I do not believe in the concept that a fighter can over train and become stale. A fit and active fighter is better than a fighter who is peaking for a fight. Show me a fighter who says they over trained and I show you someone who has just lost.
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I do not believe in the concept that a fighter can over train and become stale. A fit and active fighter is better than a fighter who is peaking for a fight. Show me a fighter who says they over trained and I show you someone who has just lost.
Master you are not an athlete like everyone else on here so you wouldn't understand.;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
There is the first excuse from loser number one dark lord all. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Lord AlMaster you are not an athlete like everyone else on here so you wouldn't understand.;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
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I agree it's generally an excuse but it's also definitely a real thing. But 9/10 it's dumb training not over training. For instance Vivian Harris running 10 miles the night before a fight. That's not over training that's stupid training but they called it over training.
Yeah I'm sure it's used a lot as an excuse when it's not the case, but it is definitely a real thing. When you're talking about amateur athletics, who gives a shit. But it's definitely important for the pros to peak at the right time.
I don't think it's a valid excuse, though. It's a sign of stupidity and/or imcompetence. A pro athlete - especially one with experience competing on the world stage - should know how to train by now.
It's like the inverse excuse of when guys say "oh I only lost because I wasn't in shape." Really? So you're lazy? No discipline? You don't take pride in your performance? Good to know, dummy.
Master, you are talking about two different things here. A fit and active fighter trains smart, lets his body heal and doesnt over train.
An active fighter who doesn't train smart, rest and let his body heal is still in for trouble even tho he is active.
Its really pretty easy to over train especially as you get older. Even when your young its easy to over train and have naggy injuries that wont heal. Some people can get away with it for years but it will eventually catch up with everyone that does it.
The main issue with over training imo tho is your stamina/cardio will hit a brick wall and usually back track (in my case). When I feel like im having trouble going as many rounds as I usually do I will try to push thru. If im not back on track in a week I go more light days than usual and even take some extra days off and I get back on track within a week and a half or 2 weeks.
Over training is a real thing and I gaurentee fighters, especially lower level fighters who cant afford the top notch trainers, lose fights because of it all the time. Maybe they would have lost those fights anyway but over training will defiantely contribute to a loss.
Bomber Bruno was definitely guilty of this in his big fights in the 80s. I suspect nerves played a part.
You can deffinitly fuck the timing of your training up!
Just think of doing a basic excercise like bicep curls. If you do them as hard as you can one day and the next your biceps are sore, you will not be able to do the same amount of effort. Unless you leave them 2 or 3 days, depending on how fit they are already.
They need to have a good rest period before the fight and between weight training and sparring etc.
This is why short notice opponents are shit. Unless they have been active as in a few fights in the year before hand and their last fight not too many weeks ago and have been in the gym ticking over, they will be shit. If they had a weeks notice there will be nothing other than some sparring and pad work to sharpen themselves up that they can do. They will not get any fitness or stamina benefit in any less than two weeks.
You can overtrain before a fight BUT could david price have used that excuse twice with tony thompson.
I know someone on here said Mosely over trained against Floyd which why he could not capitalise from round 2.
Also read a book where Sugar Ray Robinson's trainer said to him to take some time off because he was getting stale in sparring. I know it can happen but like some posters have said it is very unprofessional to end up that way.
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Originally Posted by imp
As far as making any excuse after a loss, I think everyone gets annoyed by that. I know I get annoyed when I hear any athlete from any sport make an excuse after losing. I do see the mentality behind it tho....
Firstly, if they athlete is famous/successful enough for people to even hear about an excuse they made then that whatever sport that athlete plays is how he/she makes their money. When an athlete loses it hurts their stock. Stock=money. Since the athletes livelihood revolves around this of course some will try to regain some stock after a loss.
With that being said, no one wants to here an excuse. An athlete will gain much more respect by showing class and keeping it behind closed doors imo.
My coach always before a match pulled me back a bit... he said to me "Do not peak before fight time!"... because, when you peak, your mind becomes stale and you lose your edge. Chemically speaking, you blow your testosterone wad and then you have nothing for fight night.
It's not that you aren't conditioned, cardio-vascular wise and muscle wise, but your testosterone and "heat" will burn out... you need heat for fight night.
;)
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Originally Posted by Master
As far as fighters on this level (or on any level for that matter), I think over training is the worst excuse they could come up with. At the same time its one of the most legit things that can really effect you during a fight.
Its the worst excuse because you can control it, there is no obvious signs of it, there is no way to prove it, etc, etc (im sure I can come up with many more). Even if an athlete is severly over trained going into an event, if they lose then the opponent was purely better trained on that night. The athlete is healthy but their opponent trained better and is better on that night.
Its one of the most legit things that will really hurt you in the ring because when you over train its gonna hurt your cardio and that's the worst thing that can happen to you in the ring.
It does happen but it's an over-used excuse.
If you follow the Thai scene you see their top fighters fighter 6, 7, 8 times a year. Sure the bouts are often mismatches but they help keep the guy sharp and in ring condition. A guy like Srisaket can't blow up between fights because he's back out in 6 weeks.
You can certainly over train. This is one of the hallmarks of a great trainer, getting a guy to peak at the right time. This used to be tied real tight to a guy having to make weight the day of the fight.
Now, that has gone the way of the dinosaur, along with teaching a guy how to fight. But being over trained used to refer to the improper shedding of weight.
I disagree that you can overtrain.
You can however underrest, they sound similar but they are not.
You can't over train because your body won't let you, you can train a exact amount based on your energy intake and general health, stamina, strength, etc.
It's the lack of rest that would be the issue, for instance.
Unrealistic
Energy 100%
Mon - Gym day - 80%
Tue - Gym day - 60%
Wed - Gym day - 40%
Thur - Rest day - 100%
Realistic
Energy 100%
Mon - Gym day - 83%
Tue - Gym day - 57%
Wed - Gym day - 20%
Thur - Rest day - 75%
It's this type of non linear statistic that can ruin a muscle or fool you into feeling fit as a fiddle, as it is a fact that people believe in a 2/1 or 3/1 ratio. They believe that if they train 3 or 2 days then 1 EXACT day of rest is enough, which simply is rarely the case. You don't decrease by exactly 20% a day for 3 days at the gym, then back to 100% after 1 rest day.
As for fighters who make the kind of money Kessler made against Froch in the second fight, they should be much more aware and should have the type of team around them who can judge these things.
I believe Kessler was tired and did gas out, but most use it purely as an excuse.
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Originally Posted by Vendettos
Good post Vendettos and your exactly right.
However you can definitely over train and it is different than what your describing above.
The effects of over training are more profound and takes longer to recover from. I would say over training occurs from consistant under resting.
When your under rested you can take a few days off and jump back in like you never left off. You easily get back to intense, full work outs that your used to.
If your over trained you can get rested up but when you jump back in its like your starting all over. You will still wont go as many rounds as you want and you have to build back up. All the gains you thought you were getting while over training were actually losses.
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Originally Posted by Master
Its a fine line imo. I think the guys that are actually effected by it never use it as an excuse. One of my favourite fighters Ricky Hatton at times looked flat or sluggish like he left his best performance at the gym. Now in his case as everyone knows he really went humpty dumpty in between fights. So in a way I dont see how he was able to yoyo like that w/o over training. He had to overdue it. No pain, no gain. I dont recall Ricky ever using it as an excuse.
I think people can confuse over training with those who are forced to rip and tear to make the scales because they have no business fighting there. So by that, many, many "overtrain". Many of those and in many cases have issues with re hydration. We all metabolize differently and some of those subtle differences at times have more then a subtle effect. Some have mastered the process and get it down to a science until their body refuses to cooperate as they age. Morales is a great example of this when he fought at 122. I remember my jaw dropping on several occasions because he looked like rice paper covering a skeleton. Then at fight time, he looked like a full fitted lightweight or close to it and proceeded.
So in that sense I suppose everybody is over training so its illogical to attempt to use it as an excuse knowing full well that over training per say is part of the job description.
Take the Oscar/Manny scenario. Oscar never over-trained.He simply provided more evidence of the stupid gene.Not to be undone, Chad Dawson years later decided to attempt to one up him. Oscar had not made welter in close to 10 years and had issues with the weight in the first Shane fight at the end of his prime. Its the reason the second fight was at 154.
A cocaine and watermelon diet may help you lose weight rapidly but it wont help you on fight night. Now I dont know if that's what he did but he did royally F-up. He made 145 and then only rehydrated 2 freakin pounds over 24 hours and it showed. They should have just nailed his feet to the floor and been done with it.
Yoyo weight's are a real problem and when it backfires on people "overtraining" is the go to term.