Muhammad Ali and the wins that should never have been.

There has been a lot of Ali talk this last week or so, now I'm not a huge fan of his but I don't really dislike him either.

I decided to keep this theme going by pointing out some stuff that you already know or don't and can debate with me.

1. George Foreman had idiots in his corner!
I believe that all they had to do was tell him to slow the fuck DOWN. If he just relaxed a bit he could have cake walked to the decision. At least that is my view.
Now Ali was hitting him and started the first 2 rounds with right hand leads but his punch output rapidly decreased.

Agree?

2. Joe Fraizer won the Thrilla in Manilla!
Ali walked to his corner and asked Dundee to cut his gloves off while Fraizer protested with his trainer to let him continue fighting.
The reason Ali won? Either Futch (Frazier trainer) was louder than Dundee to alert the ref or the ref just happened to be closer to Futch, I don't recall Padillas (the ref) position at the time.

Agree?

Can’t agree with either take. Foreman never bothered with boxing skill until after his hiatus post Young so when he entered the Ali fight the heavy favourite it was based on all the clubbing’s he doled out prior to that. He would simply trap and over power his opponents. Guys like Frazier and Norton volunteered to fight Foremans fight and we all know what happened. Ali used the ring, dazzled him with speed and frustrated the hell out of him by refusing to stand still. Foremans punches looked like they were in slow motion and were at many times open handed thrown from the parking lot. Masterful performance by Ali who also took Foremans head out of the fight before the bell rang to start the contest.

The Thrilla in Manilla is a very fan friendly fight and I can’t even guess how many times I have watched it over the years but it wasn’t really that close. The cards were and are indicative of the fight I watched and I was a huge Frazier fan. Prior to the stoppage the scores were 166-160,166-162,167-162.

If people want to watch a fight that Ali lost but won then they need to watch the Jimmy Young fight. Time and time again I can’t give Ali more then three rounds. The Doug Jones fight is another close one regardless of LoScalzo’s lopsided card.

I can't agree with either. I don't like talking about would have's, could have's and should have's. Boxing is all about results. There's no do-overs. Two guys go into the ring, whoever is the better man that night wins (barring a BS decision).

Foreman blew his load and got KO'd. Frazier and Ali played chicken and Frazier's corner pulled up first, even if it was just a matter of seconds in difference. That's boxing, they came up short. Every top fighter who's ever lost has a "should have".

I think the wins that should be focused on are the Ken Norton robberies (Norton had Ali's number) and cutting of the glove/smelling salts used to revive him in the Cooper fight.

I agree with you both, this isn't a "they should have" it's more of a "in hindsight".

I mean I do believe if foreman just took a few steps back, he would of had Ali.

Same with the Fraizer one, it annoys me that they called it at the 14th, I mean he was blind how long? Just a nod from Futch and Frazier won it.

But again I agree with you both.

I agree I'd take Foreman in a rematch immediately after. Hindsight is 20/20 I guess.

In his book, he claimed he was poisoned and that Ali's people had the ropes loosened to Ali could lay on them. Can't blame him for being full of excuses, it must have really hurt is pride to get played like a fool.

And to me, Frazier going that hard against Ali blind in one eye and with his blood pressure issues, that's a victory in itself.

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Originally Posted by Beanflicker

I agree I'd take Foreman in a rematch immediately after. Hindsight is 20/20 I guess.

In his book, he claimed he was poisoned and that Ali's people had the ropes loosened to Ali could lay on them. Can't blame him for being full of excuses, it must have really hurt is pride to get played like a fool.

And to me, Frazier going that hard against Ali blind in one eye and with his blood pressure issues, that's a victory in itself.

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Yeah totally, but imagine how he felt finding out that Ali was gonna call it a day, where wanted to go on. That musta been a big issue as to why he resented him.

Big George was made to look foolish even in the early rounds before the rope a dope began, Ali continually stuck it to him and big George just relied totally on his brute strength to get him through and by round 8 he was spent, Ali was well ahead at the time of the KO. I don't think George would've beaten him in a rematch either, i believe that sometimes fighters meet their nemesis and big George was a perfect match for Ali.

The Thriller In Manila was exhausting for both fighters and the only way i can believe Ali would want to quit was of exhaustion, it was very hot there that day. Frazier was a ghastly mess and his face was all busted up. It was a good call to stop it. Both men should've retired after this fight.

Ali's questionable wins remain to this day the Norton fights!

Big George did say that if he fought the fight again he would have simply used his jab more and paced himself better with the experience he gained after. At the time I think Ali would have won the rematch too.

Fraiser's corner did the right thing, no way was Angelo going to give the fight up with 1 round to go. Remember Ali wanted to retire after the Liston fight because they put something in his eye and Angelo did not let him.

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Originally Posted by THE THIRD MAN

Big George was made to look foolish even in the early rounds before the rope a dope began, Ali continually stuck it to him and big George just relied totally on his brute strength to get him through and by round 8 he was spent, Ali was well ahead at the time of the KO. I don't think George would've beaten him in a rematch either, i believe that sometimes fighters meet their nemesis and big George was a perfect match for Ali.

The Thriller In Manila was exhausting for both fighters and the only way i can believe Ali would want to quit was of exhaustion, it was very hot there that day. Frazier was a ghastly mess and his face was all busted up. It was a good call to stop it. Both men should've retired after this fight.

Ali's questionable wins remain to this day the Norton fights!

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I don't care what anyone says but there's no way Ali won there 3rd fight, just look at both fighters after the fight. Norton is yelling at him like he's the winner, while Ali looks like a beaten fighter laying over in the corner.

Muhammad Ali has had a few questionable decisions.

Doug Jones
Earnie Shavers
Jimmy Young
Ken Norton

But to be fair to Ali 3 of those decision's were past his prime, and he was especially way over weight vs Jimmy Young. But then again thats no excuse if you lose a fight then you lose a fight, thats your problem you shouldn't be given the benefit of the doubt because you didn't train properly.

But Muhammad Ali didn't duck anyone and when your facing top opposition all the time, your bound to have a few close decision's here and there.

ali shoulda quitr after the thrilla in manila

Does anybody remember his fight with Ron Lyle? Stopped in the 11th, I think, and I have always thought it was a bad stop, but then I haven't seen it since it happened. Anybody remeber?

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Originally Posted by greynotsoold

Does anybody remember his fight with Ron Lyle? Stopped in the 11th, I think, and I have always thought it was a bad stop, but then I haven't seen it since it happened. Anybody remeber?

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jKCxMJdc-Q

Lyle gets hit and does not throw another punch back for the final 42 seconds and was getting pummeled.

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Originally Posted by ICB

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Originally Posted by THE THIRD MAN

Big George was made to look foolish even in the early rounds before the rope a dope began, Ali continually stuck it to him and big George just relied totally on his brute strength to get him through and by round 8 he was spent, Ali was well ahead at the time of the KO. I don't think George would've beaten him in a rematch either, i believe that sometimes fighters meet their nemesis and big George was a perfect match for Ali.

The Thriller In Manila was exhausting for both fighters and the only way i can believe Ali would want to quit was of exhaustion, it was very hot there that day. Frazier was a ghastly mess and his face was all busted up. It was a good call to stop it. Both men should've retired after this fight.

Ali's questionable wins remain to this day the Norton fights!

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I don't care what anyone says but there's no way Ali won there 3rd fight, just look at both fighters after the fight. Norton is yelling at him like he's the winner, while Ali looks like a beaten fighter laying over in the corner.

Muhammad Ali has had a few questionable decisions.

Doug Jones
Earnie Shavers
Jimmy Young
Ken Norton

But to be fair to Ali 3 of those decision's were past his prime, and he was especially way over weight vs Jimmy Young. But then again thats no excuse if you lose a fight then you lose a fight, thats your problem you shouldn't be given the benefit of the doubt because you didn't train properly.

But Muhammad Ali didn't duck anyone and when your facing top opposition all the time, your bound to have a few close decision's here and there.

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The scoring at the end of the 14th round was: referee: Carlos Padilla 66-60, judge: Larry Nadayag 66-62, judge: Alfredo Quiazon 67-62.

I reckon they were on the mark. As for the fight itself, it was brutal, a war. But Ali was safely ahead on all three scorecards and really hammering Joe in the 13th and 14th rounds. So even if Ali did say “take the gloves off” at the end of the 14th, I don’t think he ever would have quit, and the record shows his trainer Angelo Dundee would never have let him quit. Of course Ali won the 3rd fight Ali, he won because Smokin' Joe didn’t come out for the last round, which I think was a humane move by his trainer, Eddie Futch. Of course, Frazier wouldn’t quit under any circumstances short of death. But he literally couldn’t see, which is a disadvantage when people are trying to knock your head off. Sadly this fight affected both men for the rest of their lives.

If you want to narrow it down to one fight then show me a round by round Jimmy Young card. I would like to know how any serious fight fan could award that to Ali. Break it down for me round by round.

Yeah the Young fight should of never been a victory

FWIW, I've always thought Big George 'should' have won, but he fought a stupid fight and let Ali psych him out. I'm not taking anything away from Ali, he had a brilliant plan, just sayin' it was George's fight to win and he blew it.

As for Frazier - Ali III, that was just painful to watch, as far as i'm concerned, there was no winner, both pugs lost.

Look, Ali was ahead when he KO'd Foreman so he was doing a lot more than lying on ropes. Nothing dodgy about it, Ali won.

Manila? The correct call by Futch. Ali was ahead and Joe needed a KO which he was in no state to deliver.

Jimmy Young? A terrible terrible fight that,if possible, no man deserved to win. Young hung out the ropes, showed no williness to go grab the title and Ali wasnt much better. Certainly not a robbery.

Norton 3. If kenny got the nod i could not have argued as it was close,HOWEVER, close decisions do not equate to robbery. It was tight, but thats it. No robbery here.

Doug Jones. Again, same kinda scenario as norton 3 only not as much of an argument as kenny may have had. I gave Ali 6 rounds to 4 the 3 or 4 times ive watched it and thats giving Jones every benifit of doubt. Again, a close fight but certainly no robbery.

Shavers? Again, no robbery.

In my opinion a robbery is when a fighter CLEARLY wins a fight and doesnt get the decision. None of the above fights fit that bill. Yes some where close. Yes, one could not have argued if the decision went the other way in 2 of them, but again, a close fight does not equate to robbery

i think if foreman and ali fought at the time they did 100 times foreman would have won a vast majority of them

i just think ali caught him at exactly the right time and in exactly the right place

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Originally Posted by johnmaff36

Jimmy Young? A terrible terrible fight that,if possible, no man deserved to win. Young hung out the ropes, showed no williness to go grab the title and Ali wasnt much better. Certainly not a robbery

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Whata crock.

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

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Originally Posted by johnmaff36

Jimmy Young? A terrible terrible fight that,if possible, no man deserved to win. Young hung out the ropes, showed no williness to go grab the title and Ali wasnt much better. Certainly not a robbery

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Whata crock.

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care to elaborate?

Ali was the greatest because of his character :) Bet he is our hero

The "idiot" in Georges corner was Legendary "Archie Moore" thank you for your expert observation hahahaha!!! The thriller was Ali's fight at the end and Joe needed a KO to win, simple as that. It was a struggle for both men who were natural foes from years gone by! They had that special match up of "Styles" that produced great competion! Ray.

ali was indeed a overrated fighter. he was a good person but not the boxer he is made out to be. he had to work real hard and sacrifice his health. he just made it appear easy for himself.

This thread is about fights that Ali won that perhaps he should not have and just because I think Young beat him and Doug Jones gave him issues does not mean that I think they are better fighters. Jimmy Young is probably the best heavyweight to never win a title. One of the most technically savvy fighters of all time and underrated like no other.

@mzsk2003

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ali was indeed a overrated fighter

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Who happened to dominate the most competitive heavyweight era of all time.

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Originally Posted by johnmaff36

Look, Ali was ahead when he KO'd Foreman so he was doing a lot more than lying on ropes. Nothing dodgy about it, Ali won.

Manila? The correct call by Futch. Ali was ahead and Joe needed a KO which he was in no state to deliver.

Jimmy Young? A terrible terrible fight that,if possible, no man deserved to win. Young hung out the ropes, showed no williness to go grab the title and Ali wasnt much better. Certainly not a robbery.

Norton 3. If kenny got the nod i could not have argued as it was close,HOWEVER, close decisions do not equate to robbery. It was tight, but thats it. No robbery here.

Doug Jones. Again, same kinda scenario as norton 3 only not as much of an argument as kenny may have had. I gave Ali 6 rounds to 4 the 3 or 4 times ive watched it and thats giving Jones every benifit of doubt. Again, a close fight but certainly no robbery.

Shavers? Again, no robbery.

In my opinion a robbery is when a fighter CLEARLY wins a fight and doesnt get the decision. None of the above fights fit that bill. Yes some where close. Yes, one could not have argued if the decision went the other way in 2 of them, but again, a close fight does not equate to robbery

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Good post.

Norton and Jones were close fights but as we know the challenger has to take the title and in close decisions the champ usually get's it. It was hardly Roy Jones 88 Olympics type robbery

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Originally Posted by mzsk2003

ali was indeed a overrated fighter. he was a good person but not the boxer he is made out to be. he had to work real hard and sacrifice his health. he just made it appear easy for himself.

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Not a good first post mate. Ali may have worked hard but he had talent to go with it which is the reason why he achieved so much.

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Originally Posted by mzsk2003

ali was indeed a overrated fighter. he was a good person but not the boxer he is made out to be. he had to work real hard and sacrifice his health. he just made it appear easy for himself.

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He has the best resume ever at heavyweight !!!!:o

He has Liston, patterson, frazier, ellis, foreman, Norton, Terrell, and to a lesser degree, Spinks all heavyweight champions and 12 wins outta 15 against them
He fought Quarry, Foster,Shavers, Cooper, Bugner, Young, Lyle, Bonavena and has 11 wins outts 11 against them.

Thats before even mentioning doug jones, cleveland williams, chuvalo and Folley.

He knocked out Foreman, something nobody could even do when he was fighting in his mid-late 40s

He knocked out Bonavena, something nobody else could do, Frazier couldnt do it in 2 fights.

A 3 time heavyweight champ who lost 5 times in 21yrs as a pro, 3 of which came in his last 4 fights when he was showing the early stages of parkinsons, so that gives him 2 losses in his first 18yrs as a pro and against all those names above.


Yeah, a real overated fighter alright;)