I now rank Floyd somwhere between top 30-40 all time...

First and foremost I hope all you fuckers are doing well... Been a while since I posted here. I missed you (some not all) sad fucks. For those who don't know me damn! I've been gone too long. For those that do, fuck off! ;D

So I was thinking as Floyds career begins to wind down where will he end up in my all time list? Keep in mind lists are like assholes. Everybody's got one. Depending on how you rank fighters. He can be top 100, top 50 or in my case 30-40.
THE ONLY THING FLOYD LACKS COMPARED TO THESE GUYS IS OPPOSITION.
Even then he gets full credit from me for his fights vs. Chicanito Hernandez, Cotto, Corrales, Hatton, C. Hernandez, Chavez, Castillo. Since the Mosley fight regardless of how you view his opposition he has fought some top names. He just makes them look mediocre. Even after he settled in vs. Maidana he was making him look slow and average at times.
Keep in mind I DON'T rank fighters whom I don't know enough of and or have not seen enough footage to judge them on. I simply refuse to rank fighters I've seen and know a lot of with fighters whom I've only read of. With that being said over time I've learned more and more about a lot of fighters whom 8 or 9 years ago I did not know much of and now today I can rank them.

Notable fighters I don't rank: Sam Langford, Harry Greb, Bob Fitzsimmons, Joe Gans, Benny Leonard & Mickey Walker among others.

So here it is for you to shred & tare apart... Where does Floyd rank all time? Today for me anywhere between 30-40.

40. Oscar De La Hoya
39. Carlos Zarate
38. Miguel Canto
37. Manuel Ortiz
36. Lou Ambers
35. Dick Tiger
34. Marciano
33. Saldivar
32. Wilfredo Gomez
31. Holyfield
30. Olivares
29. Hopkins
28. Harada
27. Carlos Ortiz
26. Ike Williams
25. Hearns
24. M. Spinks
23. Jofre
22. Sanchez
21. Lopez
20. Arguello
19. Napoles
18. Emile
17. Kid Gavilan
16. Roy Jones
15. Hagler
14, Canzoneri
13. Pernell
12. Ross
11. Louis
10. Monzon
9. Chavez
8. SRL
7. Archie
6. Pep
5. Duran
4. Ezzard
3. Ali
2. Armstrong
1. SRR

Spam!

Just kidding! Welcome back!

By the way I scored the fight 115-113 for Floyd...

1. M
2. F
3. M
4. M
5. M
6. F
7. F
8. F
9. F
10. F (The toughest round to score for me)
11. M (Tough round to score)
12. F (Tough round to score)

My score card was:
1-floyd
2-floyd
3-marcos
4-marcos
5-marcos
6-floyd
7-floyd
8-marcos
9-floyd
10-floyd
11-floyd
12-marcos

For all his wild aggression, Maidana wasn't really connecting much. Remember punches to the hips, upper back, lower back and back of the head aren't scoring blows. Neither are dick punches.

Mick, just curious as to how u rank Roy ahead of Floyd, Hop, n Oscar? R u ranking more off of potential vs accomplishments?

I agree with number 1 so who cares about the rest.;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mikeeod

Mick, just curious as to how u rank Roy ahead of Floyd, Hop, n Oscar? R u ranking more off of potential vs accomplishments?

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@mikeeod
RJJ catches a lot of shit for the latter part of his career... While it does take into consideration. My ranking consists of an all time career. This means opposition, accomplishments, titles, overall skills, wins vs. loses.
Take someone like Emile Griffith or Ezzard Charles with over 20 loses. Yes they form part of their record but it needs to be noted the loses came at the end of their careers.

RJJ was a supreme fighter unlike anything we have ever seen and probably will ever see. Part human part amazing. I used to rank RJJ very low on my lists about 5 yrs ago I don't even think he was in my top 30 until I took off my "hater" glasses and saw his career for what it was. Saw his skills without thinking well it's just Gonzalez or Kelly or it was a young Hopkins or a young Toney. RJJ at his peak was the most athletically gifted boxer that has ever stepped into a ring.

I say this often my lists tend to change as I learn more and more, years back I couldn't rank Ezzard, Canzoneri or Ross but I've been doing a lot of research and reading and watching as many of their fights as I could get a hold of.

Floyd's in my top 3 of all time easily.

Props for being brave and put out a list. Everybody will pick it apart. Good to see you around Mick!



I completely disagree but who cares....;D

well you seem to know what you are talking about which is nice. although i have a few problems with your list, its not too bad. i am like you though, there are certain fighters that i just dont know enough about. maybe i just dont know enough about ezzard charles but you seem to rank him really high for some reason. although he is arguably the best LHW ever.

for me, i cant rank floyd below top 25 but im sure that he is in my top 20. i havent made a list so i cant say for sure where. he isnt in my top 10 though.

i am glad that you have taken off your hater glasses for jones. he was so good and people just hate on him. IMO, he is the best fighter of the past 25 years.

Good to see you Cut i thought you might of died or something like think saddo did also i agree with alot of the list but not all of it but shit well thought out at least. After all this talk of rating think we should have atg list for old generation and the new one split up. Like form the 1900 to 1960's and the 1970's to like now and then have a ranking list for those eras kinda like hall of fame has i think. Anyhow i am curious how much footage did you get to see of the older fighters a lot of the older ones i have really search to see and read a fucking shit ton about sure as shit ain't easy i will tell you that.

Don't call it a comeback!! Ha. Agreed on his area of rank though ATG list can at times be as subjective and broad as even a p4p list. Titles, defences, opposition, or just looking at a guy and knowing he's more skilled...etc. Its a big difficult ball of wax at times. I'd have a hard time putting Sr. in the top 10 but that's just me. Jones I still have not cracking 20 ish and put Lopez ahead although like you said he too may take strikes because of lack of comp or even moving up. But on skill and pure craft Lopez, on athleticism and phenomenal reflex Jones. I still think Mayweather will always regret his departure immediately after Hatton as the division seemed to pass him by and he indeed missed some big opportunities to cement greatness. I gotta crash. Welcome back chief!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CutMeMick

First and foremost I hope all you fuckers are doing well... Been a while since I posted here. I missed you (some not all) sad fucks. For those who don't know me damn! I've been gone too long. For those that do, fuck off! ;D

So I was thinking as Floyds career begins to wind down where will he end up in my all time list? Keep in mind lists are like assholes. Everybody's got one. Depending on how you rank fighters. He can be top 100, top 50 or in my case 30-40.
THE ONLY THING FLOYD LACKS COMPARED TO THESE GUYS IS OPPOSITION.
Even then he gets full credit from me for his fights vs. Chicanito Hernandez, Cotto, Corrales, Hatton, C. Hernandez, Chavez, Castillo. Since the Mosley fight regardless of how you view his opposition he has fought some top names. He just makes them look mediocre. Even after he settled in vs. Maidana he was making him look slow and average at times.
Keep in mind I DON'T rank fighters whom I don't know enough of and or have not seen enough footage to judge them on. I simply refuse to rank fighters I've seen and know a lot of with fighters whom I've only read of. With that being said over time I've learned more and more about a lot of fighters whom 8 or 9 years ago I did not know much of and now today I can rank them.

Notable fighters I don't rank: Sam Langford, Harry Greb, Bob Fitzsimmons, Joe Gans, Benny Leonard & Mickey Walker among others.

So here it is for you to shred & tare apart... Where does Floyd rank all time? Today for me anywhere between 30-40.

40. Oscar De La Hoya
39. Carlos Zarate
38. Miguel Canto
37. Manuel Ortiz
36. Lou Ambers
35. Dick Tiger
34. Marciano
33. Saldivar
32. Wilfredo Gomez
31. Holyfield
30. Olivares
29. Hopkins
28. Harada
27. Carlos Ortiz
26. Ike Williams
25. Hearns
24. M. Spinks
23. Jofre
22. Sanchez
21. Lopez
20. Arguello
19. Napoles
18. Emile
17. Kid Gavilan
16. Roy Jones
15. Hagler
14, Canzoneri
13. Pernell
12. Ross
11. Louis
10. Monzon
9. Chavez
8. SRL
7. Archie
6. Pep
5. Duran
4. Ezzard
3. Ali
2. Armstrong
1. SRR

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no HOLMES......no TYSON..........oh dear....also no Chris Eubank....surely a mistake


Job Biscuit (Having butter scones in the garden)!!!!




eh eh!!!

whether anyone agrees with it or not its a good effort

for me in terms of his actual carear and whos hes fought blaa blaa blaa you coud rank him somewhere between 30 and 40

i personally think that if all those fighters were to actually fight each other in some kind of lb4lb super tournament then floyd would finish a lot higher than 30 to 40th

as would calazaghe finish a lot higher than not on it :)

Mick!!! Oh sheit! Welcome back. Hella happy to see you here...

:cool: since 'selfies' have really kicked off, I imagine you've been pretty busy ay?

I agree with not rating people who you haven't seen.... I tried looking for footage of Harry Greb recently and it was like looking for footage of Jesus!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CutMeMick

First and foremost I hope all you fuckers are doing well... Been a while since I posted here. I missed you (some not all) sad fucks. For those who don't know me damn! I've been gone too long. For those that do, fuck off! ;D

So I was thinking as Floyds career begins to wind down where will he end up in my all time list? Keep in mind lists are like assholes. Everybody's got one. Depending on how you rank fighters. He can be top 100, top 50 or in my case 30-40.
THE ONLY THING FLOYD LACKS COMPARED TO THESE GUYS IS OPPOSITION.
Even then he gets full credit from me for his fights vs. Chicanito Hernandez, Cotto, Corrales, Hatton, C. Hernandez, Chavez, Castillo. Since the Mosley fight regardless of how you view his opposition he has fought some top names. He just makes them look mediocre. Even after he settled in vs. Maidana he was making him look slow and average at times.
Keep in mind I DON'T rank fighters whom I don't know enough of and or have not seen enough footage to judge them on. I simply refuse to rank fighters I've seen and know a lot of with fighters whom I've only read of. With that being said over time I've learned more and more about a lot of fighters whom 8 or 9 years ago I did not know much of and now today I can rank them.

Notable fighters I don't rank: Sam Langford, Harry Greb, Bob Fitzsimmons, Joe Gans, Benny Leonard & Mickey Walker among others.

So here it is for you to shred & tare apart... Where does Floyd rank all time? Today for me anywhere between 30-40.

40. Oscar De La Hoya
39. Carlos Zarate
38. Miguel Canto
37. Manuel Ortiz
36. Lou Ambers
35. Dick Tiger
34. Marciano
33. Saldivar
32. Wilfredo Gomez
31. Holyfield
30. Olivares
29. Hopkins
28. Harada
27. Carlos Ortiz
26. Ike Williams
25. Hearns
24. M. Spinks
23. Jofre
22. Sanchez
21. Lopez
20. Arguello
19. Napoles
18. Emile
17. Kid Gavilan
16. Roy Jones
15. Hagler
14, Canzoneri
13. Pernell
12. Ross
11. Louis
10. Monzon
9. Chavez
8. SRL
7. Archie
6. Pep
5. Duran
4. Ezzard
3. Ali
2. Armstrong
1. SRR

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Dude. I respect your boxing knowledge because I consider myself fairly knowledgeable about boxing, but some of the names on that list even I have not heard of.

Ike Williams ? Who ?

Have you really seen enough of him fight to say he's deserves to be numbers 26 ? Have you seen Eder Jofre fight ? or Miguel Canto ?

With youtube now there is probably not a top fighter that we can’t see but sometimes people get misty-eyed about fighters because I judge on what I see and when I youtube the likes of Carlos Monzon. I’m sorry but to me, he don’t look anything special

The Micheal Spinks at number 24 is just outrageous, you have really overloaded the B.S meter in my brain with this one. Micheal Spinks ? but no Tyson ? Even though Tyson barley broke a sweat in beating him ?

Also how do you rank fighters ? Is just purely on who would beat who ? Or who had the best career ?

Because I can help but think that Roy Jones terrible loses towards the end of his career has to take away some of his shine, same with SRL. The likes of Hagler did not damage his legacy by carrying on too long and get beating by lesser guys.

I would say Hopkins deserves to be ranked MUCH higher, probably in the top ten.

I think Marciano at number 34 is too low

But you put Ezzard Charles at an extremely lofty position at number 4, even though Marciano beat Charles TWICE and beat Joe Louis (Yeah Louis was probably past it beat he was STILL Joe Louis and was still very good fighter) and Ezzard Charles did lose 25 of his 93 fights but Marciano remained undefeated for the rest of career, yet you think Ezzard Charles is 30 points better than Marciano ?

I can't argue with Duran being number five even though he did lose to fighterss below him (Hagler,
hears, SRL)

Ali at number 3 seems fine.

From what I have seen of Henry Armstrong, Mayweather beats him all day, that Mauling Ricky Hatton is style is made for Mayweather. I think Maywqeather schools him. I don’t see enough finesse in his work to trouble Mayweather but any fighter that can win world titles from feather to middle weights deserves respect but I think it’s that fact alone is the reason why people rank Armstrong so high

Sugar Ray Robinson at number 1 ?

No question. Even on youtube he still looks as bad as hell. He was one of the few past fighters to have the finesse and speed of a modern fighter. He lulled his fighters into a false sense of security but then could explode with a barrage of punches to take out a fighter

Finally No Jack Johnson ? No Sandy Sadler ? No Jack Dempsey ? No Gene Tunney ? No Mike Tyson ?

But you put in Micheal Spinks !!!!!!

I still can't believe that (lol)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CutMeMick

40. Carlos Zarate
39. Miguel Canto
38. Manuel Ortiz
37. Lou Ambers
36. Dick Tiger
35. Marciano
34. Saldivar
33. Wilfredo Gomez
32. Holyfield
31. Olivares
30. Hopkins
29. Harada
28. Carlos Ortiz
27. Ike Williams
26. Hearns
25. M. Spinks
24. Jofre
23. Sanchez
22. Lopez
21. Arguello
20. Napoles
19. Emile
18. Kid Gavilan
17. Roy Jones
16. Hagler
15, Canzoneri
14. Pernell
13. Ross
12. Louis
11. Monzon
10. Chavez
9. SRL
8. Archie
7. Pep
6. Duran
5. Ezzard
4. Ali
3. Armstrong
2. SRR
1. Bruno

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i know you know you made the mistake and i dont want to sound like the all time top 40 boxers police but ive made the correction for you :)

Can't help but notice the GLARING omission of 'The Ghetto Wizard' Benny Leonard

cant believe Maricano at 34 and Lennox Lewis not even in there.

I think Floyd's win over Canelo is going to look very good in the next few years.

I'm not a fan of Canelo, but I do recognize that he has skills, and has greatly improved in the last year or so. In the Trout fight alone, he showed good head movement and counter-punching ability.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CutMeMick

40. Oscar De La Hoya
39. Carlos Zarate
38. Miguel Canto
37. Manuel Ortiz
36. Lou Ambers
35. Dick Tiger
34. Marciano
33. Saldivar
32. Wilfredo Gomez
31. Holyfield
30. Olivares
29. Hopkins
28. Harada
27. Carlos Ortiz
26. Ike Williams
25. Hearns
24. M. Spinks
23. Jofre
22. Sanchez
21. Lopez
20. Arguello
19. Napoles
18. Emile
17. Kid Gavilan
16. Roy Jones
15. Hagler
14, Canzoneri
13. Pernell
12. Ross
11. Louis
10. Monzon
9. Chavez
8. SRL
7. Archie
6. Pep
5. Duran
4. Ezzard
3. Ali
2. Armstrong
1. SRR

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There's a bunch of white dudes and Hispanics listed above Floyd....you danged racist!

Well done for doing the list, at least the people who think Floyd is the greatest boxer ever can now be told to get their head out of his ass.

@denilson200 you do know that Spinks had a great career before he entered the heavyweight division?
You do know that Ezzard Charles beat Archie Moore and probably the best light heavy ever?
You do know that Armstrong won and held titles at featherweight, lightweight, welterweight at the same time?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Otley

no HOLMES......no TYSON..........oh dear....also no Chris Eubank....surely a mistake
Job Biscuit (Having butter scones in the garden)!!!!
eh eh!!!

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@Otley Holmes & Tyson I believe come in my top 50...

Eubank if I had to give you a number I would say top 100.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jimanuel Boogustus

Mick!!! Oh sheit! Welcome back. Hella happy to see you here...

:cool: since 'selfies' have really kicked off, I imagine you've been pretty busy ay?

I agree with not rating people who you haven't seen.... I tried looking for footage of Harry Greb recently and it was like looking for footage of Jesus!

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@Jimanuel Boogustus How's it go fella?
I like to think of myself as a innovator of the selfie.
I pretty much made them what they have become today. :cool:
Good to catch up with you too.
That I know of no fighting footage of Greb exists.

But I did find A LOT of footage of Sugar Ray Robinson at 147 (Welterweight) it was long believed that no actual fights of his at this weight existed on video. That is false I have seen him at his peak. Amazing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Spicoli

Don't call it a comeback!! Ha. Agreed on his area of rank though ATG list can at times be as subjective and broad as even a p4p list. Titles, defences, opposition, or just looking at a guy and knowing he's more skilled...etc. Its a big difficult ball of wax at times. I'd have a hard time putting Sr. in the top 10 but that's just me. Jones I still have not cracking 20 ish and put Lopez ahead although like you said he too may take strikes because of lack of comp or even moving up. But on skill and pure craft Lopez, on athleticism and phenomenal reflex Jones. I still think Mayweather will always regret his departure immediately after Hatton as the division seemed to pass him by and he indeed missed some big opportunities to cement greatness. I gotta crash. Welcome back chief!

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@Spicoli completely agree with you solely based on craft and ring generalship NO ONE comes close to Finito Lopez... Arguably the closest thing to a perfect boxer if one has ever existed.
I also agree on the bit of Floyd taking his mini vacation.

How did you find SRR footage like did you go to a archive or somthing thought that shit was gone in a fire or something right. Also do you have any on Tunney at all besides the Demsey fights. I really think that we should have a atg list done like old generation new one because they are so different now.

Also good to see you back i like to see Ice Britkid and Saddo come back but i think they are long gone. I would rank Holyfeild tad higher since there has never been a Heavyweight move up to hw and be considered a top 10 atg hw. Which is saying a lot when giving up 20 to 40 pounds in a fight is big deal.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by denilson200

Dude. I respect your boxing knowledge because I consider myself fairly knowledgeable about boxing, but some of the names on that list even I have not heard of.

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@denilson200 I don't consider myself pretty knowledgeable... I'm just a student of the game. I learn and feed off everyday reading and research. I pick up bits and pieces and ideas and do the work.

When I first saw the length of your reply I was honestly happy as I like debating and sharing details and info. that's how I learn and then I read your response... :(

Quote:

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Originally Posted by denilson200

Ike Williams ? Who ?

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If you don't know who Ike Williams is then I'm not sure I can go past this part of your response and answer the set of questions... :-\

Quote:

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Originally Posted by denilson200

I Have you really seen enough of him fight to say he's deserves to be numbers 26? Have you seen Eder Jofre fight ? or Miguel Canto ?

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I have a little over 6,000 fights saved in a hard drive that form part of my fight collection. I have exactly 8 complete Ike Williams fights. I have seen more then enough footage and have done the research to comfortably rank him at #26.
I have exactly 4 complete Eder Jofre fights. I have seen more then enough highlights and footage as well as done research to comfortably rank him.
I have exactly 13 complete Miguel Canto fights. I have seen more then enough footage and have done the research as well as become good friends with his son on Facebook to rank him.

As I mentioned I was really looking forward to replying to your entire comment but if you honestly don't know who Ike Williams is, it's best you learn about him. Then you can comeback and question me.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CutMeMick

Keep in mind I DON'T rank fighters whom I don't know enough of and or have not seen enough footage to judge them on. I simply refuse to rank fighters I've seen and know a lot of with fighters whom I've only read of. With that being said over time I've learned more and more about a lot of fighters whom 8 or 9 years ago I did not know much of and now today I can rank them.

Notable fighters I don't rank: Sam Langford, Harry Greb, Bob Fitzsimmons, Joe Gans, Benny Leonard & Mickey Walker among others.

---

Quote:

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

Can't help but notice the GLARING omission of 'The Ghetto Wizard' Benny Leonard

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@El Kabong see above... ;)
From my original post.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by brocktonblockbust

cant believe Maricano at 34 and Lennox Lewis not even in there.

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@brocktonblockbust while I do hold Lewis in high regards and he was the Undisputed HW Champ I just prefer Marcianos body of work overall... Maybe in years to come my opinion changes. Who knows??? Lennox is def. top 50 for me... Easy. Closer to 40 right behind Oscar on my list.

I am still wondering about SRR footage so you actually saw the legend which we are told about. Was it as good as people say was in embellished a tad or was it spot on. I have seen old SRR which was pretty good also were the fuck did you find footage just wondering is all.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by VG_Addict

I think Floyd's win over Canelo is going to look very good in the next few years.

I'm not a fan of Canelo, but I do recognize that he has skills, and has greatly improved in the last year or so. In the Trout fight alone, he showed good head movement and counter-punching ability.

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@VG_Addict I agree 100% here... People forget Canelo is only 24 now was 23 when he fought Floyd that kid has potentially a long illustrious future in the sport. Him facing Lara next tells you the type of fighter he is. 3 slick boxers back to back to back. What other elite/ superstar boxer does that? Kids got balls. Whether people like him or not. He's certainly showing more then JCC Jr.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

There's a bunch of white dudes and Hispanics listed above Floyd....you danged racist!

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@El Kabong you just love winding up the trolls don't you... lol. ;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Master

@denilson200 you do know that Spinks had a great career before he entered the heavyweight division?
You do know that Ezzard Charles beat Archie Moore and probably the best light heavy ever?
You do know that Armstrong won and held titles at featherweight, lightweight, welterweight at the same time?

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@Master how's it go fella?
From 1981 to 1988 Spinks fought ONLY in world title fights a total of 16 to be exact his record was 15-1 losing only to Tyson. His regin at LHW along with his opposition, skills and titles makes him something special. As if one mans career evolves based in 1 loss. Because I rank Spinks but not Tyson.
Duran lost to SRL, Hagler & Hearns yet he's fucken light years ahead in my list. I couldn't be bothered answering all his questions. At least if he came right and said "I haven't seen enough of Ike Williams and Jofre and Canto" but after I clearly stated in my original post

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CutMeMick

Keep in mind I DON'T rank fighters whom I don't know enough of and or have not seen enough footage to judge them on. I simply refuse to rank fighters I've seen and know a lot of with fighters whom I've only read of. With that being said over time I've learned more and more about a lot of fighters whom 8 or 9 years ago I did not know much of and now today I can rank them.

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He's still gonna question whether I have seen them fight and have seen enough of??? Go figure...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CutMeMick

Quote:

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

There's a bunch of white dudes and Hispanics listed above Floyd....you danged racist!

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@El Kabong you just love winding up the trolls don't you... lol. ;)

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I don't have to do shit to wind up the Floyd trolls. I'll say "Floyd is great" and they'll attack me just the same as if I said he was the worse than Mullet Boxer, it is beyond ridiculous.

To be Fair to Lyle the troll has been strong lately he been called a racist a lot and he does not know shit. I mean i got shit for saying Mayweather was top 15 saying that i put him to low and pac 20 whch is again i guess is to low for people. All and all you missed nothing great its been kinda shit since the fight.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mr140

How did you find SRR footage like did you go to a archive or somthing thought that shit was gone in a fire or something right. Also do you have any on Tunney at all besides the Demsey fights. I really think that we should have a atg list done like old generation new one because they are so different now.

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@Mr140 simply by looking... Everytime in my spare time I would search and contact people and ask until I finally came across it when a friend sent me a link.
To be honest boxers like Tunney, Dempsey, Jack Johnson while I respect them and rank them in their own realm again I just don't mess with them...
I have seperate lists. I have lists of fighters whom I've ONLY read about and have not seen enough footage if any at all. I'll post that one up next.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mr140

Also good to see you back i like to see Ice Britkid and Saddo come back but i think they are long gone. I would rank Holyfeild tad higher since there has never been a Heavyweight move up to hw and be considered a top 10 atg hw. Which is saying a lot when giving up 20 to 40 pounds in a fight is big deal.

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Thank you...
Ice Cold Boxing is BritKid as well as Saddo and Mr140 oh and zzzz.
But who cares about Ice Cold Boxing all his knowledge came from "Google" & "BoxRec"
don't tell him I told you that... ;)

Like i said before i think there should be a rankings for old timers 1960's and back and new timers 1970s and now kinda like hall of fame does it. I mean the way the game changed since the 60's even it hard to judge the way fights are fought the round numbers a lot has changed.

Lol well he is gone i guess it does not matter anymore anyhow good to see you hope you stay longer thaen a day i have to go to work. As for all the guys who have stayed do not let the trolls bother you i think Max is gone after the Chris fight master can not rest his head.