Who wins and why?
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Who wins and why?
I think Duran puts on the pressure but Whitaker is quick enough to avoid a lot of big shots.
Duran wins with workout out put and pressure in a close decision.
Asmuch as I like Duran, I think Sweet P would have his number. He is too slick and has a good chin. I think he would win a comfortable decision.
Duran by KO. A prime Duran at Lightweight was inhuman...
Nowadays, people judge Duran by the high-profile 80s fights at welter, middle, super-middle even, but he was old and faded and fighting way out of his weight-class though he still was a top competitor.
For 12 years, from 1968 till 1980, the prime Duran was smashing the living $#!t out of everybody.
135 lb Champ in 1972, the Great run culminated in 1980 by going up 12 lbs to 147 and defeating a prime undefeated Sugar Ray Leonard in a 15 rd battle.
Duran was 71 wins and 1 loss (avenged), 55 KOs going into that 1st Ray Leonard fight.
Couldn't have said it better.Quote:
Originally Posted by bradlee180
I think Sweet Pea would have solved the Duran puzzle early and pulled out the decision. Or maybe a No Mas part 2.
Duran was a very smart fighter throughout his career. At LW he also had great stamina, punching power, and didn't believe he could lose. Whitaker couldn't punch with him and Duran was smarter than Whitaker was when he fought at 135 (and probably throughout Whitaker's career). When Whitaker tried his (illegal) showboating tricks like getting real low or grabbing Duran's legs, Duran would punch through it, he wouldn't stand for that nonsense.
Whitaker was almost dropped by Pendleton, McGirt, and I believe Mayweather did drop him. Duran rough-houses him, beats him up and knocks him out all in 7-9 rounds.
Duran points in a close fight, both great fighters but Duran had power and with the intelligent aggression would have given him the decision.
Sweet Pea fucked up Chavez!
Cocaine f*<ked up Sweet Pea!
Duran was the Lightweight king in the 70's, he fought 3 epic battles with Esteben De Jesus who in any other era would've been regarded as a great Lightweight Champion. By the time he fought Sugar Ray Leonard he was already 71-1 and that is a huge amount of boxing. It was an amazing performance and probably the last time we ever saw Duran at his peak. Don't judge him for his efforts in the 80's when he is over 30 and past his best. The previous 10 years were devastating.
As much as i like Sweet Pea i just don't think he could've held Duran off for 15 rounds and win a decision, i think Duran grinds him down and wins a late stoppage. Duran TKO 13
Better question, round robin between Duran, Sweet Pea, Shane Mosley and Armstrong.
Whitaker loses every fight. Mosley only beats Whitaker. Duran and Armstrong go to war.Quote:
Originally Posted by DavilaJones
Whitaker is the greatest lightweight of all time!
Duran beat a bunch of slobs and second rate fighters at LW... and you know this!
Wow that's harsh, how'd you come up to this conclusion? Sweet Pete's lack of KO record or something else?Quote:
Originally Posted by greynotsooldWhitaker loses every fight. Mosley only beats Whitaker. Duran and Armstrong go to war.Quote:
Originally Posted by DavilaJones
I've always thought Duran at light and still do. Workrate and undeterred mentality aside he was full of sharp instinct. Fine tuned whirlwind. Both had killer balance. I don't think for a minute he was superior in ring smarts to Whitaker, and Whitaker would come in on point with minimal gimmicks, but as slick as he was Whitaker could be a tad flat footed and squared when hard pressed. He rarely loaded up and that would suit him with Durans likewise speed but in a battle to gain respect and ring real estate...Duran would gain it with sharp punches before Whitaker with his. The ring generalship by both in there would be fit for West Point, but Duran over close dec.
Can't see Mosley topping Whitaker at light, no way no how. Mosley never had the challenge to be frustrated and bottled up at light as he could be later and I'm sure Whitaker would supply it.Quote:
Originally Posted by greynotsooldWhitaker loses every fight. Mosley only beats Whitaker. Duran and Armstrong go to war.Quote:
Originally Posted by DavilaJones
ive often thought about this fight as both are fav fighters of mine.
if you go with both at their very best its so hard to split them, but i lean slightly with Duran, his pressure when he won the title was immense, it would be very close but Duran on points.
I would not be surprised if Whitaker won a rematch
Mosley beat Whitaker, mosley might not win 3 rounds
Duran is considered the best lightweight ever for a reason. I think he would stalk Pernell down and do work on him in spurts. Pernell would fight too negative to get a decision vs Duran.
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Originally Posted by El Kabong
Hmmmm... it's possible for sure!
Nice.Quote:
Originally Posted by DavilaJones
Throw Benny Leonard in there along with the Old Master and Ike Williams and that's one hell of a tourney.
I don't think Whitaker or Shane make it out alive.
I think with Duran being as solid of a boxer as he was he would connect more and defend better than most.Quote:
Originally Posted by BeanflickerQuote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong
Hmmmm... it's possible for sure!
I think Pernell would make a guy like Mosley look foolish though.
Agreed! I think Mosley was an ATG lightweight, but I don't fancy his chances against Whitaker!Quote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong
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Originally Posted by IamInuit
Benny Leonard wouldn't have lasted 1 round against Shane. We're talking about the stoneage of boxing hahah.
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Originally Posted by BeanflickerQuote:
Originally Posted by IamInuit
Benny Leonard wouldn't have lasted 1 round against Shane. We're talking about the stoneage of boxing hahah.
Lol
Leonard was blue printing a Pernell before Whitakers Pappy was rolling in the backseat.Quote:
Originally Posted by BeanflickerQuote:
Originally Posted by IamInuit
Benny Leonard wouldn't have lasted 1 round against Shane. We're talking about the stoneage of boxing hahah.
Yeah nothing against Shane, but his style would be something that played to Whittaker's best attributes. I think the more you load up on punches then the more you play into Whittaker's hands.Quote:
Originally Posted by BeanflickerAgreed! I think Mosley was an ATG lightweight, but I don't fancy his chances against Whitaker!Quote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong
Oh for sure, I give big respect to the pioneers like Leonard who paved boxing's long highway and made it possible for guys like Whitaker, PBF, Roy Jones, ect to exist!Quote:
Originally Posted by Spicoli
But we're talking WAY back in the day when boxing was still evolving, people were figuring out what worked and what didn't. Back when sport science was basically non existent and nutrition and training wasn't nearly as advanced as it is in modern times. Guys are bigger, stronger, faster and technique grew a great deal since.
So when people say stuff like Benny Leonard would kill Whitaker or Mosley... it's just unrealistic. If you had a time machine to go bring him (at his prime) to Pernell's time and have them fight, he wouldn't know what to make of Pernell (or Mosley).
Great for their time, but if you want to talk modern day, you can't compare a guy like that.
Beanflicker your bias for new fighters makes sense in the heavyweight division but not for the lighter weight fighters. They were tough, skilled and seasoned campaigners who could easily have wiped the floor with many fighters today.
Whitaker almost dropped by Pendleton ? don't remember that at all. I remember him beating Pendleton quite comfortably 9-3 or 8-4, and he schooled McGirt in the rematch. No shame in being floored with Mayweather he had dynamite in the right hand, and i think Whitaker was more hurt by being hit while he was down.Quote:
Originally Posted by greynotsoold
Duran also got floored twice by De Jesus, this is all moot because there would be no stoppage. Whitaker is tougher than you think he took flush punches off one of the hardest hitting Welterweights of all time, and survived 12 rounds while being past his prime.
I think Whitaker beats Duran by decision, Duran was great as a Lightweight but i do feel he struggled with boxers somewhat. Although he did beat some solid boxers like Fernandez and ETC, he did get schooled by a defensive master like Benitez.
I don't think there would be any schooling here, but i think Whitaker would win a close decision if he doesn't get robbed.
I'm not saying they weren't tough, seasoned or skilled. I'm just saying that skills have evolved since then, and they are, in general, athletically inferior to athletes of 50 years later.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
They are great because they were pioneers... I guess to use another analogy, take Jimi Hendrix. Widely lauded as the greatest guitarist of all time.... but since he died 40 years ago or so, guitarists have largely eclipsed the level of technical proficiency he had. Jimi was an awesome guitarist back in the day, no doubt the best at the time, but if you put him in a time machine and brought him to the present, his guitar skills wouldn't be anything special because there are literally 15 year old kids messing around in their rooms that have the guitar skill he has. Now without Jimi, they probably wouldn't even be playing guitar. And of course he deserves to be known as one of the greats because he was a true pioneer. But if you're talking head to head, no, because things improve with time.
Also, I always found it weird that guys could say, with the same confidence that they would recite their birth date, that a guy like Leonard who they never actually saw fight, have no idea who 99% of his opponents were or if they were worth a shit, would whip a guy like Pernell who's brilliance we have all seen with our eyes. I saw one of Leonard's fights on youtube, and I gotta say I wasn't wowed by the guy. It probably was past his prime, but I didn't see anything that would give Pernell problems.
Think about it, if we could predict the outcome of a fight based on numbers and accomplishments, we'd all be multi-millionaires. You don't get to take a nice looking record or accolades with you into the ring. It's man vs man, ability vs ability.
I get where your coming from to a degree. Living it and seeing it is believing and like every aspect of day to day, we evolve, times change, we learn the value of thumbs etc. I def don't think he or anyone one would go killing today's fighters but likewise Leonard wouldn't be like some Neanderthal seeing a burning bush for the first time. He always struck me as ahead of his time and certainly wasn't a clubbing oof. The guy could box and very well. Unlike a Greb where we can only speculate, we're fortunate to have footage however "old". Looking past the grain and black & white its as clear as day. Its one lifetime ago not a complete relic found in ice. Its touchable. Science, nutrition, rules, boxing politricks etc have certainly changed. More so when talking Whitaker, Holyfield camp. under water weight resistance training ffs?! Training habits as well but where guys work in a gym or swat training pads much more today, fighters simply fought fights then. Something to be said for the constant activity level then. They'd look at those giant pillows and a 10-12 round cap among other things and scoff. As advanced as we fancy ourselves and as far as they've come it's still the hurt business and even the slickest have a ill caveman at the core. It's what pulled Whitaker out of the fire once or twice himself. Today's fighters and the ever growing number of spoon fed divas could learn ALOT from fighters of old. In the ring as well as outside of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by BeanflickerOh for sure, I give big respect to the pioneers like Leonard who paved boxing's long highway and made it possible for guys like Whitaker, PBF, Roy Jones, ect to exist!Quote:
Originally Posted by Spicoli
But we're talking WAY back in the day when boxing was still evolving, people were figuring out what worked and what didn't. Back when sport science was basically non existent and nutrition and training wasn't nearly as advanced as it is in modern times. Guys are bigger, stronger, faster and technique grew a great deal since.
So when people say stuff like Benny Leonard would kill Whitaker or Mosley... it's just unrealistic. If you had a time machine to go bring him (at his prime) to Pernell's time and have them fight, he wouldn't know what to make of Pernell (or Mosley).
Great for their time, but if you want to talk modern day, you can't compare a guy like
that.
Yeah, 8th round, or later, Pendleton hit him with a right hand and Whitaker did a very deep knee bend. I watched it at a bar in Chino and subsequently did some very serious elbow bending, but I think I remember that.Quote:
Originally Posted by ICBWhitaker almost dropped by Pendleton ? don't remember that at all. I remember him beating Pendleton quite comfortably 9-3 or 8-4, and he schooled McGirt in the rematch. No shame in being floored with Mayweather he had dynamite in the right hand, and i think Whitaker was more hurt by being hit while he was down.Quote:
Originally Posted by greynotsoold
Duran also got floored twice by De Jesus, this is all moot because there would be no stoppage. Whitaker is tougher than you think he took flush punches off one of the hardest hitting Welterweights of all time, and survived 12 rounds while being past his prime.
I think Whitaker beats Duran by decision, Duran was great as a Lightweight but i do feel he struggled with boxers somewhat. Although he did beat some solid boxers like Fernandez and ETC, he did get schooled by a defensive master like Benitez.
I don't think there would be any schooling here, but i think Whitaker would win a close decision if he doesn't get robbed.
In all this debate keep in mind that Whitaker became a better fighter as he moved up. At lightweight he tended to punch more and that wouldn't do him well with Duran, and in no world is he smart enough to 'frustrate' Duran. Quite the opposite. Duran would be on him, not buying into his feints and shiftiness and just punching over the top of it.
Benny Leonard was considered the best LW of all time by Ray Arcel, and he started training fighters way back, before 1920, and he trained Duran. Actually, worked as an advisor in his corner, but was very familiar with him. Benny leonard was known for incredible hand-speed, real good punching power, and, above all, his intelligence in the ring. Many boxing guys, of the older than me variety, considered him the best ever because he was so good without any physical advantage.
He'd beat Duran or Armstrong. Ike Williams is life or death with any of them. Mosley beats Whitaker at LW because he was just as fast, hit harder, and, when not intimidated by fighting a physical equal, thinks real sharp in the ring.
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Originally Posted by Spicoli
Yeah, it'll always be hard to compare because they are just completely different worlds.
I do think that the fact that old timer's fought more often gets overblown in terms of importance. While I do agree that it gave guys more experience to perfect their craft... in terms of quality of opponents, these HUGE resumes are padded with stiffs, complete throwaway fights. Ray Robinson won 173 fights, which is a crazy number for sure, but how many of those 173 fights were top-quality opponents? I'd go out on a limb and say it's a very small fraction. Guys had to fight 200 times because they had to, not because they were brave he-men who wanted to. If SRR or Benny Leonard could have made a couple million for one fight, they'd only fight once or twice a year too.
Modern guys fight 35 times in a career and they fight hardly any quality opponents. You figure that the first 18-20 are set-ups to pad the record, then you fight 'quality opponents' that try for 2 rounds, then you fights contenders that are half your size, then fight 'champions' that have been brought along the same way.Quote:
Originally Posted by BeanflickerQuote:
Originally Posted by Spicoli
Yeah, it'll always be hard to compare because they are just completely different worlds.
I do think that the fact that old timer's fought more often gets overblown in terms of importance. While I do agree that it gave guys more experience to perfect their craft... in terms of quality of opponents, these HUGE resumes are padded with stiffs, complete throwaway fights. Ray Robinson won 173 fights, which is a crazy number for sure, but how many of those 173 fights were top-quality opponents? I'd go out on a limb and say it's a very small fraction. Guys had to fight 200 times because they had to, not because they were brave he-men who wanted to. If SRR or Benny Leonard could have made a couple million for one fight, they'd only fight once or twice a year too.
So even when you fight another "champion" you're fighting another guy that has never been in a fight in his life.
And you would be WAY out on a limb re: Robinson's record.
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Originally Posted by IamInuitNice.Quote:
Originally Posted by DavilaJones
Throw Benny Leonard in there along with the Old Master and Ike Williams and that's one hell of a tourney.
I don't think Whitaker or Shane make it out alive.
I never warmed up to Benny. I don't know why. Wish I had a better reason for you than "just cause."
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Originally Posted by DavilaJonesQuote:
Originally Posted by IamInuitNice.Quote:
Originally Posted by DavilaJones
Throw Benny Leonard in there along with the Old Master and Ike Williams and that's one hell of a tourney.
I don't think Whitaker or Shane make it out alive.
I never warmed up to Benny. I don't know why. Wish I had a better reason for you than "just cause."
That is cool. The top 5 lightweights in history is perhaps the toughest list to make in boxing.
This is what Durans trainer Ray Arcel had to say about Leonard and its paraphrased by a boxing writer.
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The great trainer Ray Arcel once said that the two best fighters he ever saw were Benny Leonard and Ray Robinson and hesitated on picking between them. Of Leonard he said, “His mental energy surpassed that of anyone else.” Indeed “The Ghetto Wizard” was a clever tactician and ring strategist with a brilliant mind who believed and taught that boxing was the art of out thinking one’s opponent. At this few were Benny Leonard’s equal. Leonard was a master boxer who possessed superb defensive footwork, speed, and elusiveness. He was superb at feinting and counter-punching as well as being a great combination puncher. In many ways Benny was the Muhammad Ali of the lightweight division as he defeated the greatest array of challengers in lightweight division history including Freddie Welsh, Willie Ritchie, Johnny Dundee, Ritchie Mitchell, Charley White, Lew Tendler, and Rocky Kansas.