I was just reading a piece about Barrera (one of my favourite fighters ever). What are the victories that make him an all-time great? (5 will do)
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I was just reading a piece about Barrera (one of my favourite fighters ever). What are the victories that make him an all-time great? (5 will do)
Morales x2
Naz
McKinney
Ayala
I see what you did there @Fenster.
Excellent point
The McKinney fight was a war! First Boxing After Dark card if I remember correctly. Marcos was a beast n Kennedy fought his heart out. I knew Barrera would be great when I saw that fight, although I never expected him to become so versatile n box so well behind his jab. I guess his loss to Junior Jones had that affect though.... The Johnny Tapia win was pretty good too, although I think Mast nailed his biggest wins. It wasn't just who he beat though, but how he beat them. Guy is an easy ATG.
I thought the McKinney fight would finish Barrera. It is amazing that he got even better and being versatile helped.
I enjoyed his fights with Ivy Jones.
I was reading an interview Barrera gave about who he considered was his best win. I thought it was obviously Morales - a fellow all-time great. He doesn't think so. Then I was looking at his opposition.
McKinney was a great fight/win. But he got beat twice by Vuyani Bungu. So you can't call him great.
Tapia is a legend but can he be regarded as great? He fought Barrera coming off the "robbery of the year" against Manuel Medina. Ayala beat him twice.
Junior Jones ironed Barrera out and did him again in the rematch. He can't be great. Paul Ingle smashed him to bits.
Kevin Kelley had several losses, to guys you wouldn't call "great," by time Barrera fought him.
Apart from Morales... Barrera doesn't have a single win against a "great" fighter in their prime. Is he overrated?
Great point.Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeeod
I'd put him into great for his 12th round Naz head into the ringpost
Aside from that it's got to be Morales imo - although Naz I genuinely think would have troubled almost anyone and Barrera did him about 9-3 - very very impressive
I wanted to put Naz first because of Naz's ranking, but since Naz walked away that fight imo was more of MAB exposing a fighter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
:DQuote:
Originally Posted by IamInuit
Passive aggressiveness aside though, I only asked Facster to tell me what he thought Hamed's single best win was, when Facster failed to chose one due to there being 'too many' (his words) to choose from did I cut him some slack and suggest 5.
5 is an arbitrary number, I only asked for one and I'm still waiting for it. :)
With Barrera it's an easy pick... Morales.
Not only was Morales a(nother) undefeated, two weight champion for Barrera to beat, he was able to follow up his first loss to MaB by reclaiming his belt and then winning and defending the WBC title in a third weight class, he then followed up his second loss to MaB by beating Manny Pacquaio and 6 years later even won a title in a 4th weight class, long after most would write him off.
Sure (like everybody else at the top) Morales dispatched of the likes of Kevin Kelly, but it's how Morales fought on and continued to achieve even after losing to MaB that put him on that next tier. It's not just wins, it's how defeat is followed.
The one thing Morales, Marquez, Barrera, Marquez and Pac have in common is that they all fought and beat at least one (not five, lol) person from that list, for me that's a criteria you need to meet before we even consider debating you the best of that era.
Beating guys a level below that, but in impressive fashion helps, but it's not enough alone. What if RJJ didn't have a W over Hopkins and Toney? Would he still be seen as a great middle-super middle by as many?
He was matched solid from the jump once he made debut in states and while the biggest names don't always equate to best wins he was smacking around a run of solid guys leading to McKinney war. His ability to adjust and boxing was their Jones rematch well before it shocked folks with Naz. The Maurin fight put me to sleep. The Cook fight was sensational. Dudes a legend, simple as. He broke you down
Marco Antonio Barrera was a delightful fighter who has given me hours of exquisite joy from his manly tussles. I would say his 5 biggest wins are Morales, Morales again, Hamed, McKinney and Ayala. There appears to be a pattern in picking these wins judging by previous posts in this thread. Barrera has many wins over solid competition, but the really big ones are Morales and Naz. It's fair to say that Barrera had trouble with some fighters, but on the whole asides from those few (who he also re-matched) he was unlucky to lose against Marquez and Khan.
What do you offer?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenster
Hold up.Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamGB:DQuote:
Originally Posted by IamInuit
Passive aggressiveness aside though, I only asked Facster to tell me what he thought Hamed's single best win was, when Facster failed to chose one due to there being 'too many' (his words) to choose from did I cut him some slack and suggest 5.
5 is an arbitrary number, I only asked for one and I'm still waiting for it. :)
With Barrera it's an easy pick... Morales.
Not only was Morales a(nother) undefeated, two weight champion for Barrera to beat, he was able to follow up his first loss to MaB by reclaiming his belt and then winning and defending the WBC title in a third weight class, he then followed up his second loss to MaB by beating Manny Pacquaio and 6 years later even won a title in a 4th weight class, long after most would write him off.
Sure (like everybody else at the top) Morales dispatched of the likes of Kevin Kelly, but it's how Morales fought on and continued to achieve even after losing to MaB that put him on that next tier. It's not just wins, it's how defeat is followed.
The one thing Morales, Marquez, Barrera, Marquez and Pac have in common is that they all fought and beat at least one (not five, lol) person from that list, for me that's a criteria you need to meet before we even consider debating you the best of that era.
Beating guys a level below that, but in impressive fashion helps, but it's not enough alone. What if RJJ didn't have a W over Hopkins and Toney? Would he still be seen as a great middle-super middle by as many?
1. I answered the question about "Naz best win" the best way I could. I couldn't decide so tried to break it down fighter by fighter starting with Steve Robinson. You ignored discussing Robinson but then stated thatNaz never beat a legend in the mold of Pac or Morales so it's hard to pinpoint the best amongst all the world-class fighters he beat. How is that not reasonable?Quote:
- you'd rather not discuss the ins and outs of Kevin Kelley's career if that's ok.
2. Naz was the best featherweight of his time. Not the best fighter. Featherweight. If he wasn't then who was?
3. Morales is Barrera's best win. Agreed. Although Barrera himself doesn't think so.
barrera is an ATG but i always thought he was a bit overrated at the time he was fighting. i think what really helped him was the morales fights. he showed that he could hang in there and even beat another ATG while he lost to and struggled against lesser opponents. naz may be his best win though because the first two fights with morales can be disputed on who won but he clearly beat naz who was a very good fighter.
??? Is there anything about Steve Robinson that really warranted a discusion? :vd: Surely a fighter's name should do most of the talking for itself?
If you want to talk about 'The Cindarella Man' then start another passive agressive thread about him. :)
I thought you started this thread to talk about Barrera? I'd like to read this interview you happened to be reading, do you have a link? I'd like to read how Barerra sees it.
You could be right Powerpuncher, Morales is clearly the better name, but those wins were guttsy, hair and nail wins... Hamed may not have been on Morales' level, but the way Barrera was able to make him look lost and amaturish elevates the win, but then some people claim that Hamed's peak was years before then?
But Adam that's where things get dicey. You cant on the one hand make such a big deal about Mab beating Hamed and then dismiss Hamed. Prior to fighting Junior Jones people were already comparing MAB to other Mexican greats like Zarate and Sanchez. What Mab has over Hamed is name rec but that does not take away from how good Hamed was anymore then it takes away from how good Calzaghe was.Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamGB
A fighters name should talk for itself? Seriously? That's funny considering.Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamGB
This thread was soley about Barrera. I never once mentioned Naz until you brought him up. Am I not allowed to respond to accusations aimed directly at me? Behave.
"Definitely the best fight I had and my best victory was against Naseem Hamed," Barrera told THE RING while speaking of the 2001 master class that snapped the Prince's perfect record.
Here's your link. Enjoy - In the April issue: Marco Antonio Barrera's 'Best I Faced' - Ring TV
((by the way - don't be shy about revealing who the best featherweight in the world was when Naz was the best featherweight in the world ;)))
What's wrong with talking about one of Barrera's opponents in a thread about Barrera's best opponents? ??? All I did was elaborate on why I picked Morales over Hamed and explained to IamInuit why the ulterior motive you had when posting this thread was misguided.
I'm also not sure how I 'brought hamed' into this thread when two posters had already mentioned him before me.
Only one person here started discussing a fighter that Barrera didn't ever fight and it wasn't me :vd:
Steve Robinson is of little relevance here, not Naseem Hamed.
It's a shame that's not the full article, would have liked to hear his reasoning. I know he took personal satisfaction from it, there was genuine animosity. MaB had taken issue with his clowning, talking and body slamming of cesar soto etc. He genuinley didn't like Hamed.
I'm not completely dismissing Hamed, Inuit... I just don't put him quite in same tier as MaB/Pac/Jmm/Morales. Unfortunately he walked away before we got to find out. Speculating is for today's fighters, not last decade's.
Hamed was still a good fighter, beat his share of title holders and was top of the featherweight division for 5 years... The way Mab completely shut him down makes that win a big one, I just can't put Hamed quite on the level of those four.
He didn't beat anyone that good if you think about it, other than Naz.
So now Morales wasn't that good either? We'll have written off every songle fighter from the 90s by the end of the week! ;D
Morales was good but he wasn't as good as Nas, Nas was MAB's best win and the win that will define his career!Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamGB
The only one MAB fought better than Nas was Pac, and we all know how those fights went ;D
But Morales beat Pac once and was a 4 weight champion? ;)
I jusr don't know anymore... lol
"Morales was good but he wasn't as good as Nas, "
Come on, stop fooling around! :):):)
Yeah Morales did good, but come on Naz is a legend.Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamGB
I hate it when you can't decide if something is sarcasm or not.Quote:
Originally Posted by BeanflickerMorales was good but he wasn't as good as Nas, Nas was MAB's best win and the win that will define his career!Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamGB
The only one MAB fought better than Nas was Pac, and we all know how those fights went ;D
In other news, MABs best win was for sure against Rocky "I got 65 title shots and couldn't ever win one " Juarez.
Finally. Well done boy.Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamGB
Thank you, it's obviously not easy to give a direct response to a question, so I'm sure you appreciate me doing it.
Hamed being the most successful fighter active at 122-126lbs between 95 and 00 wasn't what I find disputable (nor is his place in the HOF), you just seemed like you needed reassuring and I'm a nice guy.
Morales is King. Naz was a prince. Barrera the Ruler.;DQuote:
Originally Posted by BeanflickerYeah Morales did good, but come on Naz is a legend.Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamGB
Morales is the peoples champion and that is what counts the most, Erik wins ;).
A real KING serves the public.
Read below, who else does that for the fans? :cool:
Morales defeated then three-division world champion Filipino boxer Manny Pacquiao, by a unanimous decision. During the 12th round, Morales, comfortably ahead on the scorecards, decided to brawl with the Filipino slugger, even turning southpaw during the process. In a post fight interview, HBO broadcaster Larry Merchant, asked Morales, "Why?" Morales replied by asking a question of his own, "Did you enjoy it? That's why." Later that night, at the post-fight press conference, Erik further explained his reasoning for brawling with the Filipino slugger; "It was a great pleasure to fight this way. I think I was controlling the fight with my distance. Sometimes I need to put a little flavor into the ring. My promoter always says that I make the fights very difficult, but they're not difficult, they're fun for the public. I decided to stop myself in front of him in the twelfth round because I wanted to give the public what they deserve. It was a great round. I'm very happy about it."[7]
;D;DQuote:
Originally Posted by AdamGB
It's possibly his most famous victory because he burst Naz's bubble. Naz was the biggest thing in the lower weights at the time due to the sport being 50% showbusiness.Quote:
Originally Posted by FensterA fighters name should talk for itself? Seriously? That's funny considering.Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamGB
This thread was soley about Barrera. I never once mentioned Naz until you brought him up. Am I not allowed to respond to accusations aimed directly at me? Behave.
"Definitely the best fight I had and my best victory was against Naseem Hamed," Barrera told THE RING while speaking of the 2001 master class that snapped the Prince's perfect record.
Here's your link. Enjoy - In the April issue: Marco Antonio Barrera's 'Best I Faced' - Ring TV
((by the way - don't be shy about revealing who the best featherweight in the world was when Naz was the best featherweight in the world ;)))
His best fight was his first fight against Morales and he earned more respect from boxing fans in that single loss than Naz did for his entire career.
Barrera beat undefeated top p4p fighters in their prime in morales and Hamed
Not many fighters can say they've done that
Hamed was a good entertaining fighter. Fun to watch. But an ATG he was not. Facts don’t lie. And facts are Hamed never beat a real good fighter who was in his prime. All the fighters he fought who were a name came in with ridiculous amount of mileage on them. When Hamed fought Barrera. Barrera had already fought 55 times. Cesar Soto 63. Wilfredo Vazquez 59. Kevin Kelley 50. Vuyani Bungu 39. Tom Johnson 48. Manuel Medina 59. The ones that didn't Paul Ingle and Wayne McCullough were not as good as the previous fighters mentioned. McCullough was average. Ingle was straight garbage.
Watched Naz on sky and he said the reason he got beaten so comprehensively against Barrera was because he had broken his hand against Sanchez and was out the ring for 7 months. He had to lose over 2 stones in 8 weeks and said he was in the sauna the eve of the fight trying to lose 2 pounds.
But Naz always stated that Allah won him all his fights :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
So what happened this time around? Was Allah like "no dude you are on your own this time around, broken hand,lounging in the spa,Mexican champ. Good luck and everything though".
Hamed was never exactly a lean fighter... He never once looked dry or tight at any weight. Only got himself to blame for not getting down to fighting weight quickly enough.
Bit of a lame excuse, it wasn't an extremely physical fight, he wasn't out muscled or out paced, he was comprehensively out boxed...
Manny Steward said Naz only sparred 12 rounds during the whole camp and watched nothing of Barrera apart from Junior Jones sparking him out. He was convinced that he'd knock him out easy.
You just have to watch that "little prince" film that documents the buildup to see what a complete and utter megalomaniac moron he was (had become).
He also said he fell out of love with the game by 28 because he had been in the game for 21 years.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenster
He also said he should not have left Warren and that he made millions against MAB and could not turn down that fight.