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Is a boxers prime when you feel he takes a loss or an excuse when he gets beaten by someone you dont like?
We all have our peak moments.
Who had the longest prime moment or what fighters have achieved greatness with a 2nd prime (hopkins)
Was tyson in his prime pre prison?..or how would you define prime in a fighter.?
Da Fuq? ;DQuote:
Originally Posted by imp
If I had to describe a fighters prime I'd go along with the elevator (lift) analogy.
Fighters like Hopkins, Calzaghe, Floyd. They can elongate their prime by masking their physical decline using their experiennce/savvy.
It's also no surprise that the three guys I've mentioned are generally in shape all of the time.
It's impossible to quantify, some guys peak early, some late, some never at all, it's unique to each guy.
But yeah, for practical purposes it seems to be just a concept for fans to excuse a loss suffered by a fighter they like, or shit on a win achieved by a fighter they hate.
George Foreman had a creepy long 2nd prime. Un-human.
this sums it up for me, coz if he wasnt in his prime he takers a loss but wouldnt make excuses when he was fighting fighters that were actually in their prime but i wouldnt be saying it if i liked them, but if i didnt like them it might be different, you know what i meanQuote:
Originally Posted by imp
prime is RJJ Junior. prime is Marvin Haggler. That's prime dog.
Prime is hard to define because a lot of guys in their "prime" are fighting guys that aren't. They appear at the top of their game and are getting good results, then they come across a guy who is also in his prime or unknowlingly close to it and boom they lose and are past their prime. Boxing is a funny sport/business.
When was prince naz NOT in his prime?
When he lost to barrera?
Amir khan must be in his 2nd prime now and possibly his last.
you sound like graham taylorQuote:
Originally Posted by imp
Generally speaking prime is between 18 and 25 give or take a couple of years but of course there are exceptions especially in this sport and in some sports like marathon river paddling, men in there fifties and even sixties seem to dominate.
I'd say Hop peaked later in life but he started late and as @Memphis pointed out, his ring smarts allowed him to adapt and beat much younger guys. When was Moores prime? Guy fought 160 times before he got a title shot at age 39. Was his prime the struggling years or when everyone knew his name? We know he was nowhere near it in the Marciano fight even though he had beat Maxim twice about a year prior just as we know Hop was done on Saturday. When great boxers fall off the top of the food chain its usually pretty obvious.
How about Oscar? Was his prime 135 or 147. Most people will say 47 but I'm not so sure. And Morales? I'd say it was as far back as 122 and early 126. Benitez? Was it the 25 fights in one year he made to get his title shot or the year or two prior to the Leonard fight?
At age 28 Armstrong knocked out 27 straight opponents in one year to get the featherweight championship. But all of a sudden at age 33 he caved and was carried by Robinson. Close watchers of the day saw it coming when he was ko'd by Zivic and then out boxed by Rueben Shank about a year earlier. Oh he got even with Zivic but Zivic lost more fights then any champion in history. When was his prime.
Boxers who risk and even some that don't, lose in their prime. Upsets happen all the time. @Beanflicker is right. You almost have to look at it on a fighter by fighter basis. The physical adopted norms of say 18 to 28 is meant to be a range. We are living longer with better medical care etc etc.
Tough one to nail down but when a top fighter is no longer in it, its pretty clear. For example: Floyd Mayweather is not in his prime.
Naz is a difficult one to call. His experience/ring smarts elevator was running in reverse, he got more and more dumb as he went on.
I guess he's a good example of there being no perfect formula to apply to this question. Taking biases out of the equation you could see he was no longer interested at the tail end of his career. That just happened to coincide with running into an all time great.
Fighters should have primes which should be their physical and mental best where they could not fight better and remain unbeaten JCC Superstar, Tyson or Rocky.
During that period they should not lose but they can like Leonard, Hearns or Khan. If they do they can still come back and win again.
Fighters primes can be young Benitez, Vargas and Tyson or older Lewis or Wlad.
Fighters to achieve success after their primes are Hopkins and Foreman which have been through experience, guile, power and luck.
Bowe had a short peak Joe Louis had a long one.
i think that there could be several primes:
teorical prime: when the body+mind makes the boxer be at its best IF he actually trains in the most perfect way and in addition he is completely mentalized, it might be at 27 to 30 years old or something like that.. In other words when the body and mind have the most power to give to the boxer if he does his job like he should (it doesn't depend even on PEDs.
practical prime: when the boxer actually is at it's best. In real life very variable It might be even at 40 or 20 or whatever other ages. In other words when the boxer actually used the body and mind (if he used PEDs he might even reach it, just might.
false fan's boxer prime: when he beat the most recognized boxer even though the most famous boxer is extremely shot (totally distorted way to look at 2 boxers like 2 names without ages
I prefer the teorical prime, because it looks more like a responsibility of the boxer with no excuses
I think prime is simply a display of consistency in execution with consideration to level of competition. Tested and rebounding to display the same, be it from a loss or a perceived loss. Being young and knocking out cans is not a prime. Possibly physical but def not mental prime and condition as you've never had to expand and adapt. Its definitely different for each fighter as far as experience, life style and the fact we are all living to be older. A lot of young guys come out now with massive 'push' and are force fed, we have a microwave mentality and I seriously think a stable foundation is sacrificed now in the name of expected stardom and many a decent fighter short change themselves in the long run. Prime should be an investment.
Another good way of looking at things is if a 35 year old fighter would beat a 25 year old version of himself.
How about Wlad...would the wlad of today beat a 30 year old version.
Sometimes a fighter can still be in their prime but if they have won everything and beaten everyone the mental side overshadows the prime.
Master, Iaminut & Spiccoli best define it for me. We just vary on the age.
A man's prime IMO is age 25-35
There has to be room for rookie years (20-25).
By age 25, your mind, & body have peaked.
The next question is how long does it last.
Depends for boxers on 2 things.
1 Fight style
2. Life style.
Punchers & Brawlers Fraziers, Tysons , Tuas: bangers usually have shorter primes, they take more poundings.
Boxers- counterpunchers last longer because they take less punishment.
Some fighters also lessen their prime by doing too much sparring & training.
Wether it be basketball, football or baseball most athletes are done by 40. History bares witness.
Hop & PBF don't drink and party in that sense, so that lenghtens a prime to as long as 40. & Forman retired for years, giving his body rest, so he never really had a prime- He was fat when he came back & knew who to fight and not too. And since power is the last thing to leave a boxer, Forman was good to go at 40 plus. Good thing Holyfield wasn't a muderous puncher- he could've hurt George.
Current Wlad would beat younger wlad even if younger Wlad could do more physically ie be stronger, faster, recover quicker because older Wlad has experience on his side and he would use that to beat a raw young Wlad who did not know how to protect his vulnerable chin. The same would go for older Lennox Lewis that beat Holyfield to the one that lost to McCall.Quote:
Originally Posted by imp
Interesting to pit a fighter against himself at a different stage in their life.Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterCurrent Wlad would beat younger wlad even if younger Wlad could do more physically ie be stronger, faster, recover quicker because older Wlad has experience on his side and he would use that to beat a raw young Wlad who did not know how to protect his vulnerable chin. The same would go for older Lennox Lewis that beat Holyfield to the one that lost to McCall.Quote:
Originally Posted by imp
A seasoned Lewis would've killed the one that fought Frank Bruno- He didn't have the "master" teacher of the jab for tall fighters (M.Steward). He was very raw back then.
If we pit all the modern day fighters against themselves 5 years younger which one will loose to their younger self?!
Experience plays a big part in the older prime version beating the younger prime version.
I think younger Foreman that beat Frazier smashes old Foreman that beat MoorerQuote:
Originally Posted by imp
1988 Tyson makes 1998 Tyson quit...like a bitch.Quote:
Originally Posted by imp
early 90's Michael Moorer vs late 90's Moorer (double KO!):lickish:
I hate Moorer for losing to George, he threw that fight away. That chin was made in china.Quote:
Originally Posted by SlimTrae1988 Tyson makes 1998 Tyson quit...like a bitch.Quote:
Originally Posted by imp
early 90's Michael Moorer vs late 90's Moorer (double KO!):lickish:
Its true.
Older tyson will never beat a younger tyson.
After defeating Berbick and becoming the youngest heavyweight champion of the world:Quote:
Originally Posted by imp
“This is the moment I waited for all my life since I started boxing…Berbick was very strong…I never expected him to be as strong as me…every punch I threw with bad intentions to a vital area…I aimed for his ear…I wanted to bust his eardrum…Every punch had bad intentions…My record will last for immortality, it’ll never be broken…I want to live forever…I refuse to lose…I would have had to be carried out dead to lose…I was coming to destroy and win the Heavyweight Championship of the World, which I done…I’d like to dedicate my fight to my great guardian, Cus D’Amato. I’m sure he’s up there and he’s looking down and he’s talking to all the great fighters and he’s saying his boy did it…I thought he was a crazy white dude…he was a genius…everything he said would happen happened.”