Do Matthysse & Rosado Deserve Rematches Due to the Effect the Eye/Cuts on Outcomes?

I had a debate yesterday with @imp who had the opinion that Rosado and Matthysse did not deserve rematches. His point was cuts/eye closing are part of boxing and if they lost because of the cuts/eye closing, there is no reason to grant them rematches. Besides the fact that people would be interested in the rematches, do you agree that when the outcome of a fight is changed due to a cut or an eye closing, there is no reason for the victor to grant the loser a rematch? A win is a win.

In this context, keep in mind that Garcia gave Morales a rematch when the fight was not as close as the Matthysse fight and that Quillin was looking to make a statement at middleweight because of the comparisons with GGG.

By the way, sour grapes on my part over the plight of Matthysse and Rosado? Yes, perhaps.

Id say yes for Matthyse, maybe not Rosado. Matthyse-Garcia is arguably still the best fight at 140 if they rematched, the first one was excellent and I think the cut let Garcia take control for a good stretch before Matthyse came on at the end again. A rematch could still go either way for me.

Rosado fought his heart out against Quillin but I'm a bit less interested in this rematch. The cut was unfortunate, he had kept himself in the fight and hurt Quillin a few times, but I think Quillin could only do better and is still an interesting opponent for GGG or Martinez. I'd rather see those fights happen.

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Originally Posted by Rantcatrat

I had a debate yesterday with @imp who had the opinion that Rosado and Matthysse did not deserve rematches. His point was cuts/eye closing are part of boxing and if they lost because of the cuts/eye closing, there is no reason to grant them rematches. Besides the fact that people would be interested in the rematches, do you agree that when the outcome of a fight is changed due to a cut or an eye closing, there is no reason for the victor to grant the loser a rematch? A win is a win.

In this context, keep in mind that Garcia gave Morales a rematch when the fight was not as close as the Matthysse fight and that Quillin was looking to make a statement at middleweight because of the comparisons with GGG.

By the way, sour grapes on my part over the plight of Matthysse and Rosado? Yes, perhaps.

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Interesting question not sour grapes.


I tend to agree with @imp. This is the hurt business and cuts are part of it obviously. To me its a bit of a slippery slope. Not only that but neither fight was all that close. This brings back memories of the talk after another fight between heavies where the loser on cuts was actually ahead on the cards prior to its ending. That scenario has also played out throughout history. Its part of the risk. More often then not, they allow the fighter to continue when it should be stopped. Its up to the fighter who is cut to go change the outcome at that point. Marciano was about to have his fight stopped in the second Charles fight.

In addition there are those fighters who are cut often and many times in the same area. The opponents will of course learn of this and target that area and if they manage to open something up they will then target the cut. Certain places for example on Gatti's face had scar tissue that was about as thick as rice paper. A cut would open up if he got hit by a random hot dog bun thrown into the ring. He had a bad gash in the Ruelas fight and was behind and took it into his own hands. And even in Rosado's case, I'm pretty sure he was cut in the same spot in the 3G fight. I'd bet it opens up again.

Cut caused by a clash of heads in a close fight sure.

For sure, a cut from a punch should never be used as an excuse for any fight imo. It's a credit to the fighter who caused it, how else can you look at it.
I thought Matthyse actually ran Garcia pretty close though, after thinking he might even get stopped around when the cut happened. Can't think of anyone I'd rather see Garcia fight at 140 than him again.

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Originally Posted by p4pking

For sure, a cut from a punch should never be used as an excuse for any fight imo. It's a credit to the fighter who caused it, how else can you look at it.
I thought Matthyse actually ran Garcia pretty close though, after thinking he might even get stopped around when the cut happened. Can't think of anyone I'd rather see Garcia fight at 140 than him again.

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Agreed. I think he uses a different strategy. He went out for the big shot and before he knew it he was to far behind and then had to go for the bomb.

I don't like these "fight til you win" ala Marquez vs. Pac-man issues. You lost, move the heck on. There are other guys out there that deserve to fight for the title and contender slot.

The only time I can agree with a rematch is if the fight ends in a split decision or draw- and a close split decision at that. Nothing more, nothing less.

But the way Rosado and Matthysse lost, the fights weren't even close. They clearly lost, and in the case of Rosado, was losing the fight. It's over. Move on for now.

Now, if there is a case where they meet somewhere down the line, like how Tyson had to rematch Bruno a few years down the road because he was the #1 contender after the comeback, THEN a rematch is certainly within reason- aside from the other scenarios I have outlined.

I didn't even agree with the Tyson/Holyfield second match that much. But because the fans wanted to see it, and Tyson was on a serious surge after a few matches, and Holyfield was still a viable contender/candidate and that a HUGE amount of money was on the line, then that's a totally different case. Then, by all means, make that money.

But there is no big-draw or money in Rosado or Matthysse rematching. None what so ever.

MOVE ON!! You LOST. Period.

For Rosado, maybe, because despite what the judges thought, everyone else seemed to think it was a close fight that was still up for grabs at the time of the cut.

But for me, I don't see why Matthysse deserves a rematch. He was beat convincingly, cut or no cut.

I tend to think in both cases that cut/eye closing changed the outcomes of the fights. In Rosado's case, I'm not sure the fight shouldn't have been stopped, but a rematch is in order because it was a close fight and it appeared he was coming on. In Matthysse's case, Garcia closed his eye and it was in the rounds immediately following the closed eye, that Garcia moved ahead.

However, in any event, for either victor, Quillin or Garcia, who are they going to fight that would be as entertaining right now? With Quillin, GGG and Martinez are with HBO and he's with Showtime, so he simply can't fight them. With Garcia, who else is there attractive for him to face at 140? Furthermore, both fights were fun. Why not do it again?

For the people who voted no reason for a rematch with Matthyse, did they think there was no reason for a rematch with Morales?

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Originally Posted by Rantcatrat

I tend to think in both cases that cut/eye closing changed the outcomes of the fights. In Rosado's case, I'm not sure the fight shouldn't have been stopped, but a rematch is in order because it was a close fight and it appeared he was coming on. In Matthysse's case, Garcia closed his eye and it was in the rounds immediately following the closed eye, that Garcia moved ahead.

However, in any event, for either victor, Quillin or Garcia, who are they going to fight that would be as entertaining right now? With Quillin, GGG and Martinez are with HBO and he's with Showtime, so he simply can't fight them. With Garcia, who else is there attractive for him to face at 140? Furthermore, both fights were fun. Why not do it again?

For the people who voted no reason for a rematch with Matthyse, did they think there was no reason for a rematch with Morales?

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I'm not sure what the decision to fight Morales again has to do about the question specifically? One looks political and the other is physical. I'm sure Morales had a hell of a lot of influence with the Wbc.

I'm all for a rematch but I just don't think Danny is obligated as much as I'd like to say otherwise.

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Originally Posted by Rantcatrat

I tend to think in both cases that cut/eye closing changed the outcomes of the fights. In Rosado's case, I'm not sure the fight shouldn't have been stopped, but a rematch is in order because it was a close fight and it appeared he was coming on. In Matthysse's case, Garcia closed his eye and it was in the rounds immediately following the closed eye, that Garcia moved ahead.

However, in any event, for either victor, Quillin or Garcia, who are they going to fight that would be as entertaining right now? With Quillin, GGG and Martinez are with HBO and he's with Showtime, so he simply can't fight them. With Garcia, who else is there attractive for him to face at 140? Furthermore, both fights were fun. Why not do it again?

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Agreed! My impression at the was that Quillin got lucky with that stoppage. I'm not saying he was going to lose but Rosado was hunting him down. Rosado was only going to push harder in the final rounds especially with the cut. I'd like to see if Quillin can learn from the last fight. I'd like to see the adjustments he makes to deal with Rosado in a rematch. They both know that Quillin was unable to hurt Rosado...what will his new strategy be? How will Rosado change his strategy knowing Quillin was doing all he could to keep away?

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Originally Posted by Rantcatrat

I tend to think in both cases that cut/eye closing changed the outcomes of the fights.

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What exactly did you see in that fight that made you think Matthysse would have won?

I thought Garcia proved that not only could he outbox Matthysse, but he could stand up to his power. Matthysse hit Garcia with some shots that IMO would have knocked out 95% of the JR WW division, but Garcia took them like a champ.

I would love to see garcia and matthysee rematch but eventually give em a few fights in between, its not as if the first one was a one sided beat down.

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Originally Posted by p4pking

For sure, a cut from a punch should never be used as an excuse for any fight imo. It's a credit to the fighter who caused it, how else can you look at it.
I thought Matthyse actually ran Garcia pretty close though, after thinking he might even get stopped around when the cut happened. Can't think of anyone I'd rather see Garcia fight at 140 than him again.

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I don't really agree with this. The punches that cause most bad cut are grazing blows that aren't hurtful and they just slice you open. Its not blind luck as it's boxing but it's not what a guy is trying to do when he throws a punch. I think they both deserve rematches, Rosado more so. However have very little interest in a rematch, mainly cz Rosado can't win. Did u see those scorecards?

I'd say no in either case but with different aspects to the match and what it was on the bigger landscape. Matthysse v Garcia was two of the very best in division going in and determined a top dog. I think the eye had as much to do with the result as did Matthysse inability to establish a early body attack and being too conservative and Garcia keeping his head seriously level and executing a game plan. The eye was a casualty of conflict and kudos to Garcia for being the source and then exploiting it. But..on a whole I can see a rematch on places in division, name and credential. Aka..moola! Do I need it to be satisfied as a fan? No.

Of the two I hate Rosados scenario more because NO one wants to see a fight stopped on a cut. But he was brought in to frankly be a showcase and measuring stick, not a top player to Champions. He fought his ass off but I don't buy the inference that he was pulling away or in the verge on an upset. Same with Garcia, Quillin was finding openings as Rosado was getting wider in 8,9 and busted open as he's done in more than a few fights. I don't see a need for a rematch or one being considered. It was a good fight and will serve both but promotion, fighter wise a rematch would in a way be a step sideways for Quillin. Bigger fish to fry and ultimately I don't see the outcome any different. This wasn't a shady cut stoppage and it was as clear as they come. Rosado will again ride it into a decent opponent type fight and payday while Quillin apparently is heading for an explosive GBP special with a Danny Jacobs?!

Garcia would have won anyway he was in control. Mattysse was raw and predictable.

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Originally Posted by Beanflicker

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Originally Posted by Rantcatrat

I tend to think in both cases that cut/eye closing changed the outcomes of the fights.

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What exactly did you see in that fight that made you think Matthysse would have won?

I thought Garcia proved that not only could he outbox Matthysse, but he could stand up to his power. Matthysse hit Garcia with some shots that IMO would have knocked out 95% of the JR WW division, but Garcia took them like a champ.

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He was blind in ine eye from the 4th round yet it was an extremely close fight. Have you ever tried box with one eye blind folded? It's a massive handicap. If Garcia did not score that late KD and everything else went the same there's a good case for Matthysse winning the fight as he was winnin the 11th up til te KD. That would have given a 3 point swing an win him the fight. Garcia clearly won bu there are plenty of reasons for a rematch

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Originally Posted by Silkeyjoe

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Originally Posted by p4pking

For sure, a cut from a punch should never be used as an excuse for any fight imo. It's a credit to the fighter who caused it, how else can you look at it.
I thought Matthyse actually ran Garcia pretty close though, after thinking he might even get stopped around when the cut happened. Can't think of anyone I'd rather see Garcia fight at 140 than him again.

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I don't really agree with this. The punches that cause most bad cut are grazing blows that aren't hurtful and they just slice you open. Its not blind luck as it's boxing but it's not what a guy is trying to do when he throws a punch. I think they both deserve rematches, Rosado more so. However have very little interest in a rematch, mainly cz Rosado can't win. Did u see those scorecards?

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I think guys can aim to cut in the very same way a swelling or previous cuts can be targeted, absolutely no doubt about it.

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Originally Posted by Beanflicker

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Originally Posted by Rantcatrat

I tend to think in both cases that cut/eye closing changed the outcomes of the fights.

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What exactly did you see in that fight that made you think Matthysse would have won?

I thought Garcia proved that not only could he outbox Matthysse, but he could stand up to his power. Matthysse hit Garcia with some shots that IMO would have knocked out 95% of the JR WW division, but Garcia took them like a champ.

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First, I want to make clear I don't think Garcia is obligated to do a rematch. I also am a big Matthysse fan and have already admitted to sour grapes on this fight. It was a tough fight and Garcia escaped with a win. If he wants to move on to tougher challengers, so be it. There are plenty of good fights for him that don't involve Matthysse including the Broner/Maidana winner, the Thurman/Karass winner, and Brooks. However, those fights are all at 147. At 140, outside of Lundy with the Philly angle, I'm not sure who else there is for Garcia to fight, other than a rematch.

In my opinion though, the welt grew in the 7th round. Prior to the _th round, I had the fight close. I thought he was getting to Garcia in the later rounds, especially when he knocked Garcia's mouthpiece out of his mouth and Weeks stepped in to get the mouthpiece, giving Matthysse time to recuperate. If he had both eyes, I'm not sure how that round would have ended. I thought I saw both guys make adjustments, but when the eye close, it appeared to me that Matthysse was beginning to adjust, and the closed eye ruined the momentum.

I also thought Garcia fought dirty. I thought he hit low and frequently held when the fight was in close. He was called for a point in the 11th round, but how many times did Weeks warn him before he took a point? With a different referee and without the closed eye, I think the fight goes differently.

Does every close fight deserve a rematch? No way. But, fights where there is an argument that the outcome changed due to a cut/closed eye, to me have more grounds for rematches.

Basically, :footinmouth:

I've never heard of a rematch because of cuts.
I could go for a rematch for Rosado, the fight was pretty close and had my full attention, but no rematch because of the cuts.
Garcia had a good night with a solid win, no rematch.

i wouldnt use the word DESERVE because that can get kind of sticky. i think that both of them could rematch and it wouldnt be a bad thing, but saying they deserve a rematch is almost like saying that the winner then owes them a rematch which i dont think is true. both fights were won fairly.

i think that a garcia/matthysse fight could be great down the road because i believe that both can still win a few more matches and raise their stocks again to make a bigger rematch.

i dont think that quillin will ever rematch rosado because quillin is on the high road and rosado is just known as a tough fighter. there is really no reason for quillin to give rosado a rematch because the only person it helps is rosado. even if quillin easily beats him in a rematch, i dont think that quillin will all of the sudden be known as a world beater. also, there are definitely bigger money fights out there for him, fights that could push him into a big fight, and fights that could potentially be more exciting. many good fighters over the history of boxing have had tough fights with lesser competition. they usually just move on.

I don't personally think using the logic that Garcia gave Morales a rematch justifies the demand to give Mattthysse a rematch... Particularly an immediate one.

Of course one should happen somewhere down the line, assuming both fighters perform well, or are still at the same level but right now Garcia should be looking forward.

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Originally Posted by Rantcatrat

First, I want to make clear I don't think Garcia is obligated to do a rematch. I also am a big Matthysse fan and have already admitted to sour grapes on this fight. It was a tough fight and Garcia escaped with a win. If he wants to move on to tougher challengers, so be it. There are plenty of good fights for him that don't involve Matthysse including the Broner/Maidana winner, the Thurman/Karass winner, and Brooks. However, those fights are all at 147. At 140, outside of Lundy with the Philly angle, I'm not sure who else there is for Garcia to fight, other than a rematch.

In my opinion though, the welt grew in the 7th round. Prior to the _th round, I had the fight close. I thought he was getting to Garcia in the later rounds, especially when he knocked Garcia's mouthpiece out of his mouth and Weeks stepped in to get the mouthpiece, giving Matthysse time to recuperate. If he had both eyes, I'm not sure how that round would have ended. I thought I saw both guys make adjustments, but when the eye close, it appeared to me that Matthysse was beginning to adjust, and the closed eye ruined the momentum.

I also thought Garcia fought dirty. I thought he hit low and frequently held when the fight was in close. He was called for a point in the 11th round, but how many times did Weeks warn him before he took a point? With a different referee and without the closed eye, I think the fight goes differently.

Does every close fight deserve a rematch? No way. But, fights where there is an argument that the outcome changed due to a cut/closed eye, to me have more grounds for rematches.

Basically, :footinmouth:

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Fair enough. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see it again simply because it has the makings of a great action fight.

To me though, unless the cut actually stopped the fight (like with Rosado), I don't think it warrants a rematch. There have been other fights (Stiverne/Arreola recently, Pavlik/Martinez is another) where a cut, swelling, broken nose, ect changed the momentum of a fight, but to me that's just boxing. It's up to the fighter to overcome the damage, and if it isn't the doctor stopping the fight and taking that ability away from him, I don't think he has any reason to gripe.

I really like both guys, and I was one of the many who underestimated Garcia and thought Matthysse would be too much for Garcia. Danny really showed a huge pair of balls and underestimated boxing skill in winning a hard fought victory. I think on that accomplishment, he deserves to propell upwards and enjoy bigger fights.

So if they rematch, both of them, and both of them get cuts again, then what would we want?
:-\

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Originally Posted by Rantcatrat

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Originally Posted by Beanflicker

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Originally Posted by Rantcatrat

I tend to think in both cases that cut/eye closing changed the outcomes of the fights.

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What exactly did you see in that fight that made you think Matthysse would have won?

I thought Garcia proved that not only could he outbox Matthysse, but he could stand up to his power. Matthysse hit Garcia with some shots that IMO would have knocked out 95% of the JR WW division, but Garcia took them like a champ.

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First, I want to make clear I don't think Garcia is obligated to do a rematch. I also am a big Matthysse fan and have already admitted to sour grapes on this fight. It was a tough fight and Garcia escaped with a win. If he wants to move on to tougher challengers, so be it. There are plenty of good fights for him that don't involve Matthysse including the Broner/Maidana winner, the Thurman/Karass winner, and Brooks. However, those fights are all at 147. At 140, outside of Lundy with the Philly angle, I'm not sure who else there is for Garcia to fight, other than a rematch.

In my opinion though, the welt grew in the 7th round. Prior to the _th round, I had the fight close. I thought he was getting to Garcia in the later rounds, especially when he knocked Garcia's mouthpiece out of his mouth and Weeks stepped in to get the mouthpiece, giving Matthysse time to recuperate. If he had both eyes, I'm not sure how that round would have ended. I thought I saw both guys make adjustments, but when the eye close, it appeared to me that Matthysse was beginning to adjust, and the closed eye ruined the momentum.

I also thought Garcia fought dirty. I thought he hit low and frequently held when the fight was in close. He was called for a point in the 11th round, but how many times did Weeks warn him before he took a point? With a different referee and without the closed eye, I think the fight goes differently.

Does every close fight deserve a rematch? No way. But, fights where there is an argument that the outcome changed due to a cut/closed eye, to me have more grounds for rematches.

Basically, :footinmouth:

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If the roles were reversed would you want a rematch?

I had garcias back from day one.

Everyone was against him and he fought the perfect fight and none of lucas shots had any effect.

If it means more money in the bank for garcia and the mayweather fight cant be made then yes, close the other eye in the rematch.

Its onwards and upwards for garcia and im looking foward to seeing his progress without having to go backwards against the argentine hatton.

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Originally Posted by imp

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Originally Posted by Rantcatrat

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Originally Posted by Beanflicker

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Originally Posted by Rantcatrat

I tend to think in both cases that cut/eye closing changed the outcomes of the fights.

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What exactly did you see in that fight that made you think Matthysse would have won?

I thought Garcia proved that not only could he outbox Matthysse, but he could stand up to his power. Matthysse hit Garcia with some shots that IMO would have knocked out 95% of the JR WW division, but Garcia took them like a champ.

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First, I want to make clear I don't think Garcia is obligated to do a rematch. I also am a big Matthysse fan and have already admitted to sour grapes on this fight. It was a tough fight and Garcia escaped with a win. If he wants to move on to tougher challengers, so be it. There are plenty of good fights for him that don't involve Matthysse including the Broner/Maidana winner, the Thurman/Karass winner, and Brooks. However, those fights are all at 147. At 140, outside of Lundy with the Philly angle, I'm not sure who else there is for Garcia to fight, other than a rematch.

In my opinion though, the welt grew in the 7th round. Prior to the _th round, I had the fight close. I thought he was getting to Garcia in the later rounds, especially when he knocked Garcia's mouthpiece out of his mouth and Weeks stepped in to get the mouthpiece, giving Matthysse time to recuperate. If he had both eyes, I'm not sure how that round would have ended. I thought I saw both guys make adjustments, but when the eye close, it appeared to me that Matthysse was beginning to adjust, and the closed eye ruined the momentum.

I also thought Garcia fought dirty. I thought he hit low and frequently held when the fight was in close. He was called for a point in the 11th round, but how many times did Weeks warn him before he took a point? With a different referee and without the closed eye, I think the fight goes differently.

Does every close fight deserve a rematch? No way. But, fights where there is an argument that the outcome changed due to a cut/closed eye, to me have more grounds for rematches.

Basically, :footinmouth:

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If the roles were reversed would you want a rematch?

I had garcias back from day one.

Everyone was against him and he fought the perfect fight and none of lucas shots had any effect.

If it means more money in the bank for garcia and the mayweather fight cant be made then yes, close the other eye in the rematch.

Its onwards and upwards for garcia and im looking foward to seeing his progress without having to go backwards against the argentine hatton.

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I rooted for lucas still do, and will do so again if there is a rematch. Why do people seem opposed to a rematch here? I'm not saying immediatelly but give em a year or two and have them go at it again, was a fun fight and we've seen fights that were far less deservin of rematches get rematched. I know you rooted for danny and He won fair and square but let's not pretend it wasn't a good exciting closeish fight with back and forth action.

if garcia wants a rematch with matthysse right now then thats fine, but he wants a fight with mayweather so he wants to go up to 147. im not sure if matthysse has any plan on moving up to 147 in the near future. either way, garcia will prove his worth by beating a legit welterweight. so no, garcia doesnt want a rematch right away because he is on the road to fight mayweather.

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Originally Posted by imp

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Originally Posted by Rantcatrat

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Originally Posted by Beanflicker

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Originally Posted by Rantcatrat

I tend to think in both cases that cut/eye closing changed the outcomes of the fights.

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What exactly did you see in that fight that made you think Matthysse would have won?

I thought Garcia proved that not only could he outbox Matthysse, but he could stand up to his power. Matthysse hit Garcia with some shots that IMO would have knocked out 95% of the JR WW division, but Garcia took them like a champ.

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First, I want to make clear I don't think Garcia is obligated to do a rematch. I also am a big Matthysse fan and have already admitted to sour grapes on this fight. It was a tough fight and Garcia escaped with a win. If he wants to move on to tougher challengers, so be it. There are plenty of good fights for him that don't involve Matthysse including the Broner/Maidana winner, the Thurman/Karass winner, and Brooks. However, those fights are all at 147. At 140, outside of Lundy with the Philly angle, I'm not sure who else there is for Garcia to fight, other than a rematch.

In my opinion though, the welt grew in the 7th round. Prior to the _th round, I had the fight close. I thought he was getting to Garcia in the later rounds, especially when he knocked Garcia's mouthpiece out of his mouth and Weeks stepped in to get the mouthpiece, giving Matthysse time to recuperate. If he had both eyes, I'm not sure how that round would have ended. I thought I saw both guys make adjustments, but when the eye close, it appeared to me that Matthysse was beginning to adjust, and the closed eye ruined the momentum.

I also thought Garcia fought dirty. I thought he hit low and frequently held when the fight was in close. He was called for a point in the 11th round, but how many times did Weeks warn him before he took a point? With a different referee and without the closed eye, I think the fight goes differently.

Does every close fight deserve a rematch? No way. But, fights where there is an argument that the outcome changed due to a cut/closed eye, to me have more grounds for rematches.

Basically, :footinmouth:

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If the roles were reversed would you want a rematch?

I had garcias back from day one.

Everyone was against him and he fought the perfect fight and none of lucas shots had any effect.

If it means more money in the bank for garcia and the mayweather fight cant be made then yes, close the other eye in the rematch.

Its onwards and upwards for garcia and im looking foward to seeing his progress without having to go backwards against the argentine hatton.

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If it were the other way around, I would absolutely want a rematch. As I said before, what's not to like?

The Argentinian Hatton? That makes no sense, my friend. They fight nothing alike.

If it is onwards and upwards for Garcia, then fine so be it. If it isn't, then Matthysse is as good, if not better, than any other match out there. If he can get a fight with the Broner/Maidana winner, Thurman/Karass, or Mayweather, I can't blame him.

The reference is to the come forward hatton style. Both prepared to take a hit to land one. They both share that.

Either way, garcia came out of that fight without a mark on him and mattyhsssse needs to perhaps have a battle with maidana as garcia is moving on up like M people.