Old fighters' antics that wouldn't fly today
first off, let me state that i am a big advocate of old time fighters. i think that they are great. im not someone who thinks that new age training has made all of the current fights able to beat old fighters. i am also realistic and realize that all of the old ATG's wouldnt just sweep through every division these days. just like everybody, people have weaknesses and will have tough fights here or there. it doesnt matter who you are. (i use the term old pretty much relating anybody from the 80's or before).
with that said, i always feel that there are double standards. maybe its because we didnt live through certain fighters careers or if we did, we forgot about the problems they had and see them with our rose colored glasses. i know that current fighters get blamed for ducking, cheating, being too much of a drama queen, etc. so im trying to make a list of great fighters who did things that would infuriate fans now if they saw or heard about them.
sugar ray robinson- did you know that many times on fight night, he would demand more pay than was agreed to and would refuse to fight if those new demands werent met? can you imagine if floyd did that? i couldnt even imagine the backlash he would get from doing the same thing that the p4p king did.
sandy saddler- he was known as an extremely dirty fighter. that doesnt stop us from calling him an ATG though. he used his head, elbows, and back hands to win the fight. people complain about ward but saddler was on another level of dirty. if he fought today, people would be calling for a DQ in every fight.
roberto duran- this is mainly the no mas fight. he gained a ton of weight after the first fight with leonard then had to lose it all and quit during their second fight. yes i know that he "redeemed" himself by still having a good career after that, but that would be something that would always be brought up if we were talking about someone like bhop being a great fighter. there would be talks of "bhop is good but remember the time he quit?" nobody would ever let that go.
mainly what im getting at is that once a fighter is retired and years have passed, i think that we can start looking past what was wrong with their career and start focusing on their greatness instead. any other examples?
Re: Old fighters' antics that wouldn't fly today
Quote:
Originally Posted by
powerpuncher
sugar ray robinson- did you know that many times on fight night, he would demand more pay than was agreed to and would refuse to fight if those new demands werent met? can you imagine if floyd did that? i couldnt even imagine the backlash he would get from doing the same thing that the p4p king did.
It is called "know your value" . Prof boxing is about MAKING MONEY. Surprise?
Did you ever been in a ring? Why would anyone do it for free or low pay?
SRR was as great boxing business man as a fighter. He knew the game that if you do not value yourself you will be fucked by others. Check Mike TYson and Don King, and many many other examples
Quote:
Originally Posted by
powerpuncher
sandy saddler- he was known as an extremely dirty fighter. that doesnt stop us from calling him an ATG though. he used his head, elbows, and back hands to win the fight. people complain about ward but saddler was on another level of dirty. if he fought today, people would be calling for a DQ in every fight.
Well, bullcrap. A champ sets the rules. If you are famous and money bringer, the game will adopt its rules to you. See Mayweather.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
powerpuncher
roberto duran- this is mainly the no mas fight. he gained a ton of weight after the first fight with leonard then had to lose it all and quit during their second fight. yes i know that he "redeemed" himself by still having a good career after that, but that would be something that would always be brought up if we were talking about someone like bhop being a great fighter. there would be talks of "bhop is good but remember the time he quit?" nobody would ever let that go.
Partly agree here. Anyway, Duran is was and will be 10000000000000000% more exciting than BHOP.
Re: Old fighters' antics that wouldn't fly today
Quote:
Originally Posted by
NVSemin
Quote:
Originally Posted by
powerpuncher
sugar ray robinson- did you know that many times on fight night, he would demand more pay than was agreed to and would refuse to fight if those new demands werent met? can you imagine if floyd did that? i couldnt even imagine the backlash he would get from doing the same thing that the p4p king did.
It is called "know your value" . Prof boxing is about MAKING MONEY. Surprise?
Did you ever been in a ring? Why would anyone do it for free or low pay?
SRR was as great boxing business man as a fighter. He knew the game that if you do not value yourself you will be fucked by others. Check Mike TYson and Don King, and many many other examples
Quote:
Originally Posted by
powerpuncher
sandy saddler- he was known as an extremely dirty fighter. that doesnt stop us from calling him an ATG though. he used his head, elbows, and back hands to win the fight. people complain about ward but saddler was on another level of dirty. if he fought today, people would be calling for a DQ in every fight.
Well, bullcrap. A champ sets the rules. If you are famous and money bringer, the game will adopt its rules to you. See Mayweather.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
powerpuncher
roberto duran- this is mainly the no mas fight. he gained a ton of weight after the first fight with leonard then had to lose it all and quit during their second fight. yes i know that he "redeemed" himself by still having a good career after that, but that would be something that would always be brought up if we were talking about someone like bhop being a great fighter. there would be talks of "bhop is good but remember the time he quit?" nobody would ever let that go.
Partly agree here. Anyway, Duran is was and will be 10000000000000000% more exciting than BHOP.
More exciting than which version of Hop? I think people tend to forget how Hop fought during his early years and prime. His fight vs Tito was a masterpiece. Same with his fight vs Pavilik, and he was past his best in that one. Really, the only guys Hop spoils against are fast boxers, and that is because he is old.
Re: Old fighters' antics that wouldn't fly today
There for sure are double standards. Sugar Ray Robinson did everything Floyd Mayweather did and more, but he's a beloved figure.
I think the biggest thing that wouldn't fly today was the gross mismatches. People rant on ad naseum about how past fighters were REAL men because they fought over a hundred times, but when you look at the records you see that most of those fights were against guys that had no business in the ring with them. Guys with less than 10 fights, guys with losing records, fought when at a champion level.
I'm not saying guys deliberately chose shitty opposition, but it was a different game back then. There was no PPV, no endorsement deals, and the pay wasn't nearly as good so you had to fight often out of necessity, so you'd get in there with guys who had no chance for another pay day and I guess people were just happy to see their favourite fighter beat up on some guy.
Look at the shit Floyd got for choosing to fight Maidana, a 35-3 world title holder who has beaten and given hell to many world class opponents. Look at the shit Manny got for choosing to fight Algeri, an undefeated WW champion. Can you imagine if either guy's next fight was against a guy who was 1-6? Or against a club fighter who was 19-13, all against other club fighter opponents? It would never even be able to happen, no commission would allow it.
Re: Old fighters' antics that wouldn't fly today
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mikeeod
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Beanflicker
There for sure are double standards. Sugar Ray Robinson did everything Floyd Mayweather did and more, but he's a beloved figure.
I think the biggest thing that wouldn't fly today was the gross mismatches. People rant on ad naseum about how past fighters were REAL men because they fought over a hundred times, but when you look at the records you see that most of those fights were against guys that had no business in the ring with them. Guys with less than 10 fights, guys with losing records, fought when at a champion level.
I'm not saying guys deliberately chose shitty opposition, but it was a different game back then. There was no PPV, no endorsement deals, and the pay wasn't nearly as good so you had to fight often out of necessity, so you'd get in there with guys who had no chance for another pay day and I guess people were just happy to see their favourite fighter beat up on some guy.
Look at the shit Floyd got for choosing to fight Maidana, a 35-3 world title holder who has beaten and given hell to many world class opponents. Look at the shit Manny got for choosing to fight Algeri, an undefeated WW champion. Can you imagine if either guy's next fight was against a guy who was 1-6? Or against a club fighter who was 19-13, all against other club fighter opponents? It would never even be able to happen, no commission would allow it.
You hit a couple of points in your opening paragraph that kind of sum up my opinion. First, if you are fighting 6+ times a year then you really can't face murderous opposition every single time because there aren't that many elite opponents, you will get injured, you will burn out, and there won't be the build up or public demand for the really big fights. Second point, I'm ok with Manny taking on Algieri because Mannys last fight was a big win over an undefeated, P4P #3 in Bradley. I think it's robbery to put the Algeri fight on PPV, but people will buy it so I guess Arum knows what he is doing. My issue is when a guy fights sub par competition when there are enticing fights and bigger challenges out there for him.
Yea we wouldnt mind if Floyd and Manny were fighting bums a few times a tear for f all pay but the games changed. Getting 8 figure pay days should warrant tougher competition in my opinion but if they were to fight bums inbetween their 2 fights a year for 100k I wouldnt complain. Id welcome getting to see them fight more often and be good to give the "bum" an opportunity.
Re: Old fighters' antics that wouldn't fly today
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Greenbeanz
Most? I smell invention and the whiff of double standards. Maidana is hugely over rated and Floyd fought him twice already.
?? Maidana isnt that good. His best win is a blown up Broner who was poor against Carlos Molina and Emmanuel Taylor. He was beaten comfortably by Khan and Alexander and lost to Kotelnik. He is not that good and certainly not elite level. My only issue with Mayweather being regarded as a top 10 fighter of all time is lack of elite opposition. Leonard had Hearns, Haggler and Duran. Robinson had Armstrong. Part of that is due to the weaker division but if Mayweather really wanted the Pac fight he could have it. He can have whatever opposition he wants and in my opinion he takes the easier options.
Re: Old fighters' antics that wouldn't fly today
Quote:
Originally Posted by
NVSemin
Quote:
Originally Posted by
powerpuncher
sugar ray robinson- did you know that many times on fight night, he would demand more pay than was agreed to and would refuse to fight if those new demands werent met? can you imagine if floyd did that? i couldnt even imagine the backlash he would get from doing the same thing that the p4p king did.
It is called "know your value" . Prof boxing is about MAKING MONEY. Surprise?
Did you ever been in a ring? Why would anyone do it for free or low pay?
SRR was as great boxing business man as a fighter. He knew the game that if you do not value yourself you will be fucked by others. Check Mike TYson and Don King, and many many other examples
Quote:
Originally Posted by
powerpuncher
sandy saddler- he was known as an extremely dirty fighter. that doesnt stop us from calling him an ATG though. he used his head, elbows, and back hands to win the fight. people complain about ward but saddler was on another level of dirty. if he fought today, people would be calling for a DQ in every fight.
Well, bullcrap. A champ sets the rules. If you are famous and money bringer, the game will adopt its rules to you. See Mayweather.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
powerpuncher
roberto duran- this is mainly the no mas fight. he gained a ton of weight after the first fight with leonard then had to lose it all and quit during their second fight. yes i know that he "redeemed" himself by still having a good career after that, but that would be something that would always be brought up if we were talking about someone like bhop being a great fighter. there would be talks of "bhop is good but remember the time he quit?" nobody would ever let that go.
Partly agree here. Anyway, Duran is was and will be 10000000000000000% more exciting than BHOP.
I understand that Robinson knew his value but it still doesn't make it right to threaten to cancel a fight after you already agreed upon a price. Also, saddler wasn't hugely popular. He was good but he wasn't one of the top dogs in the sport at the time. Joe Louis and Henry Armstrong were the beloved fighters that everybody talked about. I'm sure fans hated saddler back then.
Re: Old fighters' antics that wouldn't fly today
Robinson wouldn't have to hold out to get more money if he was fighting today. If Mayweather can get $40 million a night, they'd just give Ray ALL the money upfront.
Re: Old fighters' antics that wouldn't fly today
Fritzie Zivick...everything the guy did was dirty.
Roberto Duran's thunderous uppercut to the balls vs Ken Buchannan wouldn't fly
Muhammad Ali's holding on the neck wouldn't fly and the rope-a-dope might not work as well because refs are very quick to stop fights these days
George Foreman's pushing would probably get a warning or two
Re: Old fighters' antics that wouldn't fly today
Cassius Clay
Would be 'ripped' apart by today's media.
Re: Old fighters' antics that wouldn't fly today
Chavez, the best p4p fighter at the time was fighting top fighters and some of the worst to pad up his record so he could achieve 100 wins. That was understandable.
Re: Old fighters' antics that wouldn't fly today
I suspect that 'drawing the colour line' might not be quite as acceptable today as it was ........
Re: Old fighters' antics that wouldn't fly today
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bill Paxtom
Cassius Clay
Would be 'ripped' apart by today's media.
Troll somewhere else troll!
I complain about Ali all the time but fucking hell you're ridiculous about it!
Re: Old fighters' antics that wouldn't fly today
Quote:
Originally Posted by
El Kabong
Fritzie Zivick...everything the guy did was dirty.
Roberto Duran's thunderous uppercut to the balls vs Ken Buchannan wouldn't fly
Muhammad Ali's holding on the neck wouldn't fly and the rope-a-dope might not work as well because refs are very quick to stop fights these days
George Foreman's pushing would probably get a warning or two
Good ones. Zivic was another super dirty fighter. I know that foreman excessively pushed. I'm not sure the refs would allow that now because it's impossible to subtly push somebody across the ring.
Re: Old fighters' antics that wouldn't fly today
Muhammad Ali
Holding and grabbing. Holding and grabbing. Holding and grabbing.
The man was a 'foul machine'.
Re: Old fighters' antics that wouldn't fly today
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bill Paxtom
Cassius Clay
Would be 'ripped' apart by today's media.
He was ripped apart by the media of the time, too. What's the difference?
Re: Old fighters' antics that wouldn't fly today
Rocky Marciano hit you everywhere he could, top of the head, behind the head, kidneys, groin, and he hit you with everything he has available .... Forearms, elbows, shoulders. I think he would have been DQ'd had he fought anywhere outside the States even then, never mind now.
Jack Dempsey also fought like he resented the sissy who invented the rules. He would hit you when your back was turned, while you weren't looking, after the bell, I the break. There is still ten rumour that he sometimes loaded his gloves.
Tough, tough guys.
Jack Johnson and Sam Langford started off as a kids, fighting Battle Royales. 15 or 20 (usually black) young kids would be put into a big ring and the last one standing was declared the winner.
Jem Mace, Tom Cribb, Daniel Mendoza and others fought without gloves, allowed throws and choke holds, wrestled and also fought until one man just couldn't stand up again
Boxing was much more short and brutal then, and was much more red in tooth and claw.
