Some thought on Tyson

Recently rewatched Tyson vs Thomas fight

Tyson was not doing very well from round 2 to 6. Rooney was yelling at him some garbage "you gotta throw punches with bad intentions", his behavior in the corner reminded me of Teddy Atlas in Moorers fights. Mike won the fight because the did not throw any uppercut till the right moment in the round 6.

After this fight and previous with Bonecrasher Smith, I started to realise that Rooney was overrated. He was definitely better than Atlas and many others in the gym, mittwork and general stuff, but not in boxing strategy. What Mike should have done is to hire Angelo Dundee.

80% of Tyson's career was with shit trainers that wanted to see Tyson do the square-on weeble-wabble punch by numbers system. It really resent this because Tyson had good upper-body movement and a reliable chin so really could have put his attributes to better use.

I always felt that fighting more like James Toney (early-mid noughties) would have much better suited Tyson - as a more side-on fighter, not trying to load up on so much.

D'Mato and Rooney got Tyson to reach his potential. I don't think Dundee could have offered him much different...I mean Angie worked with Carmen Basillio and he was kind of a pressure fighter but I just don't see Angie having much more to offer Tyson than Cus and Rooney did. Would Tyson have done well under Atlas? Who knows. Kevin Rooney obviously hasn't found the right guy to recapture the magic he had with Tyson. I think later on in his career Tyson just needed to be in the gym more and not have a trainer who would accept his not showing up. Since he was around at the time I do wonder why Eddie Futch was never considered for Tyson? Manny Steward also may have helped. Both of those guys were certainly better than Aaron Snowell :rolleyes:

Angelo, Eddie and Manny didn't have the patience for tysons nonsense outside the ring. Even Cus, kevin and others went through their growing pains with tyson as pubicly known. You have to realize that Tyson was brought up on the Cus Peek a boo /number system. They kept that in the fold because it was a point of reference. Theoretically if the skills were sharp and the training was done, all you had to do was nurse him mentally/emotionally through the fight. To abandon that system and try to remake tyson all over again would have just unmade Tyson. Tyson was a student of the game but look at the latter part of his career where he slacked off, years removed from all of that and every cook that came through the kitchen was trying to add their own spice to the pot. Roach, Snowell, Brooks, Muhammed, Fenech. Tyson stopped moving his head and only moved his hands, He didnt get as low and he used to, he telegraphed his punches, he got frustrated easier by guys like buster mathis junior.

That system, Cus's presence, Rooneys voice, Jacobs backing.. all of it was a perfect storm that came together and kept mike and his confidence whole. Piece by piece they were removed and it stripped him mentally back down to that scared kid he was before he was robbing and breaking into houses in Brooklyn.

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Originally Posted by NVSemin

Recently rewatched Tyson vs Thomas fight

Tyson was not doing very well from round 2 to 6. Rooney was yelling at him some garbage "you gotta throw punches with bad intentions", his behavior in the corner reminded me of Teddy Atlas in Moorers fights. Mike won the fight because the did not throw any uppercut till the right moment in the round 6.

After this fight and previous with Bonecrasher Smith, I started to realise that Rooney was overrated. He was definitely better than Atlas and many others in the gym, mittwork and general stuff, but not in boxing strategy. What Mike should have done is to hire Angelo Dundee.

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Tyson = overrated he was a bully , hit him back and he lost every fight he was in.

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Originally Posted by Dark Lord Al

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Originally Posted by NVSemin

Recently rewatched Tyson vs Thomas fight

Tyson was not doing very well from round 2 to 6. Rooney was yelling at him some garbage "you gotta throw punches with bad intentions", his behavior in the corner reminded me of Teddy Atlas in Moorers fights. Mike won the fight because the did not throw any uppercut till the right moment in the round 6.

After this fight and previous with Bonecrasher Smith, I started to realise that Rooney was overrated. He was definitely better than Atlas and many others in the gym, mittwork and general stuff, but not in boxing strategy. What Mike should have done is to hire Angelo Dundee.

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Tyson = overrated he was a bully , hit him back and he lost every fight he was in.

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You know he was better than that.

Tyson had an awesome first round against Pinklon Thomas, he absolutely battered him.

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Originally Posted by Jimanuel Boogustus

80% of Tyson's career was with shit trainers that wanted to see Tyson do the square-on weeble-wabble punch by numbers system. It really resent this because Tyson had good upper-body movement and a reliable chin so really could have put his attributes to better use.

I always felt that fighting more like James Toney (early-mid noughties) would have much better suited Tyson - as a more side-on fighter, not trying to load up on so much.

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But tyson had a short reach and was the smallest heavyweight so im not sure how that toney style would have worked for him.

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Originally Posted by Dark Lord Al

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Originally Posted by NVSemin

Recently rewatched Tyson vs Thomas fight

Tyson was not doing very well from round 2 to 6. Rooney was yelling at him some garbage "you gotta throw punches with bad intentions", his behavior in the corner reminded me of Teddy Atlas in Moorers fights. Mike won the fight because the did not throw any uppercut till the right moment in the round 6.

After this fight and previous with Bonecrasher Smith, I started to realise that Rooney was overrated. He was definitely better than Atlas and many others in the gym, mittwork and general stuff, but not in boxing strategy. What Mike should have done is to hire Angelo Dundee.

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Tyson = overrated he was a bully , hit him back and he lost every fight he was in.

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Every loss tyson had was way past his prime.

We have to look at pre douglas even though he had douglas down for ten seconds.

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Originally Posted by imp

But tyson had a short reach and was the smallest heavyweight so im not sure how that toney style would have worked for him.

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Well I think as a shorter fighter making your opponent reach for you and you roll and counter DOES work but given Tyson's mentality you have to wonder if he would be patient enough to wait for that picture perfect shot. I think being a pure counter puncher is the exact opposite to being a pressure fighter which is what Tyson was trained to do for his entire career.

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Originally Posted by imp

Every loss tyson had was way past his prime.

We have to look at pre douglas even though he had douglas down for ten seconds.

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.....:rolleyes:


And look at who he fought at that point in his career, a bunch of cling-ons from Larry Holmes' era

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

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Originally Posted by imp

Every loss tyson had was way past his prime.

We have to look at pre douglas even though he had douglas down for ten seconds.

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.....:rolleyes:


And look at who he fought at that point in his career, a bunch of cling-ons from Larry Holmes' era

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For the record your honour. Tucker and Biggs were undefeated fighters not from Holmes era.

Tyson simply wouldn't have been Tyson minus Cus and Rooney. He was in a decent test and made adjustments, sounds like it worked itself out ??? Fighting style wise like a Toney just wouldn't have worked cause that was as much icey mental awareness and a calm storm for James as it was shoulder roll and killer 6' inch inside counters. Tysons mentality was not some unshakable foundation.

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Originally Posted by Master

For the record your honour. Tucker and Biggs were undefeated fighters not from Holmes era.

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So 2 decent heavyweights

I do wonder about a young Tyson being groomed for the heavyweight division by Eddie Futch though. I don't know if that would weaken the mentality of Tyson or if he would be more calm and tougher psychologically.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3t9FNzw11M

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

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Originally Posted by Master

For the record your honour. Tucker and Biggs were undefeated fighters not from Holmes era.

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So 2 decent heavyweights

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Pinklon was decent and gave a good effort, Berbick fought the wrong fight, Bonecrusher tried hugging, Spinks got scared, Tubbs tried his best, Bruno was limited, Williams got cocky.

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

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Originally Posted by imp

Every loss tyson had was way past his prime.

We have to look at pre douglas even though he had douglas down for ten seconds.

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.....:rolleyes:


And look at who he fought at that point in his career, a bunch of cling-ons from Larry Holmes' era

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Talking of cling-ons..hows wlad?

Is his next fight in wwe this time?

Pot kettle black stones glass houses.

Wlad fought a few cling-ons from the Lewis era no doubt, BUT he's fought far more guys that Lewis didn't fight and guys who have came up during Wlad's title reign because his title run has lasted that long. All the guys Wlad has fought that Lennox fought he's beaten them easily and typically early in his career: Botha, Mercer, Jackson, the latest one was Rahman who was never in the fight.

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

Wlad fought a few cling-ons from the Lewis era no doubt, BUT he's fought far more guys that Lewis didn't fight and guys who have came up during Wlad's title reign because his title run has lasted that long. All the guys Wlad has fought that Lennox fought he's beaten them easily and typically early in his career: Botha, Mercer, Jackson, the latest one was Rahman who was never in the fight.

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Some of these fighters did not belong in the ring with Wlad - Rahman had no legs and Mercer had no resistance.

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

D'Mato and Rooney got Tyson to reach his potential. I don't think Dundee could have offered him much different...I mean Angie worked with Carmen Basillio and he was kind of a pressure fighter but I just don't see Angie having much more to offer Tyson than Cus and Rooney did. Would Tyson have done well under Atlas? Who knows. Kevin Rooney obviously hasn't found the right guy to recapture the magic he had with Tyson. I think later on in his career Tyson just needed to be in the gym more and not have a trainer who would accept his not showing up. Since he was around at the time I do wonder why Eddie Futch was never considered for Tyson? Manny Steward also may have helped. Both of those guys were certainly better than Aaron Snowell :rolleyes:

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I meant hire Dundee at that point of his career. I believe after title fights he grew over Rooney, Rooney was OK when he was instilling Cus's principles, in mittowork, general conditioning, but Rooney got not OK when he was teaching Mike based on his experience.

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Originally Posted by Master

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Originally Posted by Dark Lord Al

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Originally Posted by NVSemin

Recently rewatched Tyson vs Thomas fight

Tyson was not doing very well from round 2 to 6. Rooney was yelling at him some garbage "you gotta throw punches with bad intentions", his behavior in the corner reminded me of Teddy Atlas in Moorers fights. Mike won the fight because the did not throw any uppercut till the right moment in the round 6.

After this fight and previous with Bonecrasher Smith, I started to realise that Rooney was overrated. He was definitely better than Atlas and many others in the gym, mittwork and general stuff, but not in boxing strategy. What Mike should have done is to hire Angelo Dundee.

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Tyson = overrated he was a bully , hit him back and he lost every fight he was in.

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Tyson had an awesome first round against Pinklon Thomas, he absolutely battered him.

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It was basically THomas decision to stay squared with Tyson and trade punches.

Nah, Mitch Green hit the prime Tyson quite a bit.
6'5", 29 year old Mitch Green didn't fight scared, and he went the full 10 rd distance with the prime Tyson; Tyson won the Title 6 months after the Mitch Green fight.
They were both contenders at the time: Green with only one loss 9 months earlier to Trevor Berbick, who Tyson would defeat 6 months later.
Green went toe-to-toe quite a bit in that fight, Tyson didn't cave in over it.
It's too bad they didn't rematch down the line.

I don't think Angelo Dundee in his corner would've helped Tyson very much regarding strategy.
He was more of a motivational-speaker type rather than a great strategist.

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Originally Posted by bradlee180

I don't think Angelo Dundee in his corner would've helped Tyson very much regarding strategy.
He was more of a motivational-speaker type rather than a great strategist.

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My point is not the help, but harm. Dundee presence would not harm him, unlike Rooney

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

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Originally Posted by Master

For the record your honour. Tucker and Biggs were undefeated fighters not from Holmes era.

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So 2 decent heavyweights

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And neither was a big hitter.

Tyson was as good as he was ever going to be with Rooney. He reached his maximum potential IMO.

The style they had for him was perfect. Teach a tortured soul with great power and athleticism how to seek and destroy.

Worked well enough to strike fear into the hearts of other animals who seemingly feared nothing.

Agreed Hulk. If you could hypothetically conjure up some prime Tyson who wasn't an emotional wreck or whatever, then sure other people could have done more with that raw ability, but as things were he was very lucky to have people who cared and groomed him to begin with. He was going to peak very young no matter what, and obviously needed to be harnessed pretty much.

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Originally Posted by imp

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Originally Posted by Jimanuel Boogustus

80% of Tyson's career was with shit trainers that wanted to see Tyson do the square-on weeble-wabble punch by numbers system. It really resent this because Tyson had good upper-body movement and a reliable chin so really could have put his attributes to better use.

I always felt that fighting more like James Toney (early-mid noughties) would have much better suited Tyson - as a more side-on fighter, not trying to load up on so much.

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But tyson had a short reach and was the smallest heavyweight so im not sure how that toney style would have worked for him.

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James Toney = 5ft 9/ 72 ins reach
Mike Tyson = 5ft 11/ 71 ins reach

No difference IMO

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Originally Posted by Master

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Originally Posted by El Kabong

Wlad fought a few cling-ons from the Lewis era no doubt, BUT he's fought far more guys that Lewis didn't fight and guys who have came up during Wlad's title reign because his title run has lasted that long. All the guys Wlad has fought that Lennox fought he's beaten them easily and typically early in his career: Botha, Mercer, Jackson, the latest one was Rahman who was never in the fight.

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Some of these fighters did not belong in the ring with Wlad - Rahman had no legs and Mercer had no resistance.

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Well that fight was the first anyone found out about it. Wlad was the very first fighter to knock Ray down with a punch to the head and the very first to stop Ray. Old or not that means something when a fighter does that.

Holyfield first did a little something to Rays punch resistance in the 8th round courtesy of two left hooks ;D

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Originally Posted by NVSemin

Recently rewatched Tyson vs Thomas fight

Tyson was not doing very well from round 2 to 6. Rooney was yelling at him some garbage "you gotta throw punches with bad intentions", his behavior in the corner reminded me of Teddy Atlas in Moorers fights. Mike won the fight because the did not throw any uppercut till the right moment in the round 6.

After this fight and previous with Bonecrasher Smith, I started to realise that Rooney was overrated. He was definitely better than Atlas and many others in the gym, mittwork and general stuff, but not in boxing strategy. What Mike should have done is to hire Angelo Dundee.

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Agree completely. Rooney was familiarity. Look at the old codger http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/a...psf59dd1d6.gif

The seventy year old that knocks you out when you get lippy. D'amato's use of his number system was tailor made for that style of fighting. Tysons mastery of the code was jaw dropping;D

He was simply not the same fighter after Cus passed. Thomas actually laid the blueprint on how to fight Tyson with or without Cus but not having Cus in the corner for the first he found himself in trouble must have been tough.

@Spicoli Holyfield put Ray down with a body shot if I remember correctly. Still the man had an iron chin and had never been KO'd when Wlad fought him. With Wlad being a young heavyweight at the time it was a good solid test for him no shame in that fight. Now the Rahman fight...even I didn't want that one to happen but Hasim had earned a shot at Vitali who was out injured/retired at the time and Wlad gave him the fight.

Kevin Rooney was a decent enough trainer, I think he handled Tyson's success about as well as Tyson did. He was a young trainer, handed the reigns by Cus after Tyson's fallout with Atlas and with that meteoric rise to the top and domination of the division Rooney was kind of at the mercy of the situation as the authority figure Cus had passed away. You look at some top trainers you can see loads of GREAT fighters they've worked with...it's not that way for Rooney he's best known for Tyson, he worked a little with Paz, a little with Mormeck, had some ok success with Lenord Pierre Anasta until he ran up on John Duddy. Rooney also had some success with a heavyweight for a while Thomas Hayes, from Chicago who was 5'11 with a 72" reach (sound familiar?). But he's never recaptured the magic he had with Tyson.....but then again you look at Cus and he had a long career but with only a few successful very fighters Patterson, Torres, Tyson.

I think the peek-a-boo style works to an extent, but you're burning daylight from the start with that style. It's a hyper aggressive pressure fighter style.

I think everyone would welcome Kevin Rooney getting another fighter to the top of the sport again and I hope he's teaching the style he learned from Cus to a new generation so that style can stick around because when it works it REALLY works (though it has it's limits). Some people had high hopes for Teddy Atlas training Povetkin as well.

It's a shame these guys can't find the talent they need to gain access to.


I also think that Amateur boxing is really being hurt because professional trainers can't work with those kids AND have pro fighters at the same time (or some bullshit like that). I believe Rooney and/or Atlas would do well by boxing to help out the youth especially given the style they teach.


Also, ever wonder how Rooney would have done with any other heavyweight? Or how Tyson would have done with Atlas in the pro ranks?

Rooney had drink issues and never did it with any other fighter subsequently.

Atlas is the type of trainer that the boxer would want to slap because he seems to play to the TV screen and try and make it like rocky movie.

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Originally Posted by Master

Rooney had drink issues and never did it with any other fighter subsequently.

Atlas is the type of trainer that the boxer would want to slap because he seems to play to the TV screen and try and make it like rocky movie.

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Both true...but some trainers will be that way, and some won't.

I think Rooney saw his dream crash and had trouble handling it when Tyson left him. I think Atlas is just built the way where he's urging intensity from a fighter and it makes him steal some spotlight.

Head shots Lyle, rang his bell off the ropes via right then caught him hooks in close. Dude ;D Wlad was a defending champion and Mercer was a ghost, years removed from warring with Lewis and Holy. But ok ok ;D

It's a weird contrast Teddy and Rooney. Rooney always struck me as calm, comfortable in the corner and self. Teddy does indeed let his passion overwhelm his brain and subsequent message, theatrical but never looked like his heart wasn't in it.

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Originally Posted by Spicoli

Head shots Lyle, rang his bell off the ropes via right then caught him hooks in close. Dude ;D Wlad was a defending champion and Mercer was a ghost, years removed from warring with Lewis and Holy. But ok ok ;D

It's a weird contrast Teddy and Rooney. Rooney always struck me as calm, comfortable in the corner and self. Teddy does indeed let his passion overwhelm his brain and subsequent message, theatrical but never looked like his heart wasn't in it.

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Wlad was 26, Mercer was 40-41 I think and Ray was working on his comeback after a layoff. After the "loss" to Lewis, Mercer was 7(6 KO's)-0-0 going in to the fight. But whatever every top fighter fights an old dude eventually.


Rooney and Atlas have just vanished from the training scene...it's ridiculous. Manny Steward always had a good stable of fighters, Freddy Roach always has a good stable of fighters. How did those guys just disappear from the scene like that?

Reducing Tysons style to "peak a boo" is ridiculous. It was much more then that. It may have turned into that a year or so after Cus left and Mike fell in love with his power and celebrity but its what developed from it that made Tyson special.

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Originally Posted by Hulk

Tyson was as good as he was ever going to be with Rooney. He reached his maximum potential IMO.

The style they had for him was perfect. Teach a tortured soul with great power and athleticism how to seek and destroy.

Worked well enough to strike fear into the hearts of other animals who seemingly feared nothing.

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Yep and the crazy man persona wasn't stemmed, it was what it was and it was great to watch while it lasted.
Im happy with the outcome for Mike too these days he seems at peace with it all.

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

Reducing Tysons style to "peak a boo" is ridiculous. It was much more then that. It may have turned into that a year or so after Cus left and Mike fell in love with his power and celebrity but its what developed from it that made Tyson special.

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I agree makes it sound all too easy. It takes great tenacity to move in close under fire and to hunt down openings like that beneath the swings grapples and hooks, it isnt to be sneered at. Some say this and that about some of the opposition throughout the ages as well but at any one time whats available is the hardest hitting men in the world with balls enough to seek out the others.

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

Reducing Tysons style to "peak a boo" is ridiculous. It was much more then that. It may have turned into that a year or so after Cus left and Mike fell in love with his power and celebrity but its what developed from it that made Tyson special.

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I certainly didn't mean to do that. Tyson is the perfection of the style nonstop head movement, quick hands, great solid base, good footwork, good chin, and of course the big power.

He devolved into a guy looking for one big punch but that was also due to his age. It's a very tough style to keep up because it uses so much energy