Fighters 'ducking' other fighters - does it happen and are they scared?
I started this conversation with a few other people and also in another undiclosed location :p but I am curious what you guys think.
Do fighters (and I am talking FIGHTERS here, not teams) duck other fighters because they are scared of them? Do fighters even really (as fighters) duck other fighters? Or is it more that the terms are not what they want rather than a duck?
Here's my thoughts, so hopefully you can agree/disagree/yell/pat on the back/whatever you will do. Fighters who are at the top of their game are not scared to lose... in fact, I think that they are conditioned to think that they are the best in the world, even after a loss. Young, undefeated champions don't think that they can lose if they perform the way that they should. I think that's almost a requirement to be a top level guy - you have to believe in yourself to a fault. Therefore, I don't think that fighters are necessarily 'scared' to fight other fighters when you talk about elite guys. It's the second tier guys who don't believe in themselves that way - my opinion - but they still think they've got a shot for the most part. It's rare that I see second tier guys who know that they can't win and are accepting a payday, but I know that happens and that is WHY (in part) they are second tier guys.
Egos cancel fights - fighters overvalue themselves and they price themselves out sometimes, or else they demand things from other guys who have huge egos. The other guy with the huge ego often doesn't feel that they should, out of principle, give up anything to fight that loudmouth who is calling him out... and then comes the cries of "he's ducking!" or "he's scared!" I also think that promoters and management teams at times ARE scared of other fighters and scared of the gravy trains that they are riding commanding less money or having less of a mystique - that aura of invincibility that sells fights. They have doubts and they are the ones that may also make demands that are unreasonable. PR teams can spin this stuff inside, outside, upside down, and sideways... and we, the public, really don't know why fights don't happen. We only speculate. But what do many fans say? Such and such DUCKED such and such. Did Floyd duck Manny? I don't think so... but others do. Is Ward ducking top competition at this point? I don't think so, but I've heard the argument. What say you?
Re: Fighters 'ducking' other fighters - does it happen and are they scared?
I do not think any fighter ducks any other fighter because they are afraid of them. What is the worst that could happen they get knocked out, lose their dignity but still get paid handsomely.
Re: Fighters 'ducking' other fighters - does it happen and are they scared?
Fighters are professionals, meaning that they fight for money. If the price is right, fear becomes a non-issue. Like Bobby Czyz told Orlin Norris..."As long as they offer me $50,000 to fight you and $1.5million to fight Tommy Hearns, I'm afraid of you. They offer me $i.5 million to fight you, and I'm not afraid of you any more."
Re: Fighters 'ducking' other fighters - does it happen and are they scared?
There is something to be said for risk-reward and it is ever present. The promotion can pull the plug on a guy at any time and use him as a step to get to a fighter he has interest in. Or fans suspect a 'duck' because champions/promoters are content to ride the gravy train and have no need and or incentive to risk it. Bowe gets spot lighted because there was a final four set up and once Lewis crushed Ruddock, he beat Holyfield, he dumped the belt in the garbage instead. Which in hindsight they should be put more often nowadays but fans always prefer to see the best fight the best. You won't often see a top guy willing to break ranks or leave comforts of a team because mentions of 'a duck'. Floyd and Manny just got way to big for themselves and while both could make a case for leverage it came down to ego, promotions and almost waiting each other out. They both lost an oppurtunity for greatness if you ask me. Jones didn't 'duck' a Benn, Eubanks etc as he in his mind didn't need them. He was secure, at the peak content to face mandatories and already seen in most as dominate.
Re: Fighters 'ducking' other fighters - does it happen and are they scared?
The word duck gets thrown around to much. And in the most ridiculous ways. Seriously some of these suppose examples of ducking are hilarious and moronic. The worse and worse by a long ways is the idiotic case of Roy Jones ducked Steve Collins. :lolhaha: Ignoring the fact that it's impossible to duck someone that has no chance of being competitive with you much less beating you. Collins didn't bring anything to the table to make Jones go fight him overseas. And in the US, Jones-Collins is just another Jones-Tony Thornton. Collins beats washed up versions of Nigel Benn and Chris Eubank and he thinks he could be Jones? Come the fuck on. He only beat them cuz they were used up. And I'm not even sure he deserved the win in the Eubank rematch. Whenever he faced good fighters who weren't used up he lost. Jones would of destroyed Collins and his skirt inside of 3. Jones at that stage in his career was unbeatable. Collins is getting dropped and going to war with chump fighters like Craig Cummings. Yet the ignorant think Jones ducked him? Dumb muthafukkas
Re: Fighters 'ducking' other fighters - does it happen and are they scared?
Yes fighters do duck other fighters due to fear.
But it's not fear in the sense that they believe the other fighter is bigger, better, scarier, etc.
It's fear in the sense of risk. Why fight a puncher 20-0-0 with 18 knockouts when you can fight a 40-0-0 with 7 knockouts?
Fighters duck to better their careers and it shows INTELLIGENCE TO DUCK CERTAIN FIGHTERS, look at boxers who never ducked anyone... The Win, Loss, Draw, NC, section of their record is very colourful.
Re: Fighters 'ducking' other fighters - does it happen and are they scared?
Interesting topic - for me only Bowe springs to mind as an obvious one. I agree with the points made above re Manny and Floyd, it ws egos rather than ducking - and ultimately they missed out which serves them right.
Khan will continue to duck Kell Brook I reckon - though his "not in my league", "what's he ever done ?" arguments will wear thin soon.
Re: Fighters 'ducking' other fighters - does it happen and are they scared?
I agree especially about the 2nd tier guys. I can't mention names out of respect but I know guys who outright tell their handlers that they would rather not fight certain styles.. All kinds of shit goes on behind the scenes with the guys who are coming up as a prospect or right below the elite level.
They turn down certain opponents because their style does not suit them or because they wouldnt look good against them, win or lose..
Re: Fighters 'ducking' other fighters - does it happen and are they scared?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jerry Rice
Bowe ducked Lennox, because he knew Lennox was better.
Bowe was due to fight Lennox if Lewis did not lose to McCall. Bowe was confident of beating him after Lennox poor performances against Tucker and Bruno.
Re: Fighters 'ducking' other fighters - does it happen and are they scared?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Master
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jerry Rice
Bowe ducked Lennox, because he knew Lennox was better.
Bowe was due to fight Lennox if Lewis did not lose to McCall. Bowe was confident of beating him after Lennox poor performances against Tucker and Bruno.
People will always remember Bowe dumping the WBC belt in the bin and going back on his word to face the Ruddock-Lewis winner.
Plus refusing a 75-25 purse split and demanding 90-10 (well his manager, Rock Newman, can be blaimed for that)
Re: Fighters 'ducking' other fighters - does it happen and are they scared?
I don't even know what a duck is anymore. Its seems like a great tutorial on situational ethics. The definition has become so broad and yet so vague that its meaningless. The "boxing is a business" excuse is really starting to pick my ass. I think egos do get in the way but even that could be shown to be a duck. I mean the greatest example of this in boxing history is that one fight that nobody can stop talking about. Nothing remotely close has ever happened. Its like Hearns, Leonard, Duran and Benitez not fighting each other. Any two of them would have fought twice during their silly negotiation period. Its also rather convenient having 4 main belts and about 10 splinters in each division.
Re: Fighters 'ducking' other fighters - does it happen and are they scared?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
IamInuit
I don't even know what a duck is anymore. Its seems like a great tutorial on situational ethics. The definition has become so broad and yet so vague that its meaningless. The "boxing is a business" excuse is really starting to pick my ass. I think egos do get in the way but even that could be shown to be a duck. I mean the greatest example of this in boxing history is that one fight that nobody can stop talking about. Nothing remotely close has ever happened. Its like Hearns, Leonard, Duran and Benitez not fighting each other. Any two of them would have fought twice during their silly negotiation period. Its also rather convenient having 4 main belts and about 10 splinters in each division.
... and this is a lot of my point. What even constitutes ducking? One man's duck is another man's smart decision or promotional issue.
Re: Fighters 'ducking' other fighters - does it happen and are they scared?
As mentioned by @Fenster Bowe was dumb for listening to Newman... He could have been a man about his shit and told Newman lets fight Lennox but instead he just listened to him. In a sense it is a duck.
Also the whole legendary nights of boxing bit where they quickly mention Pryor-Leonard bout not happening started this "myth" that SRL ducked Pryor... LMAO.
People need to dig deep and know the facts before they say SRL ducked him.
It's a little funny to think that JMM has fought Pacquiao 4 times and Floyd once and has even said he would fight Floyd again (I personally think it's useless he will never beat Floyd) and yet those two can't agree on fighting once. Think about that for a bit and what that means as far as a fighter like JMM and other fighters.
Re: Fighters 'ducking' other fighters - does it happen and are they scared?
Fighters definitely duck other fighters. I doubt its because they are scared but more likely they are avoiding a hard fight or avoiding a possible loss. One example I always think of is Fury and Price. Price was mandatory for Furys British title and Fury vacated to fight Rogan for the Irish title. There is no doubt in my mind Fury avoided that fight because he though he could lose. He knew he would not lose to Rogan.
Fury gets criticised for this but in fairness it is the more logical move. Price and Fury were both big up and comers. I think Fury was offered 250k for the fight. But if Price had continued ontrack 2 years later after not beating anyone special they could have got a couple of million for the fight. Its really risk v reward most of the time. If I can make 20 mil to fight a washed up name or 30 mil to fight a live dangerous fighter Ill take the 20 mil everytime. Do you really think boxers give a shit about the fans?
Re: Fighters 'ducking' other fighters - does it happen and are they scared?
Yes and it happens...due to fear of the unknown...Some fighters duck because they don't know what's going to happen, Some duck because they know EXACTLY what's going to happen
Lennox Lewis retired rather than face Vitali again (watch that fight, Lennox was getting owned but Vitali's cutman couldn't stop the bleeding.
Sturm wen to court to avoid fighting the MANDATORY challenger Gennady Golovkin because Sturm is a bitch who pisses his pants anytime he sets foot outside of Germany or fights anyone with a decent KO percentage
And who can forget the Floyd/Pac deal...oh he don't wanna take a drug test...oh he does? Then he need to take an unfair flat fee rather than the 55% to me, 45% to him that he offered...
Re: Fighters 'ducking' other fighters - does it happen and are they scared?
Lewis maybe did avoid a rematch.
But not because of Vitali - he knew he was on the slide and maybe not as motivated to train any more. He got out at the top rather than lose to someone he shouldn't.
Not many go out a champion. Lewis did
Lewis TKO6 Vit Klitschko. Thats how the record books show it
Re: Fighters 'ducking' other fighters - does it happen and are they scared?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
15rounder
Yes and it happens...due to fear of the unknown...Some fighters duck because they don't know what's going to happen, Some duck because they know EXACTLY what's going to happen
Lennox Lewis retired rather than face Vitali again (watch that fight, Lennox was getting owned but Vitali's cutman couldn't stop the bleeding.
Sturm wen to court to avoid fighting the MANDATORY challenger Gennady Golovkin because Sturm is a bitch who pisses his pants anytime he sets foot outside of Germany or fights anyone with a decent KO percentage
And who can forget the Floyd/Pac deal...oh he don't wanna take a drug test...oh he does? Then he need to take an unfair flat fee rather than the 55% to me, 45% to him that he offered...
I watched it. I didn't see Lewis getting owned. I saw Vitali holding on for dear life at the end with a face that looked like he'd bumped into Hannibal Lecter.
It wasn't just a cut. It was several different cuts, including one in his mouth, that required over 60 stitches.
Re: Fighters 'ducking' other fighters - does it happen and are they scared?
Exactly
Vitali's face was FUBAR.
He certainly looked like a loser
