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TYSON,the most over rated fighter of all time,what did he ever do?
Apart from winning the WBC HW title at a young age what ever did Tyson do?
In every hard fight he had he lost.
If someone stood up to him he crumbeled.
He was a classic school yard bully.loved to beat on smaller
blokes.
He never came back from defeat.
Quit when the going got tough.
TYSON IS THE MOST OVERRATED BOXER EVER!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Re: TYSON,the most over rated fighter of all time,what did he ever do?
What has he done?
More then Calzaghe ;)
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Re: TYSON,the most over rated fighter of all time,what did he ever do?
Saying apart from being the youngest heavyweight champion in the world is just foolish...
Thats like saying aprt from breaking the 4 minute mile what did Roger Bannister do for athletics? Or apart from being the first man on the moon what did Neil Armstrong contribute to space exploration?
He was the youngest heavyweight champion (the ultimate sporting accolade) in the history of the world! Thats a f***ing great achievement and bestows greatness upon him.
Seriously his record will probably never be beaten.
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Re: TYSON,the most over rated fighter of all time,what did he ever do?
Did you watch him during his prime... the only thing that held him back from taking away Ali's crown was his mind. He more phyiscal gifts than any other fighter barring RJJ. Tyson had a good style not the best for him IMO, but he used it more efficiently than any other fighter ever has... Had he not broken down mentally so much he might still be champion defending his zillionth title because he definitely still has the physical assets.
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Re: TYSON,the most over rated fighter of all time,what did he ever do?
maybe so, whether he was the most overrated fighter of all time is debatable, but for sure he was overrated compared to his actual accomplishments which weren't extraordinarily impressive
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Re: TYSON,the most over rated fighter of all time,what did he ever do?
He became the first undisputed heavyweight champion since Muhammad Ali....
Then he went to Jail for 4 years and still became the heavyweight champion after such a long layoff.
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Re: TYSON,the most over rated fighter of all time,what did he ever do?
Quote:
Originally Posted by •°¤*(¯`°~Starr~°´¯)* ¤Ã‚°â€¢
What has he done?
More then Calzaghe ;)
He has done a lot more than Calzaghe but I have never said that Calzaghe was 1 of the greatest fighters of all time.
HAVE I???????
Stick to the question. 8)
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Re: TYSON,the most over rated fighter of all time,what did he ever do?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taeth
Did you watch him during his prime... the only thing that held him back from taking away Ali's crown was his mind. He more phyiscal gifts than any other fighter barring RJJ. Tyson had a good style not the best for him IMO, but he used it more efficiently than any other fighter ever has... Had he not broken down mentally so much he might still be champion defending his zillionth title because he definitely still has the physical assets.
the mental aspect is of primary importance to boxing, just look at Bernard Hopkins who didn't have the physical gifts of an elite fighter but because he always stayed in shape, and always had a single minded devotion to the game became a great. Tyson's career is based on unfulfilled potential
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Re: TYSON,the most over rated fighter of all time,what did he ever do?
Quote:
Originally Posted by OumaFan
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taeth
Did you watch him during his prime... the only thing that held him back from taking away Ali's crown was his mind. He more phyiscal gifts than any other fighter barring RJJ. Tyson had a good style not the best for him IMO, but he used it more efficiently than any other fighter ever has... Had he not broken down mentally so much he might still be champion defending his zillionth title because he definitely still has the physical assets.
the mental aspect is of primary importance to boxing, just look at Bernard Hopkins who didn't have the physical gifts of an elite fighter but because he always stayed in shape, and always had a single minded devotion to the game became a great. Tyson's career is based on unfulfilled potential
Spopt on mate!
Have a CC.
Tyson had the potental but lacked the balls!
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Re: TYSON,the most over rated fighter of all time,what did he ever do?
Quote:
Originally Posted by OumaFan
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taeth
Did you watch him during his prime... the only thing that held him back from taking away Ali's crown was his mind. He more phyiscal gifts than any other fighter barring RJJ. Tyson had a good style not the best for him IMO, but he used it more efficiently than any other fighter ever has... Had he not broken down mentally so much he might still be champion defending his zillionth title because he definitely still has the physical assets.
the mental aspect is of primary importance to boxing, just look at Bernard Hopkins who didn't have the physical gifts of an elite fighter but because he always stayed in shape, and always had a single minded devotion to the game became a great. Tyson's career is based on unfulfilled potential
I agree the mental aspect is important, and thats why Tyson isn't an all time great, he just had the most potential we've ever seen, and we got a glimpse of it during the begining of his career and that was enough to know he would have been better than Ali. Bernard Hopkins didn't have great physical gifts, but he had good ones. He had power before it eroded, and he had a good chin with good speed and he was a very large and strong middleweight. If he had gone even to SMW especially in the 90's he wouldn't even be mentioned nowadays.
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Re: TYSON,the most over rated fighter of all time,what did he ever do?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taeth
Quote:
Originally Posted by OumaFan
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taeth
Did you watch him during his prime... the only thing that held him back from taking away Ali's crown was his mind. He more phyiscal gifts than any other fighter barring RJJ. Tyson had a good style not the best for him IMO, but he used it more efficiently than any other fighter ever has... Had he not broken down mentally so much he might still be champion defending his zillionth title because he definitely still has the physical assets.
the mental aspect is of primary importance to boxing, just look at Bernard Hopkins who didn't have the physical gifts of an elite fighter but because he always stayed in shape, and always had a single minded devotion to the game became a great. Tyson's career is based on unfulfilled potential
I agree the mental aspect is important, and thats why Tyson isn't an all time great, he just had the most potential we've ever seen, and we got a glimpse of it during the begining of his career and that was enough to know he would have been better than Ali. Bernard Hopkins didn't have great physical gifts, but he had good ones. He had power before it eroded, and he had a good chin with good speed and he was a very large and strong middleweight. If he had gone even to SMW especially in the 90's he wouldn't even be mentioned nowadays.
I agree that he had absolutely frightening potential...but we never saw him in those early days against the quality of fighters that Ali faced. Personally I think Ali would have broke down Tyson mentally and embarrassed him but I know people disagree with me on that. Ali had the physical tools, the toughness, and most importantly the mental strength. Bernard was talented, no doubt, but guys like Donald Curry had much more talent and couldn't keep it together, Bernard's mental toughness and discipline were his best attributes IMO
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Re: TYSON,the most over rated fighter of all time,what did he ever do?
Quote:
Originally Posted by porkypara
Apart from winning the WBC HW title at a young age what ever did Tyson do?
In every hard fight he had he lost.
If someone stood up to him he crumbeled.
He was a classic school yard bully.loved to beat on smaller
blokes.
He never came back from defeat.
Quit when the going got tough.
TYSON IS THE MOST OVERRATED BOXER EVER!!!!!!!!!!!!
About half of this is true and I'd say that the other half is false. First, Tyson did beat much bigger guys! He did fold against some good competitors. However, what did he do better than anyone else ever did? He knocked peoples' heads off and did it very fast!!!
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Re: TYSON,the most over rated fighter of all time,what did he ever do?
No-one had the speed, the power, the great defence etc etc that he had. He beat most of the dangermen at the time and the only way anyone lasted with him was if he was testing his own stamina or if they did the Bonecrusher style of holding 90% hitting 10% Had he been able to stay focused and stay right mentally, he would still be crushing opponents,Mike at his peak was phenomenal. A specimen. I have not seen a HW ANYWHERE near him in terms of the above mentioned attributes. Guys like Lewis who made their names of beating Tyson would not have lasted 6 rounds with peak Tyson.
The decline began when he split from the Catskill connection, you can see how lazy he looked in the Douglas fight and coupled with Douglas being AMAZING on the night, you can see why he lost. I would not say Tyson laced testicular fortitude(it was more mental breakdown!) He showed plenty of heart in the first Holyfield fight and in the fights with Rodduck. I just wish he had remained stable and we would be discussing an all time great right now :'(
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Re: TYSON,the most over rated fighter of all time,what did he ever do?
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Game
No-one had the speed, the power, the great defence etc etc that he had. He beat most of the dangermen at the time and the only way anyone lasted with him was if he was testing his own stamina or if they did the Bonecrusher style of holding 90% hitting 10% Had he been able to stay focused and stay right mentally, he would still be crushing opponents,Mike at his peak was phenomenal. A specimen. I have not seen a HW ANYWHERE near him in terms of the above mentioned attributes. Guys like Lewis who made their names of beating Tyson would not have lasted 6 rounds with peak Tyson.
  The decline began when he split from the Catskill connection, you can see how lazy he looked in the Douglas fight and coupled with Douglas being AMAZING on the night, you can see why he lost. I would not say Tyson laced testicular fortitude(it was more mental breakdown!) He showed plenty of heart in the first Holyfield fight and in the fights with Rodduck. I just wish he had remained stable and we would be discussing an all time great right now :'(
Game, I like the way that you explained it. :coolclick: Even when Lewis beat Tyson, he did use the strategy of holding a lot and even got penalized two points before tiring Mike out for the late knockout. Yes, Tyson lost a lot mentally and it was evident even when he lost his last fight to McBride. He just emotionally didn't want to fight anymore. Does anyone think that it all might have had something to do with him being too spoiled too early in life?
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Re: TYSON,the most over rated fighter of all time,what did he ever do?
Tyson did as much as he could during his prime....better than Calzaghe has done, I mean wait until you get to the end of your career to step up to someone....what a jip.
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Re: TYSON,the most over rated fighter of all time,what did he ever do?
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Originally Posted by Lyle
Tyson did as much as he could during his prime....better than Calzaghe has done, I mean wait until you get to the end of your career to step up to someone....what a jip.
the difference is that people don't talk about Calzaghe like they do about Tyson, it's not even close. Tyson is a legend, the question is did he do enough to deserve it, Calzaghe is no legend
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Re: TYSON,the most over rated fighter of all time,what did he ever do?
Well Calzaghe had the oppertunity...he beat Eubank (the guy who held the torch as the best nonheavyweight UK fighter) and there were numbers of people from 160-cruiser that he could have fought and showed us all he had but nope he's a chump and he fought bums and now he's gonna get his ass kicked
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Re: TYSON,the most over rated fighter of all time,what did he ever do?
that's not my point, Joe might be overrated but he's not thought of on Tyson levels, who is? Nobody but the Ali's, SRL's, Hagler's, SSR, Hearns, and Tyson, who out of that group doesn't belong there? Tyson.
and what did Tyson really do to be thought of that highly, that's the point of being overrated, you're thought of as being on a level when your accomplishments haven't proved that you've deserved to be that high
nobody thinks of Calzaghe that highly, Tyson's a freaking icon, Calzaghe couldn't be farther from that status. Neither of them have done enough to deserve it but Tyson has reached that status, that's overrated.
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Re: TYSON,the most over rated fighter of all time,what did he ever do?
of course he's 1 of the greatest-think of the past greats--which ones could actually beat him--
foreman and ali--thats it
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Re: TYSON,the most over rated fighter of all time,what did he ever do?
I agree that Tyson is somewhat overrated, he was just the most exciting.
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Re: TYSON,the most over rated fighter of all time,what did he ever do?
Tyson goes down in history, as the BADDEST MAN ON THE PLANET. He's not just a man, flesh and blood, he's an enigma, a legend, and none of us with the privelage of seeing him live on TV, win or lose, will forget it, apart from his last 2 fight ;D. Seriously, he's a legend, why does everyone on the western world know his name, plus many who live outside the brainwash culture ofTV!
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Re: TYSON,the most over rated fighter of all time,what did he ever do?
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Game
No-one had the speed, the power, the great defence etc etc that he had. He beat most of the dangermen at the time and the only way anyone lasted with him was if he was testing his own stamina or if they did the Bonecrusher style of holding 90% hitting 10% Had he been able to stay focused and stay right mentally, he would still be crushing opponents,Mike at his peak was phenomenal. A specimen. I have not seen a HW ANYWHERE near him in terms of the above mentioned attributes. Guys like Lewis who made their names of beating Tyson would not have lasted 6 rounds with peak Tyson.
  The decline began when he split from the Catskill connection, you can see how lazy he looked in the Douglas fight and coupled with Douglas being AMAZING on the night, you can see why he lost. I would not say Tyson laced testicular fortitude(it was more mental breakdown!) He showed plenty of heart in the first Holyfield fight and in the fights with Rodduck. I just wish he had remained stable and we would be discussing an all time great right now :'(
ive stayed out of this thread because im a little tired of saying the same things about tyson....
so instead :coolclick: the game for a very convincing argument...
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Re: TYSON,the most over rated fighter of all time,what did he ever do?
Watch the beyond the glory of Mike Tyson, I think that is the best documentary I have ever seen on a person and it is not biased, showing all perspectives,highly recommended. ;D
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Re: TYSON,the most over rated fighter of all time,what did he ever do?
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Game
Watch the beyond the glory of Mike Tyson, I think that is the best documentary I have ever seen on a person and it is not biased, showing all perspectives,highly recommended. ;D
Tyson just went through so much in his life! Him, Bernard Hopkins, Jermain Taylor, and Allen Iverson are a few people that just went through some hell in life and especially for Tyson, I think it was just so hard for him to handle all of the pressure.
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Re: TYSON,the most over rated fighter of all time,what did he ever do?
Yeah Doc,usually I don't really care about these famous people and their documentaries which tend all to be based around their hopeless lilly livered jellyfish lies about how they were homeless and "lived in the ghettos" etc but this time,his sis dying,mum dying,violence,abuse,Cus,Jim Jacobs,being used,mental frgaility etc etc
By the way CC for the CC you gave me earlier. ;)
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Re: TYSON,the most over rated fighter of all time,what did he ever do?
Don King, Robin Givens, Desiree Washington.. etc.
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Re: TYSON,the most over rated fighter of all time,what did he ever do?
I don 't subscribe to all the crap about Tyson being overrrated, I just think everybody has short memories and remembers him for fights when he was already a shot fighter i.e after 89. It's like remembering Ali against Holmes or Berwick. I know Tyson was still at prime age, but he was ravaged by his own demons and almost certainly drugs! What he has become should not detract from what he was and had he retired after knocking out Spinks everybody on this site would have him as a top 5 all-time heavyweight.
People will now say... who did he beat? Well who did Demsey, Louis, Marciano or Jack Johnson beat. The heavyweight division has always been dominated by one or rwo fighters who were far superior to the rest!! Apart from the Early -Mid nineties and the early seventies, I think Tyson's era is as good as as bad as any other - so I don't subscribe to the "poor opposition" argument either
Don't get me wrong, I am not a fan of the guy, but even our resident expert Mr Britkid has previously said that during the late eighties he would've had Tyson up there as one of the all-time greats, but now he doesn't. You should rank people based on their prime or else Muhammad Ali, Ray Robinson, Roy Jones, Larry Holmes, Eric Morales (and just about every other fighter that didn't know when to pack it in) is overrated!!!
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Re: TYSON,the most over rated fighter of all time,what did he ever do?
Quote:
Originally Posted by bilbo
Saying apart from being the youngest heavyweight champion in the world is just foolish...
Thats like saying aprt from breaking the 4 minute mile what did Roger Bannister do for athletics? Or apart from being the first man on the moon what did Neil Armstrong contribute to space exploration?
He was the youngest heavyweight champion (the ultimate sporting accolade) in the history of the world! Thats a f***ing great achievement and bestows greatness upon him.
Seriously his record will probably never be beaten.
now thats the cleverest thing i heard all day !! well said
what else did he do?
knocked out over 20 of his opponents in the first round now that takes some doing i challenge you to get in the ring with him now while hes old and watch what happens? tyson is a boxing legend
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Re: TYSON,the most over rated fighter of all time,what did he ever do?
Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG H
I don 't subscribe to all the crap about Tyson being overrrated, I just think everybody has short memories and remembers him for fights when he was already a shot fighter i.e after 89. It's like remembering Ali against Holmes or Berwick. I know Tyson was still at prime age, but he was ravaged by his own demons and almost certainly drugs! What he has become should not detract from what he was and had he retired after knocking out Spinks everybody on this site would have him as a top 5 all-time heavyweight.
People will now say... who did he beat? Well who did Demsey, Louis, Marciano or Jack Johnson beat. The heavyweight division has always been dominated by one or rwo fighters who were far superior to the rest!! Apart from the Early -Mid nineties and the early seventies, I think Tyson's era is as good as as bad as any other - so I don't subscribe to the "poor opposition" argument either
Don't get me wrong, I am not a fan of the guy, but even our resident expert Mr Britkid has previously said that during the late eighties he would've had Tyson up there as one of the all-time greats, but now he doesn't. You should rank people based on their prime or else Muhammad Ali, Ray Robinson, Roy Jones, Larry Holmes, Eric Morales (and just about every other fighter that didn't know when to pack it in) is overrated!!!
cc well said mate
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Re: TYSON,the most over rated fighter of all time,what did he ever do?
man it seems like this is discussed weekly. I have very mixed feelings about Tyson's placement in history. Tyson's wins are against mostly average fighters. Not that this is his fault and not that many fighters(marciano, Louis,holmes etc) don't have the same dilemma in regards to their legacy. I think quite often it wasn't who he beat but the electrifying way he did it. I often ask myself if Tyson was a defensive master who out pointed and embarrassed fighters would we feel the same way? If he was the pernell whitaker of the HW era would he have such a fan base? Tyson embodied what we as fans want in our champion. I think people quite often get wrapped up in the sheer entertainment value of Tyson. His wins over Berbick, Smith, Tucker, Ruddock, tubbs, thomas, biggs etc are impressive in that he cleaned out a division and in the manner he did them but the actual opposition is really just slightly better than average. Tyson has two great wins: the destruction of Spinks and Holmes. Although Holmes went on to several more decent wins I don't think anyone will argue that he was the same man who himself had cleaned out a division. And I don't think we will ever know why spinks gave such a sorry performance. The biggest problem with grading Tyson's career is that his "prime" was so short. He didn't face any truly good HW's in their prime until late in his career. Obviously Tyson's management decisions and personal demons had a lot to do with his decline as a fighter, but this is a part of who Tyson was as a fighter. He simply didn't have the dedication and focus of other great HW's. I look at him alot like Bowe. They both had all the skills to be ATG's but couldn't capitalize. I don't judge Tyson's career after the Lewis fighter b/c it was obvious he didn't care. That being said whether or not he came in poorly prepared he was beaten soundly by douglas, holy, and Lewis. Great fighters rise to the occasion and Tyson didn't. When he met fighters who weren't intimidated, were bigger, had a decent jab and could back him up and tie him up he was definately frustrated. Tyson is one of the greatest power punchers ever, and arguably the most exciting fighter ever. He will stand as an icon in boxing of what might of been, but in my personal oppinion not an all time great fighter .
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Re: TYSON,the most over rated fighter of all time,what did he ever do?
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Game
Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG H
I don 't subscribe to all the crap about Tyson being overrrated, I just think everybody has short memories and remembers him for fights when he was already a shot fighter i.e after 89. It's like remembering Ali against Holmes or Berwick. I know Tyson was still at prime age, but he was ravaged by his own demons and almost certainly drugs! What he has become should not detract from what he was and had he retired after knocking out Spinks everybody on this site would have him as a top 5 all-time heavyweight.
People will now say... who did he beat? Well who did Demsey, Louis, Marciano or Jack Johnson beat. The heavyweight division has always been dominated by one or rwo fighters who were far superior to the rest!! Apart from the Early -Mid nineties and the early seventies, I think Tyson's era is as good as as bad as any other - so I don't subscribe to the "poor opposition" argument either
Don't get me wrong, I am not a fan of the guy, but even our resident expert Mr Britkid has previously said that during the late eighties he would've had Tyson up there as one of the all-time greats, but now he doesn't. You should rank people based on their prime or else Muhammad Ali, Ray Robinson, Roy Jones, Larry Holmes, Eric Morales (and just about every other fighter that didn't know when to pack it in) is overrated!!!
cc well said mate
Back at ya m8 ;)
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Re: TYSON,the most over rated fighter of all time,what did he ever do?
to say tyson is overrated just shows you don't know the whole carreer of tyson...the judgement of him being overated must be coming from your personal oppinion on him...or on his late performance...this guy put boxing back on the map...the whole world knew who he was...he was the baddest man in the world...destroyed every oppenent he face...attracted more boxing fan then any heavyweights of today combine...the fight with buster...you can tell mike wasn't 100% prepared for that fight he just lost it mentally...if it weren't for don king mike would of still been in good hands and shape mentally physically etc etc...king fed him a lot of bs...in a case that mike lost focus on boxing and became more interested in expressing his mind...also the man when to prison...there was just so much destraction that took his mind out of boxing.....(converting to islam, rape case, etc....) if young tyson had never been involved with those...he would of stay focus and continue to k.o the eff outta eRrbody.....
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Re: TYSON,the most over rated fighter of all time,what did he ever do?
why is Tyson's skills and his mental issues and personal decisions always seperated? Tyson was all of those things he was a talented fighter with lots of personal demons and who made poor decisions in his personal and professional life. His skills and the person he is are not to seperate things. All of these characteristtics make up Tyson not just the ones that are positive. The world is full of talented people who for one reason or another didn't control their personal issues and utterly failed. And just b/c he was hugely popular , exciting and "put boxing back on the map" doesn't equate to being a great fighter. I think its b/c he was those things that people it often overshadows the fact that all in all compared to other great champions he wasn't as good as he is often portrayed
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Re: TYSON,the most over rated fighter of all time,what did he ever do?
Gotta laugh at the number of people going down on this guy. He started out good, but when the going got rough he crumbled. IMO mediocre at best.
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Re: TYSON,the most over rated fighter of all time,what did he ever do?
Quote:
Originally Posted by •°¤*(¯`°~Starr~°´¯)* ¤Ã‚°â€¢
What has he done?
More then Calzaghe ;)
Agreed. Tyson did go to prison & he did indeed bite of a chunk of another man's ear.
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Re: TYSON,the most over rated fighter of all time,what did he ever do?
In all truthitude...I will always think that Tyson was decent but not a GOAT.
Tyson was more of a media made mythos than anything else...sure he looked great beating up bums & nobodies...but live wires really just humiliated Tyson & he fell apart.
That's not a great fighter. Fighters like that are a dime a dozen...but you couple that with the way that he & the media painted him...you got a heavy weight star.
Simple as that. Tyson's only worthy accomplishment IWO was winning the title @ such a young age.
That's it.
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Re: TYSON,the most over rated fighter of all time,what did he ever do?
That is not all though Wack, that is the pessimistic view of it. You are telling me you have seen someone so big with so much speed,power and the bobbing/weaving was at times amazing! True,he fought bums but everyone does at the beginning of their career and you only beat who is put in front of you and that is what he did.
Yes,he crumbled but I would bet my house that had Cus D'amato,Jim Jacobs or even Kevin Rooney stayed with him until the end, we would be talking about an all time great. He just crushed his opponents,his power struck fear in to them! I guess he is slightly over rated in that we did not see the best of him for long enough but what we did see was frightening and had he carried on, I am certain he would have cleaned this generation out easily too!
He had it all,power,speed,defence and one of the best uppercuts I have ever seen.Period. O0
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Re: TYSON,the most over rated fighter of all time,what did he ever do?
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Game
That is not all though Wack, that is the pessimistic view of it. You are telling me you have seen someone so big with so much speed,power and the bobbing/weaving was at times amazing! True,he fought bums but everyone does at the beginning of their career and you only beat who is put in front of you and that is what he did.
  Yes,he crumbled but I would bet my house that had Cus D'amato,Jim Jacobs or even Kevin Rooney stayed with him until the end, we would be talking about an all time great. He just crushed his opponents,his power struck fear in to them! I guess he is slightly over rated in that we did not see the best of him for long enough but what we did see was frightening and had he carried on, I am certain he would have cleaned this generation out easily too!
  He had it all,power,speed,defence and one of the best uppercuts I have ever seen.Period. O0
right on dude!!! 8)
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Re: TYSON,the most over rated fighter of all time,what did he ever do?
;D Dam straight bro :coolclick: for agreeing,glad you see the light. O0
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Re: TYSON,the most over rated fighter of all time,what did he ever do?
once again a thread to bash Tyson...
yes this guy was a fraud for you that's why he has a astonishing pedigree.
That's why people talks about evander as the man who beat Tyson (if Tyson is so bad why is it THE reference for Evander?)
That's why everybody knows the name of Tyson
That's why the boxers and people who knows boxing knew that Tyson was really really gifted and an awesome machine who went wrong at some points.
That's Why Ali (which is mentionned as the greatest by Porky) always praised Tyson's skills
My favortie quote is "Green showed the limit if Tyson" dam if getting the beating of your life during 10 rounds is equal to performing well ^^
Ok I guess that I'm too tired, but another subject on that topic...about someone who won the title at 20 and unified the tittle....
Not the greatest, not the underrated clubfighter you wanna try to demonstrate neither.