JourneyMen: The GateKeepers

Bert Cooper is a fav of mines.
Carl Williams, Tommy Morrison, Orlin Norris, Riddick Bowe,
Ray Mercer & he fought a G-damn hellatious scrap.
Evander got rocked BAD by him, Michael Moorer & he whooped each other for 5 rounds.

Undefeated Larry Donald, Chris Byrd, Fres Oquendo, Baby Joe Mesi... In order to get to the HW title, you had to go through the the GateKeeper: Smokin' Bert Cooper


Emanual Augustus- Undefeated Ivon Robinson & Leonard Dorin had to go through the drunken master .
Antonio Diaz fought him.
A young Money Mayweather said he was his toughest foe- 'till he fought Cotto. about a decade later. Future champ Jesus Chavez had to go through him.
Mickey Ward, Leavander Johnson, Alex Truillo & soon to be champ David Diaz. & Spolier for 37-1 ranked Carlos Wilfredo Vilches who lost to the drunken master.

Most recently Provodnokov and then undefeated 23-0 Vernon Paris also chose the Drunken Master to hone their skills.

Some fighters who have bad records aren't all tomato cans
Some have bad records because they are good enough to make it to the top, but not beat the top there.

Got to give credit to the fighters who gatekeep!

My top two: Smokin Cooper & the Drunken Master Augustus.
Honorable mentions to Reggie Strickland who fought everyone & their daddy, cousin & unlce!

Freddie Pendleton. WAY better than his record would suggest. Gave prime Pernell Whitaker a run for his money.

Darnell Boone for sure too. Andre Ward (dropped Andre and gave him a very tough fight), Jean Pascal, Curtis Stevens, Lara, Adonis Stevenson 2x (knocked out Stevenson and gave him his only loss), Kovalev 2x (arguably beat Kovalev in the first fight). He was competitive with all of them.

Those are two guys you couldn't judge by their records (as Adonis Stevenson found out).

Glenn Johnson was a favourite gatekeeper and even had a peak where he beat Target and Jones before going back to gatekeeper status.

Okkte Urkal was a tough testing ground for many whom we love, always gave it his best.

A journey used to be a person whos second job was boxing.
Some also think of one as a fighter who has stood the test of time and is always there as a testing ground for the top tier fighters.
Can think of any journeymen who fought their way into top tier? Winky.

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Originally Posted by SlimTrae

Bert Cooper is a fav of mines.
Carl Williams, Tommy Morrison, Orlin Norris, Riddick Bowe,
Ray Mercer & he fought a G-damn hellatious scrap.
Evander got rocked BAD by him, Michael Moorer & he whooped each other for 5 rounds.

Undefeated Larry Donald, Chris Byrd, Fres Oquendo, Baby Joe Mesi... In order to get to the HW title, you had to go through the the GateKeeper: Smokin' Bert Cooper


Emanual Augustus- Undefeated Ivon Robinson & Leonard Dorin had to go through the drunken master .
Antonio Diaz fought him.
A young Money Mayweather said he was his toughest foe- 'till he fought Cotto. about a decade later. Future champ Jesus Chavez had to go through him.
Mickey Ward, Leavander Johnson, Alex Truillo & soon to be champ David Diaz. & Spolier for 37-1 ranked Carlos Wilfredo Vilches who lost to the drunken master.

Most recently Provodnokov and then undefeated 23-0 Vernon Paris also chose the Drunken Master to hone their skills.

Some fighters who have bad records aren't all tomato cans
Some have bad records because they are good enough to make it to the top, but not beat the top there.

Got to give credit to the fighters who gatekeep!

My top two: Smokin Cooper & the Drunken Master Augustus.
Honorable mentions to Reggie Strickland who fought everyone & their daddy, cousin & unlce!

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Funny I was just talking to @Master about Simon Brown who was an overachieving gate keeper and how he ruined my day one evening in 1986 when he stopped O'Sullivan who did break his hand in the first round.

Then you have to go and bring up Bert Cooper who just 7 months later in Feb of 87 would destroy my world once again in his bruising of Willie Dewitt.;D

Augustus could have been so much more if not for his free spirit and crazy ways.


Good thread.

@ BF, Freddie Pendleton, forgot about him.

For some reason Pendleton made me think of Angel Manfreddy. Not sure where he ranks: Journeyman, Underachiever or Overachiever.

He did beat Gatti, Jorge Paez, Ivan Robinson.

He could win the WBU belt, but not the big 3 ,WBC, IBF,WBA & the (WBO) was still trying to break through back then...I think?

Once he got to the WBC-green belt, he couldn't snatch it. Mayweather, then Stevie Johnston, Corrales all beat him

Then he turns around & beats undefeated Julio Diaz to get another title shot and Paul Spadafora defeats him. :confused:

I remember gettin' a few cold ones for an ESPN boxing night, My boy Angel Manfreddy about to take on someone named Courtney Burton...:D

Damn, Burton knocked him the F... out. Not sure where to put Angel at. Always great to watch him, but I could never figure out, why he never got one of the big belts.

@ Inuit- Interesting: O'Sullivan? Never seen that one, but I have watched quite a few of Simon Brown fights. I've always considered him a champ, considering he got the belt and defended it a few times against worthy names. Maurice Blocker IMO being his signature win. But I could see calling him an overachiever.

I don't think Angel Manfredy was even close to being a journeyman. He was a champ and top ranked fighter for awhile.

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Originally Posted by Andre

A journey used to be a person whos second job was boxing.
Some also think of one as a fighter who has stood the test of time and is always there as a testing ground for the top tier fighters.
Can think of any journeymen who fought their way into top tier? Winky.

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Steve Lightning Little, RIP. Clawed and clawed with spotty but deep record until he out hustled a smirking Michael Nunn for a strap.

Journeymen to me arrive at different points. Guys who like you said are in half way from the start. Guys paying rent and a car note but "serviceable" enough to pad records for a few rounds but brought in strictly as TBA. Then you have pluggers who came with potential and literally learned on the job but the point is they learned a bit, take some guys rounds, have a moment vs a touted prospect and then are seriously overlooked based on record and rep and then score big "upset". Or prospects themselves who just go bust after being walked into a trinket win but didn't belong there in the first place but stick around. On and on

Its a good question really. After all its the journeymen who make the sport. When I think journeymen its guys like a John the beast Brown..plugger knocked off a few early undefeated prospects and damn hard enough to go rounds and be tv friendly. Darryl Pinckney who pulled a golden rabbit outta his arse ko'ing Junior jones? Marion Wilson or Bigfoot Martin at heavyweights, Cosme Rivera...Mr short notice TBA himself. Livingston Bramble, champion to hard nut journeyman thanks to a rock hard head and guile.

Recent: Tony Thompson ;) Soto Karass :)

Harold Brazier?
Sammy Fuentes ?

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Originally Posted by Spicoli

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Originally Posted by Andre

A journey used to be a person whos second job was boxing.
Some also think of one as a fighter who has stood the test of time and is always there as a testing ground for the top tier fighters.
Can think of any journeymen who fought their way into top tier? Winky.

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Steve Lightning Little, RIP. Clawed and clawed with spotty but deep record until he out hustled a smirking Michael Nunn for a strap.

Journeymen to me arrive at different points. Guys who like you said are in half way from the start. Guys paying rent and a car note but "serviceable" enough to pad records for a few rounds but brought in strictly as TBA. Then you have pluggers who came with potential and literally learned on the job but the point is they learned a bit, take some guys rounds, have a moment vs a touted prospect and then are seriously overlooked based on record and rep and then score big "upset". Or prospects themselves who just go bust after being walked into a trinket win but didn't belong there in the first place but stick around. On and on

Its a good question really. After all its the journeymen who make the sport. When I think journeymen its guys like a John the beast Brown..plugger knocked off a few early undefeated prospects and damn hard enough to go rounds and be tv friendly. Darryl Pinckney who pulled a golden rabbit outta his arse ko'ing Junior jones? Marion Wilson or Bigfoot Martin at heavyweights, Cosme Rivera...Mr short notice TBA himself. Livingston Bramble, champion to hard nut journeyman thanks to a rock hard head and guile.

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Excellent post.

Steve Forbes,

Im still reeling from his win over francesco Bojado.
Bojado was in good shape to get in contentions, but Forbes brought his 'A' game.

I also wanted to say Keith Mullings, but i think he was a tomato can that stopped Terry Norris.

Lots of gate keepers have won a strap just to be clear.

I consider Zab Judah a gate keeper just as much as I consider David Tua to be one.

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Originally Posted by SlimTrae

Steve Forbes,

Im still reeling from his win over francesco Bojado.
Bojado was in good shape to get in contentions, but Forbes brought his 'A' game.

I also wanted to say Keith Mullings, but i think he was a tomato can that stopped Terry Norris.

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Good call on Forbes. Mullings was in the right place at the right time but earned that shot after a very shady "loss" vs Marquez and all on two weeks notice. He put himself in line for the De La Hoya sweepstakes but fortunately for him ;D came in flat against Castillejo(?).

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

Lots of gate keepers have won a strap just to be clear.

I consider Zab Judah a gate keeper just as much as I consider David Tua to be one.

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I consider Zab a mental midget. Serious, the dude had speed, a lethal uppercut, but faded after six rounds. Didn't seem to be a stamina issue to me, more like a mental block.

IMO Zab had the tools to be a legit champ. Most journeymen I think would love to have had his abilities, but somehow he kept falling apart.

Tua, you got me there. Like Lennox said : takes more than a right hand and a haircut to the get the title.

In England we have Ovil Mckenzie

High end journeyman, Beat Ovil and you're a good fighter

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Originally Posted by SlimTrae

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

Lots of gate keepers have won a strap just to be clear.

I consider Zab Judah a gate keeper just as much as I consider David Tua to be one.

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I consider Zab a mental midget. Serious, the dude had speed, a lethal uppercut, but faded after six rounds. Didn't seem to be a stamina issue to me, more like a mental block.

IMO Zab had the tools to be a legit champ. Most journeymen I think would love to have had his abilities, but somehow he kept falling apart.

Tua, you got me there. Like Lennox said : takes more than a right hand and a haircut to the get the title.

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Tua was not the sharpest knife in the drawer either. ZAB had some nice skills but so did David Reid. The mentalsaspects of a given fighter can be just as much evidence for "gate keeper" status as anything else. I personally believe that the cerebral cortex is the most important organ/muscle/skill in the sport. After all in my mind that is what separated Judah from true elite. It makes no difference to me that he captured a belt or two along the way in a 15 belt per division system. He seems to have matured over the past couple of years and settled down. Shame it happened so late.

Guys like Tua and Miranda are gate keepers that nobody could miss. All one has to do is reflect on the history of the opponents they lost to and who they beat. With Tua, Fres got checked at the gate and Moorer's comeback came to a screeching halt and Rahman was refused entry the first time. Judahs career reflects in a similar manner but people tend to remember the 15 second highlight reel footage of spectacular nature against a no hoper.

Tackie was one hell of test for the key.
Katsidis
Bika
Andrade

You better bring your A game against these guys.

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

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Originally Posted by SlimTrae

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

Lots of gate keepers have won a strap just to be clear.

I consider Zab Judah a gate keeper just as much as I consider David Tua to be one.

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I consider Zab a mental midget. Serious, the dude had speed, a lethal uppercut, but faded after six rounds. Didn't seem to be a stamina issue to me, more like a mental block.

IMO Zab had the tools to be a legit champ. Most journeymen I think would love to have had his abilities, but somehow he kept falling apart.

Tua, you got me there. Like Lennox said : takes more than a right hand and a haircut to the get the title.

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Tua was not the sharpest knife in the drawer either. ZAB had some nice skills but so did David Reid. The mentalsaspects of a given fighter can be just as much evidence for "gate keeper" status as anything else. I personally believe that the cerebral cortex is the most important organ/muscle/skill in the sport. After all in my mind that is what separated Judah from true elite. It makes no difference to me that he captured a belt or two along the way in a 15 belt per division system. He seems to have matured over the past couple of years and settled down. Shame it happened so late.

Guys like Tua and Miranda are gate keepers that nobody could miss. All one has to do is reflect on the history of the opponents they lost to and who they beat. With Tua, Fres got checked at the gate and Moorer's comeback came to a screeching halt and Rahman was refused entry the first time. Judahs career reflects in a similar manner but people tend to remember the 15 second highlight reel footage of spectacular nature against a no hoper.

Tackie was one hell of test for the key.
Katsidis
Bika
Andrade

You better bring your A game against these guys.

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A few gems in this post.
1. I've heard quite a few old-timers say that David Reid got rushed- he had a drooping eye problem so it was more of a thing where his handlers cashed in on him. Saying this from memory talking with some geezer I met at a boxing hall of fame.
2. I concede on your point with Zab and the Cerebral cortex-in the end he gatekept.
3. Tua, I guess was too one dimensional, but damn! Why'd you bring up Tua-Moorer :mad: I had the brew on ice, ordered a pizza and had a few buddies...30 seconds later...:o
Not sure if you seen it, but right as Moorer's head lays on the bottom rope- You can see his trainer--clear as day, shake is head and say DAMN! - with a look of, tell me this shit didnt just happen!!;D
4. Katsidis could have at least got the belt from Casamayor---even he admitted he got himself knocked out. After that his inside game got pegged, thus reduced to the guy everyone else fights to get to the title.
5. Ben Tackie Saki Bika, yeah, they are on quite a few resumes. Edison Miranda, wow, him too.

Peter Manfredo Jr

Really cool guy, probably could make a great comedian!

Doesn't have the best skills but was chosen a few times by Calzaghe, Lacy, Bika and JCC jr, managed a win over Scott Pemberton & Angel Hernandez.

Calzaghe would've won without help, but the stoppage was pure garbage.

David Tua was one of the best boxers never to win a HW world title!

He layed waste to boxers who were HW champions, unfortunately just not when they were in possession of the title. And he has been a HW title challenger too.

He has also faced many top contender boxers.

This is not the profile of a journeyman.

David Tua might have had limited skillset but he was very strong and very powerful, able to put it together with the very best of them. In fact, only Lennox Lewis (who did) or a Klitschko (who would have) beat him up easily. And even Lennox couldn't knock the guy out.

Calling Tua a journeyman is nothing short of a disgusting insult!

Audley Harrison is a journeyman, Jesse Fergusson was a journeyman. Let's not get confused here!

Calling Tua a journeyman is nothing short of a disgusting insult!

Yet you have called heavyweight champions bums. Irony. :)

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Originally Posted by Master

Calling Tua a journeyman is nothing short of a disgusting insult!

Yet you have called heavyweight champions bums. Irony. :)

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Your on a roll today :)

But alas, I don't have to respect a guy like say, Ron Lyle's chances against modern HW's to still declare that he is also one of the best guys not to win a HW title also.

But you are right in another way.

Early in the piece I remember a post I made.. It went something like this...

Liston was a bum,
Frazier was a bum,
Norton was a bum,
Spinks was a bum,

sadly these were some of Ali's best wins!

Well by my own definition of "bum" (a boxer who has lost a quarter or more of their fights), clearly these guys are not really bums and I retract that statement. Even though I don't like it. I think their records if they were allowed to box today at HW or other would look much different.

I did make a statement where I thought it was valid. Walcott. He did have a bummy record. Testament to a weak era.

I guess there is a concession where Walcott may have fought top opponents and LOST often which can be viewed against Wilder who has never lost but then again never fought top opposition to really know.

The problem is SOLVED by my rating system automatically by deleting all bums of records and comparing only MEANINGFUL fights. That's why I actually DO degrade Wilder because his record is basically non-existent w/o bums.

Michael Katsidis is a gatekeeper.

Lost all of his step up fights, Casamayor, Diaz, Marquez, Guerrerro and 2 surprise losses -to which a gatekeeper or journeyman is prone to. Then gets to fight undefeated Kevin Mitchell. Bad style of fight for Mitchell's camp IMO. If the ref would've allowed it to go on, Michael would've won and probably even a rematch with Kevin.

Katsidis needs an inside fight to show his stuff, to which Mitchell accommodated. Anyone who fights this guy to get a notch on their belt should know how to fight on the outside or else have a set of whiskers and a heep of stamina.

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Originally Posted by Max Power

David Tua was one of the best boxers never to win a HW world title!

He layed waste to boxers who were HW champions, unfortunately just not when they were in possession of the title. And he has been a HW title challenger too.

He has also faced many top contender boxers.

This is not the profile of a journeyman.

David Tua might have had limited skillset but he was very strong and very powerful, able to put it together with the very best of them. In fact, only Lennox Lewis (who did) or a Klitschko (who would have) beat him up easily. And even Lennox couldn't knock the guy out.

Calling Tua a journeyman is nothing short of a disgusting insult!

Audley Harrison is a journeyman, Jesse Fergusson was a journeyman. Let's not get confused here!

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I had to think about this...something seemed different from your normal bashing of all HW's not named Klitchko or Haye..

Type up the thread:

http://www.saddoboxing.com/boxingfor...opponents.html


And you stated this:
Chambers outboxes Tua every day of the week, Ibragimov has bashed Briggs and Holyfield, Peter pulverises Botha, Chagaev outboxes Golota and so on...


In this very post you state two things 1. Tua is one of the best to never win.
Then you state 2. might have had limited skillset

Maybe he didn't win the title, because he had a limit set of skill...;D But because he is powerful, that is your criteria for making him one of the best...to never win a many of the ABC belts, just priceless.



Priceless.:rolleyes:

Derek Chisora GateKeeper.
Uysk got a lot of what he needed which was a roughhousing fighter with grit, sturdy chin and tricks to piss a guy off.
Not sure where Derek can go at this point. Personally I think a great fight would be between him and either Luis Ortiz or Andy Ruiz Jr.

If Kovalev keeps fighting, he would be a nice notch for any up n comers.
@SMW I think Ring's #9 rated David Lemieux best days are behind him. He can starch anyone not on their A game. But won't ever see a major title fight. Same with Anthony Dirrell rated #4 by Ring. I don't think either guy will win a major title.
Both guys would make a great undercard: Anthony Dirrell vs Lemiuex would be fireworks. Or if Daniel Jacobs wants to stay in contention he can decision either guy.
Anyone looking to fight at SMW would have a great test in either guy.

@Mw, not sure about SERGIY DEREVYANCHENKO. Did he burn out from ams? AIBA fights? Or too many top notch fighters inside 16 fights? I don't think he can beat either Charlo nor Andrade & had his chance via 3G & Canelo. I think he can beat anyone ranked 5 thru 10.

@JrM I think Lara's best days are far behind yet Ring rates him #2. Any hot/cold fighter can get stunk out by Erislandy. A mobile fighter can eek out a win against him. I think he has 2 strikes against him-1st is his age and 2nd is his slow output counter punching style can be compromised. Jermell has no desire to face him and not sure Hurd Lara II would work, yet Erislandy is still a good fighter. Just no longer an elite one IMO.

@Welter I think both Garcia & Thurman are on the cusp of Gatekeeper. Inactivity, covid lockdown hasn't helped either.
Is Sean Porter now a champ turned Gatekeeper? Can't see Spence wanting anohter one and Crawford is probably to keen mentally to get pulled into a rough house rumble Porter style. Not sure how Sean can win another title. Can he move up?

@JrW, I think Postol is officially the guy to get to the the guy with a title. Not past it, just never proved he could beat elite.

Good choices. Kovalev is certainly treading on gatekeeper territory after showing up like Bambi in headlights for the Canelo fight. Ward had already softened him up and found his Achilles heel... and all aspiring opponents have to do is follow that blueprint.

Danny and Thurman are both pretty good choices, for the reasons you mentioned. Thurman's inactivity, for whatever reason, is maddening and puts him right into that category. Danny is a great fighters... but unfortunately hasn't been able to find that next gear and has lost at the elite level whenever given the chance.

Whoever this 6-0 Bektemir Melikuziev is, he sure doesn't think much of Kovalev. He pops on the test and the kid says no matter, let's fight! With the nickname of "The Bully" LOL! He does well, this makes Kov a Gatekeeper for real.
https://www.espn.com/boxing/story/_/...likuziev-doubt

https://boxrec.com/ru/proboxer/851162
https://theathletic.com/news/sergey-...s/Uf3m0tiTkhRE