...well, what do you think? I miss the 15 rounders.
:)
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...well, what do you think? I miss the 15 rounders.
:)
All World Title bouts should be 15 rds.
$#!t separates the men from the boys.
"The fight don't really start until the 12th. After the 12th, your balls are tight, your @$$hole locks up, and you want nothing more than to cry. The 13th-15th is what separates a man from a boy." - Mike "The Body-Snatcher" McCallum.
There's just something beautiful about watching a Great, durable pressure-fighter practice his craft by getting the ever-lovin' $#!t kicked out of him for better than half the fight as the other guy holds all the advantages of speed, power, reflexes, skills, footwork, technique, defense, but the pressure fighter is all steely-resolve, toughness, Heart, endurance, and determination that he's gonna get this more-skilled guy late in the fight when The Great Pretender caves in psychologically and physically...
...and same-day weigh-ins should be reinstated too.
My boxing utopia would include one title and 15 rounds to decide it. Even today when I hear the phrase championship rounds I shudder a little. Trouble is today with few exceptions even with all these so-called improvements in nutrition, science, technique, training and biochemistry etc most fighters are gassed and breathing through the mouth in round 6.
Ask Duk Koo Kim or Benny Paret.
I prefer 15 round fights , bring them back.
That is urban legend my friend. Not that they died but that 15 round title fights cause more deaths.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vendettos
The main reason they moved to 12 from 15 is because the time fit better for 1 hour television slots.
The change was made over marketing
Deaths per round
1-45
2-62
3-54
4-82
5-49
6-95
7-46
8-71
9-44
10-92
11-13
12-35
13-10
14-10
15-13
Thank you Kevin for the statistical master class as usual.:appl:Quote:
Originally Posted by IamInuitThat is urban legend my friend. Not that they died but that 15 round title fights cause more deaths.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vendettos
The main reason they moved to 12 from 15 is because the time fit better for 1 hour television slots.
The change was made over marketing
Deaths per round
1-45
2-62
3-54
4-82
5-49
6-95
7-46
8-71
9-44
10-92
11-13
12-35
13-10
14-10
15-13
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Lord Al
Why thank-you kind sir but I cant take credit for it. Its part of a pretty exhaustive study going back to the early 1700's and originally compiled by Manuel Velazquez and passed on to Joseph R. Svinth. It just so happens that this topic has been a wee thorn in my side for over 30 years lol.
I still think some promoter will decide to spin a fight as a 15 rounder, perhaps as a rematch after a 12 round draw. It could work...
Long term though, history suggests we will be, bemoaning the loss of the 12 rounder.
Top post mate.Quote:
Originally Posted by IamInuitThat is urban legend my friend. Not that they died but that 15 round title fights cause more deaths.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vendettos
The main reason they moved to 12 from 15 is because the time fit better for 1 hour television slots.
The change was made over marketing
Deaths per round
1-45
2-62
3-54
4-82
5-49
6-95
7-46
8-71
9-44
10-92
11-13
12-35
13-10
14-10
15-13
"During contests, pro boxers are most likely to die from injuries received during rounds 4, 6, 8, and 10. Amateurs, on the other hand, are most likely to die from injuries received during round 3."- The Manuel Velazquez Fatality Collection.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vendettos
Rd 6 particularly has led to the most fatalities.
Yep, spot-on about that the real reason for moving to 12 rds over the 1 hr timeslot.
They gave that bogus reason about fighter-safety and studies about the 15th rd.
Yea thats a cool find Inuit! Weird how there are a lot more deaths on even numbered rounds... I'm assuming it means the fights all ended on the rounds listed, instead of trying to determine at what point injuries occurred despite how much longer it went on:confused: Pretty shocking there have been 45 deaths caused in the 1st if so, I've certainly never heard of or seen a fight where that's happened. I'd guess the vast majority of those numbers don't come from the west or anywhere with reasonable matchmaking and athletic commissions.
Nice analysis and I'd have to agree. There is no definitive answer really. Not trying to say Vendettos was wrong but its kind of a red herring based on the evidence and in fact the later round fights almost seem safer. In addition 15rd title fights have been around longer then 12 so one would think that at least the possibility existed that more deaths would have occurred over the course of history in 13, 14 and 15. The evidence kind of shows that something else might be at play other then distance. The irony here is some ways is that Manuel Velazquez was trying to get the sport abolished and yet w/o checking I'd wager more die a year playing high school football or hockey on this continent.Quote:
Originally Posted by p4pking
Here is another interesting stat from the study.
Reasons for deaths.
Falls-101
Misadventure-81
Blows-65
Prior injury-35
Unfit-23
Mismatch-18
Weight reduction-6 (Not sure I buy that low a number)
Other-6
The explanation of the above.
Again on the one hand based on the round tally it seems to suggest that distance has nothing to do with it and yet one cant help but think that the longer the fight goes the better chance the death blow occurs.Quote:
In 1996, some Japanese neurosurgeons reported that serious brain injury (specifically, acute subdural hematoma) was the proximate cause of most Japanese ring fatalities. The Velazquez collection supports their assertion. About 80% of the deaths listed were due to head, brain, or neck injuries, about 12% were due to cardiac conditions, and about 8% were due to other causes, ranging from ruptured spleens to “over-indulgence in ice-water.”
About 75% of the fatal incidents clearly started in the ring. That is, the boxer was knocked out, and did not get up. However, 25% of the fatal incidents began after the injured boxer left the ring, and about 5% of the deceased did not show visible symptoms until a week or more after their last bout.
Surprisingly, blows often are not the official cause of ring death. Instead, the usual cause of ring death is either a fall or “nobody knows” (e.g., misadventure). For details, see Table 10. The raw numbers shown below are based on 340 deaths since 1890, about 25% of the total.
Cool again.. I'm a tad curious how they distinguish between deaths from blows or "misadventure", and especially death via "mismatch" for instance:D Sounds like something out of mortal combat. "Your winner by DEATH via 1st round mismatch"
Some here and the weight reduction thing seems dubious. Six cases responsible since 1732? Sorry something is amiss.. That, other, mismatch and unfit could be all together.Quote:
Originally Posted by p4pking
Still regardless of their cause criteria 15 rounds does not really seem to be an issue. Yet, it kind of begs the question. How many lives were possibly saved by limiting it to 12? Its still a valid critique because 33 people did die in those rounds. And when you bring in the coddled world we live in I'm not sure fighters could do 15 safely. Some of the draws that needed a 13th round could have resulted in death regardless of the math. Lol I just had a flashback of my first year philosophy proff telling me the only thing statistics prove is that there are other statistics.
Learned plenty from this thread but my first reaction to 15 rounders is no, I can be bored out of my mind with some 10 rounders and many 12 rounders start me surfing.
Right, but that's impossible to determine also, as fighters know how many rounds they have to go beforehand. They train for it, and expend/conserve their energy accordingly in the bout. The fact that guys are spent by the end of 12 rounds doesn't say anything towards what would have happened over 15 as the entire approach would have been different for the most part.
I do think the most technically sound fighters would always benefit the more rounds we are talking though. Guys like Mayweather, Hopkins, Toney, Marquez, would have probably reversed a few losses/gotten a lot more stoppages over 15 rounds for sure.
Thats evidence of the era not the distance.Quote:
Originally Posted by beenKOed
If a fight is boring, it's boring. Adding rounds certainly isn't going to make it more so. The jealous fan in me wishes all fights still went until someone can't continue;D
Quote:
Originally Posted by Britkid
Great post. I missed this bud. I could see this happening about 7 years ago when I started seeing helmets in the sand box.
I grew up with 15 round barn burners.Quote:
Originally Posted by p4pking
One last thought, I wish we could pole the fighters. Saddo do something about that, please!
Orlando Cruz is fighting this weekend, maybe you could send him a request? Ask Finito for his facebook, I know he wants to pole him to;)Quote:
Originally Posted by beenKOed
Excuse me sir, my face is a little red. Maybe very red. LOLQuote:
Originally Posted by p4pkingOrlando Cruz is fighting this weekend, maybe you could send him a request? Ask Finito for his facebook, I know he wants to pole him to;)Quote:
Originally Posted by beenKOed
Couldn't resist:D
It was well deserved!Quote:
Originally Posted by p4pking
Great idea the 15 rounds should come back without it Rocky would never have been unbeaten, Leonard would never have stooped Hearns.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
Very true and had the Hagler fight with Leonard been 15 I think Hagler would have got to him. Ray had no legs left.
Yeah, it is true, old-schoolers were tuffer, old-school was:
"Pushing the limits of human endurance."
The Greek phrase, "The exercise of the full use of your powers along lines of excellence."
Hemingway's "grace under pressure."
Nowadays, it's:
"Stress and how to Cope With It"
"Nurturing Your Inner Child."
"It's Not Your Fault: A Guide for Men On Learning to Forgive Yourself."
.
Man, analyzing old 15 rounders- guys who were kings of that last GOLDEN era of the 15 rounders- from Pintor, to Gomez, to Pryor, Arguello, Sugar Ray and Hearns... drama always happens between the 10th and 13th rounds. This is where a lot of the kiddies were separated.... good, cracking fights for about 10, or maybe even 12 rounds. But, when we banked the 13th and started to wade into the 14th, shit happened- and it was always exciting.
;D