10-9 round with a knockdown?
Are ringside judges obligated to take a point from a fighter for what the ref rules a knockdown?
I'm re-watching Pacquiao-Algieri, and in regards to the two times when Pacquiao is credited with a knockdown though it appears more likely that Algieri slipped, would a judge have to score that round 10-8 if that was the only "knockdown" in the round? Could they score it 10-9 for Pacquiao instead? In other words, if a judge believes the ref made the wrong call and it should've been a slip, can the judge essentially ignore the ref's ruling when it comes time to score the round?
On a related note, what about a round in which Fighter A mostly dominates the round but Fighter B gets a knockdown? Can the judge score that 10-9 for Fighter A even though he got knocked down? Or can they score it 9-9 if they think Fighter A still won the round despite getting knocked down? Or do they have to score it 10-8 for Fighter B automatically because there was a knockdown?
Re: 10-9 round with a knockdown?
I'm not sure but a judge should NEVER be allowed to over rule a ref's decision IMO, no more so than a ref should be able to overrule a judge's decision and raise the hand of the other guy. If the ref says it's a knockdown, right or wrong it's a knockdown.
Re: 10-9 round with a knockdown?
yeah this is one solid factor in judging rounds
Re: 10-9 round with a knockdown?
100% the judges should be allowed to overrule refs!
Watch Martin J Wards fight from Saturday there, he ended up with a draw BUT he was dropped by a headbutt for 10-8 and he CLEARLY slipped on the adverts around the edge of the ring for 10-8 also.
So he would have won the fight if the judges had seen the headbutt/slip and overruled the ref.
Re: 10-9 round with a knockdown?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Vendettos
100% the judges should be allowed to overrule refs!
Watch Martin J Wards fight from Saturday there, he ended up with a draw BUT he was dropped by a headbutt for 10-8 and he CLEARLY slipped on the adverts around the edge of the ring for 10-8 also.
So he would have won the fight if the judges had seen the headbutt/slip and overruled the ref.
yeah but what if the judge overruled a knockdown because of a headbut that he saw and scored it 10-9 the other way but it turned out the headbutt he thought he saw was actually a punch and the fight has swung 3 points in the other fellas favour?
Re: 10-9 round with a knockdown?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
erics44
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Vendettos
100% the judges should be allowed to overrule refs!
Watch Martin J Wards fight from Saturday there, he ended up with a draw BUT he was dropped by a headbutt for 10-8 and he CLEARLY slipped on the adverts around the edge of the ring for 10-8 also.
So he would have won the fight if the judges had seen the headbutt/slip and overruled the ref.
yeah but what if the judge overruled a knockdown because of a headbut that he saw and scored it 10-9 the other way but it turned out the headbutt he thought he saw was actually a punch and the fight has swung 3 points in the other fellas favour?
Then that judge should be given 10 seconds to run an shot after 3.
Unfortunately that would be unfair but you'd hope that an overrule would be based on something you clearly saw.
I mean if the ref standing 3 feet away couldn't see Ward being headbutted I'm not entirely sure how the judges would see it.
Boxing is a sport with so many issues and this is just another piece of the puzzle.
Re: 10-9 round with a knockdown?
If person A dominates 2 minutes and 50 seconds of a rd and then gets dropped that's a 10/9 round. It does not have to be 2:50 but as an example.
Re: 10-9 round with a knockdown?
So it is part of the rules that a knockdown is an automatic 1-point deduction (for the guy getting knocked down), or not? That's what I'm wondering about. Are the judges bound by the rules to deduct one point for a knockdown, just like they would if they ref told them to deduct a point for low blows or something ... or is it just an unwritten rule that you take a point away from a guy who gets knocked down?
Re: 10-9 round with a knockdown?
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Originally Posted by
Primo Carnera
Quote:
Originally Posted by
IamInuit
If person A dominates 2 minutes and 50 seconds of a rd and then gets dropped that's a 10/9 round. It does not have to be 2:50 but as an example.
Surely the instance above would be a 9-9 round , no?
If you get dropped , you can't have 10 points can you, even if you win the round?
Funniest think was when Tommy Coyle fought Brizuela and they both went down 4 times, Paul Smith commentating said his scorecard looked like a Sudoku!
Of for sure. Depends on the time. Point is and in answer to the question NO, a judge is not always obligated to rule a 10/8 on a kd.
Re: 10-9 round with a knockdown?
What if a judge blows a call like in Bradley vs Prov where Bradley was down and barley hurt falling all over the place. But the ref called it a slip and ruled no knockdown could the judges declare it a KD and deduct a point. In that fight it that ruling was crucial and would have awarded Prov the win.
Re: 10-9 round with a knockdown?
The convoluted 10 point 'must' system makes it arse backwards. Theory is the winner must be awarded ten points save for a point deduct or even round etc. To me it doesn't matter if a fighter wins the majority of a round but is dropped by even a flash down. If you are dropped you -lose- a point and it has to be a 9-9. I always go to Holyfield v Moorer 1 in the second round. Dominate Moorer round, dropped hard at end and it was scored 10-10. Judges are sketchy enough and they shouldn't be jumbling numbers to adhere to what is already a matter of opinion when defining a round winner amd definitly do not need to be disregarding a refs ruling. Keep it simple
Re: 10-9 round with a knockdown?
In amateur at least the judges can over rule what the ref says. The thing is, the judges are sat around the ring and may have a better perspective of whatever happened than the ref.
Even in football/soccer the ref will look to the linesman before he makes a call (I think, im not a football fan.
Re: 10-9 round with a knockdown?
isn't it a 10pt must system so you have to score it 10-10 if both got knocked down?
Re: 10-9 round with a knockdown?
In theory the judges make their call on who won the round based on the ten point must system, then remove points for knockdowns, fouls etc.
Real world, you get dropped, you're dropping the round 10 - 8. You'd have to be really going some to overturn that and I cant think of an example of when that's happened, although that's more to do with my shit memory than it not actually happening.
No the judges shouldn't be calling knockdowns that the referee doesn't rule. The pricks have enough trouble scoring as it is, lets not give them any more latitude to fuck it up.
Re: 10-9 round with a knockdown?
If my memory is correct, when matthew Hilton fought Fermin Chirino he was very clearly winning the first round and was dropped at the bell. I think the round ended up being 10-10 on the card of at least one judge. Also, the first Holyfield/Moorer fight. In the 2nd round- I think- Moorer was very clearly winning the round and was dropped. I believe two judges scored that round 10-9 Holyfield and that ended up impacting the outcome of the fight.
Re: 10-9 round with a knockdown?
More Holyfield fights:
Holyfield beating up Cooper when he was knocked down and gets back up and smashes him around again would be 10-10.
Holyfield v Bowe 1 when Evander got knocked down and came back strong at the end of the fight should have been 10-9 to Bowe.
Re: 10-9 round with a knockdown?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
greynotsoold
If my memory is correct, when matthew Hilton fought Fermin Chirino he was very clearly winning the first round and was dropped at the bell. I think the round ended up being 10-10 on the card of at least one judge. Also, the first Holyfield/Moorer fight. In the 2nd round- I think- Moorer was very clearly winning the round and was dropped. I believe two judges scored that round 10-9 Holyfield and that ended up impacting the outcome of the fight.
That was Roth and it was difference between a draw or Moorer win. It's my pet peeve.. if you go down you are automatic 8 and THEN you decide 8 or 9 depending on earlier control or recovery etc. That point goes to Holyfield making it 10-9.
Re: 10-9 round with a knockdown?
In a perfect world judges would be able to overrule a ref for me, as clear knockdowns sometimes are missed just as slips or pushes are sometimes called knockdowns. I agree that it shouldn't be encouraged and would get way out of hand, after all the Ref is the guy in the ring and as long as he's doing his job there is nobody in a better position to make those calls.
You can't have a 9-9 round by way of the 10 point must system as far as I know. It's a tough call if you have a guy dominate a round and then go down on a balance shot without getting hurt, say. Is that 10-9 or 10-10? I imagine this happens about as often as a 10-8 round is awarded without a knockdown occurring, which is also well within the rules but rare to see scored.
Re: 10-9 round with a knockdown?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
p4pking
In a perfect world judges would be able to overrule a ref for me, as clear knockdowns sometimes are missed just as slips or pushes are sometimes called knockdowns. I agree that it shouldn't be encouraged and would get way out of hand, after all the Ref is the guy in the ring and as long as he's doing his job there is nobody in a better position to make those calls.
You can't have a 9-9 round by way of the 10 point must system as far as I know. It's a tough call if you have a guy dominate a round and then go down on a balance shot without getting hurt, say. Is that 10-9 or 10-10? I imagine this happens about as often as a 10-8 round is awarded without a knockdown occurring, which is also well within the rules but rare to see scored.
You can have a 9-9 round. I've seen it happen when Fighter A wins the round 10-9 but has a point deducted for a foul. I've seen 9-8 rounds, where Fighter A wins the round, scores a knockdown, but loses a point for a foul.
Re: 10-9 round with a knockdown?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
greynotsoold
Quote:
Originally Posted by
p4pking
In a perfect world judges would be able to overrule a ref for me, as clear knockdowns sometimes are missed just as slips or pushes are sometimes called knockdowns. I agree that it shouldn't be encouraged and would get way out of hand, after all the Ref is the guy in the ring and as long as he's doing his job there is nobody in a better position to make those calls.
You can't have a 9-9 round by way of the 10 point must system as far as I know. It's a tough call if you have a guy dominate a round and then go down on a balance shot without getting hurt, say. Is that 10-9 or 10-10? I imagine this happens about as often as a 10-8 round is awarded without a knockdown occurring, which is also well within the rules but rare to see scored.
You can have a 9-9 round. I've seen it happen when Fighter A wins the round 10-9 but has a point deducted for a foul. I've seen 9-8 rounds, where Fighter A wins the round, scores a knockdown, but loses a point for a foul.
Hmm ok. I've seen that I think on say Teddy Atlas' cards, but the way judges score, aren't any points deducted taken off a total at the end? Otherwise a round where both guys score a knockdown say, would often be 9-9 or 9-8 even? Could be wrong, or maybe the ten point must system hasn't always been used everywhere..
