Lewises, and Wlads... is the ability to take a great punch and react well. Ali took hundreds of big shots throughout his career and took them well. Old Foreman got hit much more often than young Foreman... and took punches exceptionally well. Frazier did nothing but take punches so he could land his own. Tyson was rocked by big hitters, and always kept on fighting. Lewis got KO'ed twice (both were avenged). But he also engaged in wars with the likes of Vitali and others.

But what about Wlad? When has Wlad been truly tagged, and managed to survive and maybe even win the fight? Sam Peter? Is that the only example? Who else has tagged Wlad and not put his lights out?

Wlad doesn't get hit flush, because he rarely exposes himself enough to get hit.... and because most of his opponents are scared shitless as well. So it becomes a battle of jabs and/or pawing. If the opponent makes a crass mistake, Wlad may or may not pounce. But the pouncing is done in a defensive posture. Just in case the opponent has some life left in him.

Has Wlad proven his chin to the point where he can hang with the greats in that regard? If so, please post any video clips where Wlad is seen getting rocked, but survives the onslaught and comes back to take control of the fight.

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So are we saying he gets knocked out if he is caught flush ?
If that is true , then Wlad has the best defence in the history of boxing , because in 62 fights he has lost only 3.
Those stats alone say he is a defensive master , thats if you are saying he gets knocked out if he gets hit flush.

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Indeed. His jab, jab, grab and lean defense has served his jello like chin well. He adapted and cured insomnia at the same time.

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I understand your point , but not getting hit and winning is part of boxing.

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Originally Posted by Dark Lord Al

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

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Originally Posted by Dark Lord Al

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

Lost between all this back and forth about who's better between the Alis, Foremans, Fraziers, Tysons, Lewises, and Wlads... is the ability to take a great punch and react well. Ali took hundreds of big shots throughout his career and took them well. Old Foreman got hit much more often than young Foreman... and took punches exceptionally well. Frazier did nothing but take punches so he could land his own. Tyson was rocked by big hitters, and always kept on fighting. Lewis got KO'ed twice (both were avenged). But he also engaged in wars with the likes of Vitali and others.

But what about Wlad? When has Wlad been truly tagged, and managed to survive and maybe even win the fight? Sam Peter? Is that the only example? Who else has tagged Wlad and not put his lights out?

Wlad doesn't get hit flush, because he rarely exposes himself enough to get hit.... and because most of his opponents are scared shitless as well. So it becomes a battle of jabs and/or pawing. If the opponent makes a crass mistake, Wlad may or may not pounce. But the pouncing is done in a defensive posture. Just in case the opponent has some life left in him.

Has Wlad proven his chin to the point where he can hang with the greats in that regard? If so, please post any video clips where Wlad is seen getting rocked, but survives the onslaught and comes back to take control of the fight.

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So are we saying he gets knocked out if he is caught flush ?
If that is true , then Wlad has the best defence in the history of boxing , because in 62 fights he has lost only 3.
Those stats alone say he is a defensive master , thats if you are saying he gets knocked out if he gets hit flush.

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Indeed. His jab, jab, grab and lean defense has served his jello like chin well. He adapted and cured insomnia at the same time.

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I understand your point , but not getting hit and winning is part of boxing.

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And I yours and fundamentally agree. The idea after-all is to hit and not get hit. Unfortunately for the spectator and because he has a chin that Locche could dent, Wlad has taken that ideal to a whole different level.

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

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Originally Posted by Dark Lord Al

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

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Originally Posted by Dark Lord Al

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

Lost between all this back and forth about who's better between the Alis, Foremans, Fraziers, Tysons, Lewises, and Wlads... is the ability to take a great punch and react well. Ali took hundreds of big shots throughout his career and took them well. Old Foreman got hit much more often than young Foreman... and took punches exceptionally well. Frazier did nothing but take punches so he could land his own. Tyson was rocked by big hitters, and always kept on fighting. Lewis got KO'ed twice (both were avenged). But he also engaged in wars with the likes of Vitali and others.

But what about Wlad? When has Wlad been truly tagged, and managed to survive and maybe even win the fight? Sam Peter? Is that the only example? Who else has tagged Wlad and not put his lights out?

Wlad doesn't get hit flush, because he rarely exposes himself enough to get hit.... and because most of his opponents are scared shitless as well. So it becomes a battle of jabs and/or pawing. If the opponent makes a crass mistake, Wlad may or may not pounce. But the pouncing is done in a defensive posture. Just in case the opponent has some life left in him.

Has Wlad proven his chin to the point where he can hang with the greats in that regard? If so, please post any video clips where Wlad is seen getting rocked, but survives the onslaught and comes back to take control of the fight.

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So are we saying he gets knocked out if he is caught flush ?
If that is true , then Wlad has the best defence in the history of boxing , because in 62 fights he has lost only 3.
Those stats alone say he is a defensive master , thats if you are saying he gets knocked out if he gets hit flush.

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Indeed. His jab, jab, grab and lean defense has served his jello like chin well. He adapted and cured insomnia at the same time.

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I understand your point , but not getting hit and winning is part of boxing.

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And I yours and fundamentally agree. The idea after-all is to hit and not get hit. Unfortunately for the spectator and because he has a chin that Locche could dent, Wlad has taken that ideal to a whole different level.

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That is true but if its in the rules its fair , yes it may be boring sometimes , but very effective.
I dont remember past champs thrilling us every minute.

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Originally Posted by Dark Lord Al

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

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Originally Posted by Dark Lord Al

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

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Originally Posted by Dark Lord Al

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

Lost between all this back and forth about who's better between the Alis, Foremans, Fraziers, Tysons, Lewises, and Wlads... is the ability to take a great punch and react well. Ali took hundreds of big shots throughout his career and took them well. Old Foreman got hit much more often than young Foreman... and took punches exceptionally well. Frazier did nothing but take punches so he could land his own. Tyson was rocked by big hitters, and always kept on fighting. Lewis got KO'ed twice (both were avenged). But he also engaged in wars with the likes of Vitali and others.

But what about Wlad? When has Wlad been truly tagged, and managed to survive and maybe even win the fight? Sam Peter? Is that the only example? Who else has tagged Wlad and not put his lights out?

Wlad doesn't get hit flush, because he rarely exposes himself enough to get hit.... and because most of his opponents are scared shitless as well. So it becomes a battle of jabs and/or pawing. If the opponent makes a crass mistake, Wlad may or may not pounce. But the pouncing is done in a defensive posture. Just in case the opponent has some life left in him.

Has Wlad proven his chin to the point where he can hang with the greats in that regard? If so, please post any video clips where Wlad is seen getting rocked, but survives the onslaught and comes back to take control of the fight.

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So are we saying he gets knocked out if he is caught flush ?
If that is true , then Wlad has the best defence in the history of boxing , because in 62 fights he has lost only 3.
Those stats alone say he is a defensive master , thats if you are saying he gets knocked out if he gets hit flush.

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Indeed. His jab, jab, grab and lean defense has served his jello like chin well. He adapted and cured insomnia at the same time.

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I understand your point , but not getting hit and winning is part of boxing.

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And I yours and fundamentally agree. The idea after-all is to hit and not get hit. Unfortunately for the spectator and because he has a chin that Locche could dent, Wlad has taken that ideal to a whole different level.

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That is true but if its in the rules its fair , yes it may be boring sometimes , but very effective.
I dont remember past champs thrilling us every minute.

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Nor I a heavyweight champion with his natural gifts and size that fought like him.

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

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Originally Posted by Dark Lord Al

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

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Originally Posted by Dark Lord Al

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

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Originally Posted by Dark Lord Al

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

Lost between all this back and forth about who's better between the Alis, Foremans, Fraziers, Tysons, Lewises, and Wlads... is the ability to take a great punch and react well. Ali took hundreds of big shots throughout his career and took them well. Old Foreman got hit much more often than young Foreman... and took punches exceptionally well. Frazier did nothing but take punches so he could land his own. Tyson was rocked by big hitters, and always kept on fighting. Lewis got KO'ed twice (both were avenged). But he also engaged in wars with the likes of Vitali and others.

But what about Wlad? When has Wlad been truly tagged, and managed to survive and maybe even win the fight? Sam Peter? Is that the only example? Who else has tagged Wlad and not put his lights out?

Wlad doesn't get hit flush, because he rarely exposes himself enough to get hit.... and because most of his opponents are scared shitless as well. So it becomes a battle of jabs and/or pawing. If the opponent makes a crass mistake, Wlad may or may not pounce. But the pouncing is done in a defensive posture. Just in case the opponent has some life left in him.

Has Wlad proven his chin to the point where he can hang with the greats in that regard? If so, please post any video clips where Wlad is seen getting rocked, but survives the onslaught and comes back to take control of the fight.

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So are we saying he gets knocked out if he is caught flush ?
If that is true , then Wlad has the best defence in the history of boxing , because in 62 fights he has lost only 3.
Those stats alone say he is a defensive master , thats if you are saying he gets knocked out if he gets hit flush.

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Indeed. His jab, jab, grab and lean defense has served his jello like chin well. He adapted and cured insomnia at the same time.

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I understand your point , but not getting hit and winning is part of boxing.

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And I yours and fundamentally agree. The idea after-all is to hit and not get hit. Unfortunately for the spectator and because he has a chin that Locche could dent, Wlad has taken that ideal to a whole different level.

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That is true but if its in the rules its fair , yes it may be boring sometimes , but very effective.
I dont remember past champs thrilling us every minute.

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Nor I a heavyweight champion with his natural gifts and size that fought like him.

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Also true Kevin , but as you have pointed out ,Wlad fights that way because if he didnt the first 7 rows of the crowd would be showered with glass the first big shot he took .

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Originally Posted by Dark Lord Al

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

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Originally Posted by Dark Lord Al

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

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Originally Posted by Dark Lord Al

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

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Originally Posted by Dark Lord Al

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

Lost between all this back and forth about who's better between the Alis, Foremans, Fraziers, Tysons, Lewises, and Wlads... is the ability to take a great punch and react well. Ali took hundreds of big shots throughout his career and took them well. Old Foreman got hit much more often than young Foreman... and took punches exceptionally well. Frazier did nothing but take punches so he could land his own. Tyson was rocked by big hitters, and always kept on fighting. Lewis got KO'ed twice (both were avenged). But he also engaged in wars with the likes of Vitali and others.

But what about Wlad? When has Wlad been truly tagged, and managed to survive and maybe even win the fight? Sam Peter? Is that the only example? Who else has tagged Wlad and not put his lights out?

Wlad doesn't get hit flush, because he rarely exposes himself enough to get hit.... and because most of his opponents are scared shitless as well. So it becomes a battle of jabs and/or pawing. If the opponent makes a crass mistake, Wlad may or may not pounce. But the pouncing is done in a defensive posture. Just in case the opponent has some life left in him.

Has Wlad proven his chin to the point where he can hang with the greats in that regard? If so, please post any video clips where Wlad is seen getting rocked, but survives the onslaught and comes back to take control of the fight.

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So are we saying he gets knocked out if he is caught flush ?
If that is true , then Wlad has the best defence in the history of boxing , because in 62 fights he has lost only 3.
Those stats alone say he is a defensive master , thats if you are saying he gets knocked out if he gets hit flush.

---

Indeed. His jab, jab, grab and lean defense has served his jello like chin well. He adapted and cured insomnia at the same time.

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I understand your point , but not getting hit and winning is part of boxing.

---

And I yours and fundamentally agree. The idea after-all is to hit and not get hit. Unfortunately for the spectator and because he has a chin that Locche could dent, Wlad has taken that ideal to a whole different level.

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That is true but if its in the rules its fair , yes it may be boring sometimes , but very effective.
I dont remember past champs thrilling us every minute.

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Nor I a heavyweight champion with his natural gifts and size that fought like him.

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Also true Kevin , but as you have pointed out ,Wlad fights that way because if he didnt the first 7 rows of the crowd would be showered with glass the first big shot he took .

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Point taken. Safe to say we both know what the other means. In the end its an answerable chicken vs the egg question. His defense if you want to call it that is a direct result of his punch resistance. If only Earnie Shavers fought that way. Its 2 a.m. bud so I gotta hit the sack.

Good chat.

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

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Originally Posted by Dark Lord Al

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

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Originally Posted by Dark Lord Al

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

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Originally Posted by Dark Lord Al

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

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Originally Posted by Dark Lord Al

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

Lost between all this back and forth about who's better between the Alis, Foremans, Fraziers, Tysons, Lewises, and Wlads... is the ability to take a great punch and react well. Ali took hundreds of big shots throughout his career and took them well. Old Foreman got hit much more often than young Foreman... and took punches exceptionally well. Frazier did nothing but take punches so he could land his own. Tyson was rocked by big hitters, and always kept on fighting. Lewis got KO'ed twice (both were avenged). But he also engaged in wars with the likes of Vitali and others.

But what about Wlad? When has Wlad been truly tagged, and managed to survive and maybe even win the fight? Sam Peter? Is that the only example? Who else has tagged Wlad and not put his lights out?

Wlad doesn't get hit flush, because he rarely exposes himself enough to get hit.... and because most of his opponents are scared shitless as well. So it becomes a battle of jabs and/or pawing. If the opponent makes a crass mistake, Wlad may or may not pounce. But the pouncing is done in a defensive posture. Just in case the opponent has some life left in him.

Has Wlad proven his chin to the point where he can hang with the greats in that regard? If so, please post any video clips where Wlad is seen getting rocked, but survives the onslaught and comes back to take control of the fight.

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So are we saying he gets knocked out if he is caught flush ?
If that is true , then Wlad has the best defence in the history of boxing , because in 62 fights he has lost only 3.
Those stats alone say he is a defensive master , thats if you are saying he gets knocked out if he gets hit flush.

---

Indeed. His jab, jab, grab and lean defense has served his jello like chin well. He adapted and cured insomnia at the same time.

---

I understand your point , but not getting hit and winning is part of boxing.

---

And I yours and fundamentally agree. The idea after-all is to hit and not get hit. Unfortunately for the spectator and because he has a chin that Locche could dent, Wlad has taken that ideal to a whole different level.

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That is true but if its in the rules its fair , yes it may be boring sometimes , but very effective.
I dont remember past champs thrilling us every minute.

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Nor I a heavyweight champion with his natural gifts and size that fought like him.

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Also true Kevin , but as you have pointed out ,Wlad fights that way because if he didnt the first 7 rows of the crowd would be showered with glass the first big shot he took .

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Point taken. Safe to say we both know what the other means. In the end its an answerable chicken vs the egg question. His defense if you want to call it that is a direct result of his punch resistance. If only Earnie Shavers fought that way. Its 2 a.m. bud so I gotta hit the sack.

Good chat.

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Which all makes for a good, effective heavyweight champion... but one who does not spark the interest in the fans that would make the HW division the crowning jewel of boxing, as it has been in years past. Again, defense in order to ply your offense is different from defense by being scared shitless of someone touching your chin.

There are different ways of "not getting hit".

I saw an old fight between Roberto Duran and some bloke named Lou Bizarro, in Bizarro's hometown. The crowd was going wild, because Bizarro ran for 14 fucking rounds, refusing to even appear to want to engage Duran. Whenever Duran got within striking distance, the scared Bizarro would grab and hold on for dear life. All the crowd was interested in was that Bizarro was lasting the whole fight with the great Duran. Eventually, Duran caught up with Bizarro and the little fucker had nowhere to go. Duran knocked him out, and could be clearly seen waving off the prone Bizarro in disgust.

Did Bizarro employ effective defense through 14 rounds of the fight? I said effective defense. As in "not getting hit". Well... yes. Was it crowd-pleasing? Fuck no. (Well, unless you were from Erie, Pennsylvania... or Italian).

Master defensive fighters are to be admired. Pernell Whitaker, Wilfredo Benitez, Floyd Mayweather. But they are/were there to fight and defeat their opponent. They don't/didn't cringe from engaging for fear of getting tagged.

You see, Wlad knows his chin ain't shit. He knows one good shot and he'll be laid out. What did Ali used to do? He would lean back, let the punch sail by, and throw a counter of his own. Same with Floyd and his shoulder roll. Something's coming back at you.

Wlad is blessed with height and long arms. So he'll stand at a safe distance and paw... looking for a safe opening. If there's even a 5% chance he could get hit in return, he's perfectly willing to keep pawing for the full 12. Unfortunately, most of his opponents are only too content to go the 12 rounds and collect the paycheck. If, by any freak of nature, an opponent unleashes anything that remotely resembles a flurry... Wlad will use his long arms to deflect the punches, while taking long steps back with a wide-eyed look on his face. Any thought of counter-punching is far from his mind. When the danger is over, it's back to business as usual.

Effective, but not crowd-pleasing.

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

There are different ways of "not getting hit".

I saw an old fight between Roberto Duran and some bloke named Lou Bizarro, in Bizarro's hometown. The crowd was going wild, because Bizarro ran for 14 fucking rounds, refusing to even appear to want to engage Duran. Whenever Duran got within striking distance, the scared Bizarro would grab and hold on for dear life. All the crowd was interested in was that Bizarro was lasting the whole fight with the great Duran. Eventually, Duran caught up with Bizarro and the little fucker had nowhere to go. Duran knocked him out, and could be clearly seen waving off the prone Bizarro in disgust.

Did Bizarro employ effective defense through 14 rounds of the fight? I said effective defense. As in "not getting hit". Well... yes. Was it crowd-pleasing? Fuck no. (Well, unless you were from Erie, Pennsylvania... or Italian).

Master defensive fighters are to be admired. Pernell Whitaker, Wilfredo Benitez, Floyd Mayweather. But they are/were there to fight and defeat their opponent. They don't/didn't cringe from engaging for fear of getting tagged.

You see, Wlad knows his chin ain't shit. He knows one good shot and he'll be laid out. What did Ali used to do? He would lean back, let the punch sail by, and throw a counter of his own. Same with Floyd and his shoulder roll. Something's coming back at you.

Wlad is blessed with height and long arms. So he'll stand at a safe distance and paw... looking for a safe opening. If there's even a 5% chance he could get hit in return, he's perfectly willing to keep pawing for the full 12. Unfortunately, most of his opponents are only too content to go the 12 rounds and collect the paycheck. If, by any freak of nature, an opponent unleashes anything that remotely resembles a flurry... Wlad will use his long arms to deflect the punches, while taking long steps back with a wide-eyed look on his face. Any thought of counter-punching is far from his mind. When the danger is over, it's back to business as usual.

Effective, but not crowd-pleasing.

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@TitoFan
I completely hear your point. It would be a losing argument for me to say that Wladimir's defense is fun to watch. Never mind if it is effective. He's not making people miss to set up a counter or leading people into shots. He's using reach and length. By the way, if you like defensive fighters, you should check out videos of Locche and Pep.

@TitoFan - one more thing that you should consider is that Wladimir has an insanely high KO ratio. So, it's not like he is carrying opponents to win on the cards because he doesn't ever engage. He engages, just at his own, measured, deliberate pace, which I agree, can be hard to tolerate. Come to think of it, the only person recently to last with Wladimir is David Haye, and that's because Haye ran the whole night and made it a Wlad fight even more boring than it typically is.

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Originally Posted by Rantcatrat

@TitoFan - one more thing that you should consider is that Wladimir has an insanely high KO ratio. So, it's not like he is carrying opponents to win on the cards because he doesn't ever engage. He engages, just at his own, measured, deliberate pace, which I agree, can be hard to tolerate. Come to think of it, the only person recently to last with Wladimir is David Haye, and that's because Haye ran the whole night and made it a Wlad fight even more boring than it typically is.

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You sound like Larry Merchant. Who ignored Wlad using his elbows to push him down all night. It is simply not true that David Haye ran the whole night. People who believed Hayes overhyped predictions and brought those preconceptions into the fight keep saying this but if you watch the ACTUAL fight you will see Haye try and throw plenty of bombs and mostly fail to connect. At one point he leaps up and therefore carries no power in his punch and at many other points he tries to rush in and throw punches only to be smothered or pushed down. He did not knock out Wlad because it was much harder than he anticipated, but at no point was a man so much shorter and two stones lighter ever going to stand toe to toe with him. Wlad is much harder to hit than it appears and Haye now knows that. If he is still fighting when a similarly well conditioned man of his own huge stature with good boxing skills and big KO power meets him, he is in big trouble. Price is that man and Wlads days as champ are numbered.

Wlad is very cautious bordering on boring. he is like a cat killing a mice very slowly and deliberately just in case he gets bit on the nose.

Rocky Marciano was the One.

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

Master defensive fighters are to be admired. Pernell Whitaker, Wilfredo Benitez, Floyd Mayweather. But they are/were there to fight and defeat their opponent. They don't/didn't cringe from engaging for fear of getting tagged.

You see, Wlad knows his chin ain't shit. He knows one good shot and he'll be laid out. What did Ali used to do? He would lean back, let the punch sail by, and throw a counter of his own. Same with Floyd and his shoulder roll. Something's coming back at you.

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A few issues with your post:

1) I find it odd that we're saying a guy with 50 KO's in 59 wins doesn't come to fight and defeat his opponents, but guys like Pernell Whitaker (37% KO ratio), Benitez (50% KO ratio) and Mayweather (60% KO ratio) do.

2) I think it's unfair to compare the defensive behaviours of Wladimir, a 6'7'' 250lb guy fighting in the Heavyweight division, with the defensive behaviours of smaller guys like Whitaker, Benitez and Mayweather.

a) Heavyweights obviously hit with a lot more force than a welterweight, so standing in front of a heavyweight and utilizing risky infighting defense is often not conducive with success, especially when we're talking about a guy who is often 5-7 inches taller than his opponent.

b) Smaller guys are obviously a lot more agile than 6'7'' giants, so using quick head movement/slick countering/ect is more commonplace in those weight divisions.

c) Pernell, Mayweather and Benitez were (and are) very much "safety first" guys. Like Wlad, they chose their punches wisely and rarely ever got out of their comfort zones.

3. I think it's hypocritical to slam Wlad's defense and praise Ali. When it comes to Ali, people seem to remember his career in convenient HL reels: him KOing Foreman, beating down Liston, duking it out with Frazier in Manilla. Truth is, Ali stunk out plenty of arenas with his dancing, "jab and run" style. People remember the first and third Frazier fight, but no one seems to recall the 2nd fight where Ali pioneered the "jab and grab" style (later perfected by John Ruiz) and put everyone to sleep. Ali had a great beard, but hated to get hit (like any rational human being) and largely fought a "safety first" style. Same as Wlad.

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Originally Posted by Greenbeanz

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Originally Posted by Rantcatrat

@TitoFan - one more thing that you should consider is that Wladimir has an insanely high KO ratio. So, it's not like he is carrying opponents to win on the cards because he doesn't ever engage. He engages, just at his own, measured, deliberate pace, which I agree, can be hard to tolerate. Come to think of it, the only person recently to last with Wladimir is David Haye, and that's because Haye ran the whole night and made it a Wlad fight even more boring than it typically is.

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You sound like Larry Merchant. Who ignored Wlad using his elbows to push him down all night. It is simply not true that David Haye ran the whole night. People who believed Hayes overhyped predictions and brought those preconceptions into the fight keep saying this but if you watch the ACTUAL fight you will see Haye try and throw plenty of bombs and mostly fail to connect. At one point he leaps up and therefore carries no power in his punch and at many other points he tries to rush in and throw punches only to be smothered or pushed down. He did not knock out Wlad because it was much harder than he anticipated, but at no point was a man so much shorter and two stones lighter ever going to stand toe to toe with him. Wlad is much harder to hit than it appears and Haye now knows that. If he is still fighting when a similarly well conditioned man of his own huge stature with good boxing skills and big KO power meets him, he is in big trouble. Price is that man and Wlads days as champ are numbered.

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There is no point to this argument because we've had it before. We can agree to disagree. In my opinion, clearly not shared by you, Haye talked more crap than anyone since Tyson told Lewis he would eat his children. Then on the biggest stage in his career, Haye turned in a crap performance. Maybe if Haye hadn't told everyone that would listen he would decapitate Wlad, we wouldn't have expected an engaging fight because of their size difference. We had a right to be disappointed after Haye's pre-fight antics. Afterward, he blamed his lack of fight on his big toe. Really, that is all that needs to be said about that.

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Originally Posted by Rantcatrat

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Originally Posted by Greenbeanz

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Originally Posted by Rantcatrat

@TitoFan - one more thing that you should consider is that Wladimir has an insanely high KO ratio. So, it's not like he is carrying opponents to win on the cards because he doesn't ever engage. He engages, just at his own, measured, deliberate pace, which I agree, can be hard to tolerate. Come to think of it, the only person recently to last with Wladimir is David Haye, and that's because Haye ran the whole night and made it a Wlad fight even more boring than it typically is.

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You sound like Larry Merchant. Who ignored Wlad using his elbows to push him down all night. It is simply not true that David Haye ran the whole night. People who believed Hayes overhyped predictions and brought those preconceptions into the fight keep saying this but if you watch the ACTUAL fight you will see Haye try and throw plenty of bombs and mostly fail to connect. At one point he leaps up and therefore carries no power in his punch and at many other points he tries to rush in and throw punches only to be smothered or pushed down. He did not knock out Wlad because it was much harder than he anticipated, but at no point was a man so much shorter and two stones lighter ever going to stand toe to toe with him. Wlad is much harder to hit than it appears and Haye now knows that. If he is still fighting when a similarly well conditioned man of his own huge stature with good boxing skills and big KO power meets him, he is in big trouble. Price is that man and Wlads days as champ are numbered.

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There is no point to this argument because we've had it before. We can agree to disagree. In my opinion, clearly not shared by you, Haye talked more crap than anyone since Tyson told Lewis he would eat his children. Then on the biggest stage in his career, Haye turned in a crap performance. Maybe if Haye hadn't told everyone that would listen he would decapitate Wlad, we wouldn't have expected an engaging fight because of their size difference. We had a right to be disappointed after Haye's pre-fight antics. Afterward, he blamed his lack of fight on his big toe. Really, that is all that needs to be said about that.

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Haye jammed out. For all his yacking he looked like a child in the ring in need of a wet nurse and he had me fooled completely before the fight that he was going to decapitate Wlad.