Age 95. The great man has passed on. Died peacefully at home.
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Age 95. The great man has passed on. Died peacefully at home.
RIP to whom most consider a great man.
celebs are dying as flies lately
Nelson Mandela dies at 95', Respect where it's due... that's 5 miles an hour faster than Paul Walker.
What a life.
Actually just finished his autobiography a few days ago, really great memoir.
I would say very sad, but I honestly feel that's a bit of a cliche in this case. He lived 95 years, and packed about as much into a life as you possibly can. Watching the news, I like the celebration aspect going on. A life to be celebrated.
Am I wrong? I understand that he was put in prison because he intended to blow up a school bus full of children. Is that correct?
Who the fuck cares? Fuck him. They consider this clown great just cuz he was incarcerated? I know a lot of muthafukkas incarcerated. Some for life. Would not call them great
To a certain extent he was a terrorist was he not?
Cue the facebook RIP brigade (none or which knew him)
I respect him for saying that the society of the time was wrong and for being political about it. My only disappointment was that when he was President his impact was largely compromised by national debt and international finance. In essence it meant he adopted the same kinds of hideous policies adopted by extremists in America and the UK; thus the so called 'terrorist' as labelled by Thatcher actually become somewat akin to a reflection of the hideous creature who would call him a terrorist; at least in terms of actual policies as President. South Africa today is still a country with blacks much poorer than whites, has serious problems violent crime, and has massive inequalities of wealth. I have a hard time reconciling anyone becoming President and after all the struggle not standing up for what is right. The Western blackmailers kept the old system in as long as possible and then when change had to come, they made sure they kept it in their interests. In that sense Mandela was used a little like a puppet. Probably a very decent man, but politically very vulnerable and manipulated.
A Terrorist is a Terrorist ;)
The hero of the anti-apartheid struggle was not the saint we want him to be.
The image of Nelson Mandela as a selfless, humble, freedom fighter turned cheerful, kindly old man, is well established in the West. If there is any international leader on whom we can universally heap praise it is surely he. But get past the halo we’ve placed on him without his permission, and Nelson Mandela had more than a few flaws which deserve attention.
He signed off on the deaths of innocent people, lots of them
Nelson Mandela was the head of UmKhonto we Sizwe, (MK), the terrorist wing of the ANC and South African Communist Party. At his trial, he had pleaded guilty to 156 acts of public violence including mobilising terrorist bombing campaigns, which planted bombs in public places, including the Johannesburg railway station. Many innocent people, including women and children, were killed by Nelson Mandela’s MK terrorists. Here are some highlights
-Church Street West, Pretoria, on the 20 May 1983
-Amanzimtoti Shopping complex KZN, 23 December 1985
-Krugersdorp Magistrate’s Court, 17 March 1988
-Durban Pick ‘n Pay shopping complex, 1 September 1986
-Pretoria Sterland movie complex 16 April 1988 – limpet mine killed ANC terrorist M O Maponya instead
-Johannesburg Magistrate’s Court, 20 May 1987
-Roodepoort Standard Bank 3 June, 1988
Tellingly, not only did Mandela refuse to renounce violence, Amnesty refused to take his case stating “[the] movement recorded that it could not give the name of ‘Prisoner of Conscience’ to anyone associated with violence, even though as in ‘conventional warfare’ a degree of restraint may be exercised.”
There is a lot of truth in what you say Smashup, but if we are going to use the word terrorist for anyone that will use violence against others, then we can't just use the term to describe the people we oppose, we have to use the term to describe our own elected leaders too. Britain and America have international terrorists walking free and the public were complicit in reelecting known terrorists. I agree with you that a terrorist is a terrorist and once you have blood on your hands, the label has to stay. I don't think having the veil of political power excuses one from being a terrorist.
My own criticisms of Mandela are only down to what I think was an ineffective stint as President. Mandela was supposedly extremely left wing, but to look at his impact and legacy, you would never have known it. South Africa was heavily in debt and at the mercy of the Western economic/political gangsters, but I wish he would have just resisted. In doing so South Africa would remain a pariah state and just be treated like Cuba and in that sense might have been a futile mission, but looking at South Africa today, it is what it is because the bankers/investors got what they wanted. The world needs more socialists with humanist values at the helm of political power. Unfortunately the system is rigged to isolate and sanction anyone who resists Western imperialism.
Got to give him his dues, he must of been a tough prick to have done a life term and still lived till 95 not many get to do that.
I suppose the biggest difference is the muthafuckers you know and the ones you dont wont be comming out to become the next the president of the US.Quote:
Originally Posted by Violent Demise
Like Miles says though, Mandela was the ideal puppet president.
The media and the world should tell the entirety of his story. A man who was frustrated and resorted to violence and then only after years in prison realized the flaws of his actions and sought peace.
This is a time to learn lessons about his life not to hold him up as a saint.
Also it was so refreshing to hear President Obama talk about someone OTHER than himself for a change....oh wait he didn't do that at all.
Everything relating to Mandela was "I, Me, My" even his fucking tweet "honoring" Mandela was ridiculous it was a quote by Barack Obama with a picture of Obama in Mandela's prison cell :vd:
Well, based purely on my twitter feed, it is depressing to see people who were 'truly shocked' and saddened at the death of Paul Walker making jokes about 'Has someone died? lol' when Mandela dies.
@smashup - It's easy to use the two wrongs don't make a right argument, but how much longer would apartheid have continued without the second wrongs that helped to bring the situation to its head and de Clerc having to bow to international pressure to end apartheid.
There's no such things as saints and as they say history is written by the winners, so there's no doubt that the negatives will be downplayed and the positives will be held up for all to see.
Sometimes the "positives" aren't so positive and the "negatives" are made up/imagined and vice versa. The War Between The States is a PERFECT example of when History stops being about truth and becomes about a false agenda.Quote:
Originally Posted by superheavyrhun
I don't know why people have these rose colored glasses on when talking about guys like Mandela and Che Guevera, who have so much blood on their hands.
Mandela was a historic figure for sure, but lets speak honestly about him instead of perpetuating the propaganda.
Nelson Mandela according to the world = One of the great men of our time.
Nelson Mandela according to Saddos = The world's biggest cunt.
Haha. I don't think he was that bad, I think the animosity comes from people looking at him as the virtue of peace, when he did have a bloody history that people either want to block out or are just too lazy to research.Quote:
Originally Posted by ryanman
Mandela has said himself that he did make mistakes and regrets some of his actions but without him there South Africa would have been in a worse state than it is now. The civil unrest would have been a lot worse.
Thatcher was wrong to not support sanctions and boycott South Africa.
You are all wrong to bring up his terrorism in the pretence that you think people are being hypocritical of his past. Stop trying to do a Miles, he does it with conviction and meaning – smashup you do it poorly.
Didn't Winnie Mandela have the worlds biggest cunt?Quote:
Originally Posted by ryanman
Losing Paul Walker was worse than losing Mandela.Quote:
Originally Posted by superheavyrhun
The voice of reason :cool:.Quote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong
The hypocrisy lies with Dicks like Cameron who never took a stand against Apartheid
Cameron's freebie to apartheid South Africa - UK Politics - UK - The Independent and now can't wait to spout a soundbite. At least Bush who stupidly called anyone who wasn't a right wing conservative "a communist" seems to have kept his gob shut.It is lazy and self righteous to judge Mandela and his actions from the standpoint of a white person not living in South Africa when he began to stand his ground. Of course he is not a saint but few people finding themselves in his situation would have used that opportunity to do so much good. Ghandi's idea of a spinning wheel in every Indian house would have hurled it back into the dark ages but that does not negate the incredible achievements he initiated in taking on the British Empire. People seem to be in a rush to prove their own credibility in not being taken in by the medias spin. You have to willfully disregard so much to lend some of the comments here any credibility. Have some respect and try at least to look for some common ground while his family and country are in mourning.
http://fast.swide.com/wp-content/upl...boxing-gym.jpg
Nelson Mandela, boxer: fought in the ring before he fought apartheid - Swide
I think most people respect that Mandela stood up against a hideous system and eventually managed to become President himself, but that doesn't mean that his legacy as actual President should be swept under the carpet.
Watching American CNN yesterday was a massive exercise in double standards and hypocrisy. They had war criminal Blair fawning away, Bush of course got his Tweet in, and EVERY person was waffling on as though Mandela was a saint. There was not a single mention of Mandela's violent past, there was not a single criticism of his tenure as President. Now I am not saying anyone needs to raked over hot coals, but a little balance should be the order of the day in a news network and there was none. The only place I see balancing the sheet is The Real News and of course nobody will see that as it isn't selected via remote control.
Furthermore, the kinds of people in 'mourning' were the same people that had Mandela on terrorist lists until 2008, the same people who ignore the apartheid in occupied Palestine, the same countries that actively supported apartheid South Africa. That for me is the most galling aspect of it all.
My final observation is that you are going to have Mandela, like Luther King, put into saint mode and have the content and meaning of what they believed hidden under the carpets. Racial equality is important, but the true message of Luther King was warning against US militarism and wealth inequality. These two things are worse than ever before and yet every year that gets lost under the innacurate notion that race is not such a massive issue in American society. Mandela was typically scornful of the West as a younger man and later somewhat sold out, but that was what Mandela was about. When you get old, you want a quiet life, but the younger Mandela and the message within is something being totally ignored by the mainstream media right now. It will likely vanish into the ether like the main tenets of Luther King.
Rest in peace Mandela. It was the Jerry Dammers and Specials spin off song that brought him to attention in 84'. Yeh, revolutionary and rebel who resorted to violence and was no saint early on against an oppressive violent authority, and became leader of a nation...sound familiar? The company he kept and the means to an end sought were no worse than some of our own leaders at one time or another. He wasn't a Saint, and neither are we. Might just be me, I think John Brown might of had the right idea given the circumstances!
The worlds media says the former, the latter is just being a bit more realistic. The mainstream media in particular is a grooming exercise, you know the deal with power and control. They need to project Mandela as saint as he capitulated to the West and justifies them and their about turn on him.Quote:
Originally Posted by ryanman
The reality is that South Africa is still a basket case country and the only real difference is that everyone can now vote, but now more white people are joining the blacks in poverty. Admittedly, some blacks have done very well, but Mandela as President was an exercise in capitulation to the so called demands of national debt and imperial control.
He should have given a fuck you gesture and allowed South Africa to be as screwed up as it would be now anyway. At least stay true to proper values. Instead it just became the American model but with more violent crime. 'You can vote, but the US investors control this country'. That was Mandela's political legacy.
You've had Castro as an AV, you more than most know what choices you should make when people are going to listen to you. Would I after all my whining let myself come back to the UK after exile and allow the Queen to remain? I would push her off Worthing Pier and tell her children, "now get a job as you are the real definition of bullshit". You don't capitulate and sell out just because you are older.
You tell them straight and instead Mandela sold out. Of course major news networks are like drooling bunnies, South Africa was a money spinner, and when you could have had a real resistance, Mandela was preyed upon. Just a weak old man and there is no shame in that, but of course getting someone old and vulnerable will be shouted to the rafters.
Mandela was a courageous, charming and brilliant man, but he was fed into a den of hyena's and said fair do's. He lived a long time, he could have done it hardcore like the sacrifice that he made.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
Explain to everyone what you think is wrong with posting the facts that he gave orders for bombings that claimed hundreds of innocent lives?
I couldn't give a flying fuck what he did for Africa after his release, im just stating facts.
I have stated a number of facts as well. Trying to undermine his legacy at this time is not clever.Quote:
Originally Posted by smashupQuote:
Originally Posted by Master
Explain to everyone what you think is wrong with posting the facts that he gave orders for bombings that claimed hundreds of innocent lives?
I couldn't give a flying fuck what he did for Africa after his release, im just stating facts.
Mind you, I was being flippant with language and I wouldn't push the Queen off a pier. I would have her locked up like Mandela because she is the opposite of social equality. Mandela of course stood up for a society that is far more free than British society. Britain is under a class based apartheid, but for some reason refuses to shake off the bounds of a single family.
You couldn't give a damn any which way as you just stated. Those facts are something you have never looked into and never would. This issue is not on your radar.Quote:
Originally Posted by smashupQuote:
Originally Posted by Master
Explain to everyone what you think is wrong with posting the facts that he gave orders for bombings that claimed hundreds of innocent lives?
I couldn't give a flying fuck what he did for Africa after his release, im just stating facts.
You were simply trying to score brownie points with your 'a terrorist is a terrorist' claim but you are so pig ignorant and stupid that you cannot argue anything that you say as it was all cut and pasted. It was just "let's post the opposite of 'miles'" and in truth you cannot back it up with a view of your own.
That is why you have stayed quiet when it comes to being real about British and American governments. You are all timid and shy when it comes to serious war crimes. You care about Mandela being a terrorist and cared nothing in all the threads I have made about serious issues in our country. You don't care about terrorists, you care about brownie points, but are so absurd that you fail to see that I am beyond all human checkpoints.
What are you doing in a thread like this anyway? It's a pose, you have no interest in politics. Suddenly Mandela is an issue? At least be consistant. My point of view is reliable. Your sudden dislike of Mandela is a weirdness.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterI have stated a number of facts as well. Trying to undermine his legacy at this time is not clever.Quote:
Originally Posted by smashupQuote:
Originally Posted by Master
Explain to everyone what you think is wrong with posting the facts that he gave orders for bombings that claimed hundreds of innocent lives?
I couldn't give a flying fuck what he did for Africa after his release, im just stating facts.
Not a case of trying to be clever, yes he did great things post prison but It didn't and hasn't affected my life in the slightest, I doubt it has yours either.
I posted some facts that he was a terrorist which he was and to be honest that only scratches the surface of his past.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GandalfYou couldn't give a damn any which way as you just stated. Those facts are something you have never looked into and never would. This issue is not on your radar.Quote:
Originally Posted by smashupQuote:
Originally Posted by Master
Explain to everyone what you think is wrong with posting the facts that he gave orders for bombings that claimed hundreds of innocent lives?
I couldn't give a flying fuck what he did for Africa after his release, im just stating facts.
You were simply trying to score brownie points with your 'a terrorist is a terrorist' claim but you are so pig ignorant and stupid that you cannot argue anything that you say as it was all cut and pasted. It was just "let's post the opposite of 'miles'" and in truth you cannot back it up with a view of your own.
That is why you have stayed quiet when it comes to being real about British and American governments. You are all timid and shy when it comes to serious war crimes. You care about Mandela being a terrorist and cared nothing in all the threads I have made about serious issues in our country. You don't care about terrorists, you care about brownie points, but are so absurd that you fail to see that I am beyond all human checkpoints.
What are you doing in a thread like this anyway? It's a pose, you have no interest in politics. Suddenly Mandela is an issue? At least be consistant. My point of view is reliable. Your sudden dislike of Mandela is a weirdness.
Sudden?
Don't presume to know my thoughts on anyone.
And I don't read your posts about British or US governments because your opinions bore me and don't interest me.
I already told you this which your obviously still upset about :)
Why mention he was a terrorist, if the post prison Mandela did not affect you then the one before the prison did not either.Quote:
Originally Posted by smashupQuote:
Originally Posted by MasterI have stated a number of facts as well. Trying to undermine his legacy at this time is not clever.Quote:
Originally Posted by smashupQuote:
Originally Posted by Master
Explain to everyone what you think is wrong with posting the facts that he gave orders for bombings that claimed hundreds of innocent lives?
I couldn't give a flying fuck what he did for Africa after his release, im just stating facts.
Not a case of trying to be clever, yes he did great things post prison but It didn't and hasn't affected my life in the slightest, I doubt it has yours either.
I posted some facts that he was a terrorist which he was and to be honest that only scratches the surface of his past.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterWhy mention he was a terrorist, if the post prison Mandela did not affect you then the one before the prison did not either.Quote:
Originally Posted by smashupQuote:
Originally Posted by MasterI have stated a number of facts as well. Trying to undermine his legacy at this time is not clever.Quote:
Originally Posted by smashupQuote:
Originally Posted by Master
Explain to everyone what you think is wrong with posting the facts that he gave orders for bombings that claimed hundreds of innocent lives?
I couldn't give a flying fuck what he did for Africa after his release, im just stating facts.
Not a case of trying to be clever, yes he did great things post prison but It didn't and hasn't affected my life in the slightest, I doubt it has yours either.
I posted some facts that he was a terrorist which he was and to be honest that only scratches the surface of his past.
Why not post that he was a terrorist ?
The thread is about NM and he was a terrorist.
Simple :)
He was also a great man that united a nation and was a symbol of freedom from a racist society.Quote:
Originally Posted by smashupQuote:
Originally Posted by MasterWhy mention he was a terrorist, if the post prison Mandela did not affect you then the one before the prison did not either.Quote:
Originally Posted by smashupQuote:
Originally Posted by MasterI have stated a number of facts as well. Trying to undermine his legacy at this time is not clever.Quote:
Originally Posted by smashupQuote:
Originally Posted by Master
Explain to everyone what you think is wrong with posting the facts that he gave orders for bombings that claimed hundreds of innocent lives?
I couldn't give a flying fuck what he did for Africa after his release, im just stating facts.
Not a case of trying to be clever, yes he did great things post prison but It didn't and hasn't affected my life in the slightest, I doubt it has yours either.
I posted some facts that he was a terrorist which he was and to be honest that only scratches the surface of his past.
Why not post that he was a terrorist ?
The thread is about NM and he was a terrorist.
Simple :)
I'm so boring that you threatened to physically 'drop me'. I'm so boring that you have accused me of being a new member. I am so boring that you have accused me of being so terribly boring that my wife must be deaf.Quote:
Originally Posted by smashupQuote:
Originally Posted by GandalfYou couldn't give a damn any which way as you just stated. Those facts are something you have never looked into and never would. This issue is not on your radar.Quote:
Originally Posted by smashupQuote:
Originally Posted by Master
Explain to everyone what you think is wrong with posting the facts that he gave orders for bombings that claimed hundreds of innocent lives?
I couldn't give a flying fuck what he did for Africa after his release, im just stating facts.
You were simply trying to score brownie points with your 'a terrorist is a terrorist' claim but you are so pig ignorant and stupid that you cannot argue anything that you say as it was all cut and pasted. It was just "let's post the opposite of 'miles'" and in truth you cannot back it up with a view of your own.
That is why you have stayed quiet when it comes to being real about British and American governments. You are all timid and shy when it comes to serious war crimes. You care about Mandela being a terrorist and cared nothing in all the threads I have made about serious issues in our country. You don't care about terrorists, you care about brownie points, but are so absurd that you fail to see that I am beyond all human checkpoints.
What are you doing in a thread like this anyway? It's a pose, you have no interest in politics. Suddenly Mandela is an issue? At least be consistant. My point of view is reliable. Your sudden dislike of Mandela is a weirdness.
Sudden?
Don't presume to know my thoughts on anyone.
And I don't read your posts about British or US governments because your opinions bore me and don't interest me.
I already told you this which your obviously still upset about :)
Show me your interesting side Smashup because you are quite frankly fascinated and it inspired you politically.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GandalfI'm so boring that you threatened to physically 'drop me'. I'm so boring that you have accused me of being a new member. I am so boring that you have accused me of being so terribly boring that my wife must be deaf.Quote:
Originally Posted by smashupQuote:
Originally Posted by GandalfYou couldn't give a damn any which way as you just stated. Those facts are something you have never looked into and never would. This issue is not on your radar.Quote:
Originally Posted by smashupQuote:
Originally Posted by Master
Explain to everyone what you think is wrong with posting the facts that he gave orders for bombings that claimed hundreds of innocent lives?
I couldn't give a flying fuck what he did for Africa after his release, im just stating facts.
You were simply trying to score brownie points with your 'a terrorist is a terrorist' claim but you are so pig ignorant and stupid that you cannot argue anything that you say as it was all cut and pasted. It was just "let's post the opposite of 'miles'" and in truth you cannot back it up with a view of your own.
That is why you have stayed quiet when it comes to being real about British and American governments. You are all timid and shy when it comes to serious war crimes. You care about Mandela being a terrorist and cared nothing in all the threads I have made about serious issues in our country. You don't care about terrorists, you care about brownie points, but are so absurd that you fail to see that I am beyond all human checkpoints.
What are you doing in a thread like this anyway? It's a pose, you have no interest in politics. Suddenly Mandela is an issue? At least be consistant. My point of view is reliable. Your sudden dislike of Mandela is a weirdness.
Sudden?
Don't presume to know my thoughts on anyone.
And I don't read your posts about British or US governments because your opinions bore me and don't interest me.
I already told you this which your obviously still upset about :)
Show me your interesting side Smashup because you are quite frankly fascinated and it inspired you politically.
I don't have to show you shit son.
Fuck me I really did upset you :)
Your weakness comes from your terrible childhood you had when your family split up right?
You like the English Defence League. But Mandela is a terrorist and anything else he did doesn't mean anything to you.Quote:
Originally Posted by smashupQuote:
Originally Posted by GandalfI'm so boring that you threatened to physically 'drop me'. I'm so boring that you have accused me of being a new member. I am so boring that you have accused me of being so terribly boring that my wife must be deaf.Quote:
Originally Posted by smashupQuote:
Originally Posted by GandalfYou couldn't give a damn any which way as you just stated. Those facts are something you have never looked into and never would. This issue is not on your radar.Quote:
Originally Posted by smashupQuote:
Originally Posted by Master
Explain to everyone what you think is wrong with posting the facts that he gave orders for bombings that claimed hundreds of innocent lives?
I couldn't give a flying fuck what he did for Africa after his release, im just stating facts.
You were simply trying to score brownie points with your 'a terrorist is a terrorist' claim but you are so pig ignorant and stupid that you cannot argue anything that you say as it was all cut and pasted. It was just "let's post the opposite of 'miles'" and in truth you cannot back it up with a view of your own.
That is why you have stayed quiet when it comes to being real about British and American governments. You are all timid and shy when it comes to serious war crimes. You care about Mandela being a terrorist and cared nothing in all the threads I have made about serious issues in our country. You don't care about terrorists, you care about brownie points, but are so absurd that you fail to see that I am beyond all human checkpoints.
What are you doing in a thread like this anyway? It's a pose, you have no interest in politics. Suddenly Mandela is an issue? At least be consistant. My point of view is reliable. Your sudden dislike of Mandela is a weirdness.
Sudden?
Don't presume to know my thoughts on anyone.
And I don't read your posts about British or US governments because your opinions bore me and don't interest me.
I already told you this which your obviously still upset about :)
Show me your interesting side Smashup because you are quite frankly fascinated and it inspired you politically.
I don't have to show you shit son.
Fuck me I really did upset you :)
Your weakness comes from your terrible childhood you had when your family split up right?
Strange viewpoint.
Also, Miles is more interesting than you've ever been. His stories about broken rice cookers are more interesting than your tales (and I use that word advisedly) about escaping the Russian Mafia hidden inside a high class hooker's fur hat.