Yes or No.
Explain why or why not.
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Yes or No.
Explain why or why not.
Yes, wlad has said he wants that WBC belt more than anything. He also has no plans to retire yet and he's still fit and healthy. He's also looking at beating Joe Louis record. So I don't expect him to go anyway. The only two people who have a chance realistically against him right now are fury or wilder.
I'll start it off.
I voted "no". If Wilder mows down the likes of Fury, and maybe an Arreola... and does it in super-impressive fashion.... I think Wlad develops a case of the yips and decides to retire. He's had a long career.... he's done everything there is to do in boxing.... he wants to join his brother in politics..... yadda-yadda-yadda.
Oops, sorry Tam..... beat me to the punch.
I don't think what Wilder does will influence Wlad one iota. Why would it ? Like Tam said he has stated that he wants to unify and while Wilder has that belt then that is the fight he will seek. You can call Wlad a lot of things but a bottler is not one of them. I f Wilder beats Fury then it would be no great shock. Below Wlad there is a big chasm
and then everyone else. Don't really understand your thinking on this one.
beautiful post ... Wlad has fought enough and is not young anymore. He dont need to risk no title to fight a young Lion.Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFan
He'll stick around for him. In the last 10 years of Wlad's reign he has taken on all comers, big and small. I think it's unfair to claim he would be afraid and dodge a challenge, because he hasn't really given us any reason to believe he would bitch out like that. He's fought a lot of dangerous guys at the top of their game, I don't think he'd duck Wilder.
Nah, Wilder himself has wisely stated that his belt doesn't mean anything until he beats "the" champion. Unless he was being exceptionally humble I'd have more questions about him if he waited 3 fights...a year plus...before sitting on Wlads front porch and getting in his face.
No, Wlad will not duck a Wilder ;D
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenbeanz
Elementary, my dear Watson.
Wlad has fought mostly a procession of mediocre, underachieving opponents.... who in all actuality have posed little threat to him. Povetkin was probably the lone exception as of late, and we all saw how Wlad treated Povetkin (aided by the generous ref).
If Wilder were to wipe out (emphasis on the wiping out part) Fury and another opponent, such as Arreola, who among the riff-raff are two of the more respectable opponents out there..... it would go a long way toward cementing Wilder's status as not just another hard hitting bum, but as a real threat to Wlad and his chin. Remember, Wilder's got the height and reach to match Wlad.
Wlad is already in what we'd call the twilight of his career. It's been a long, victory-filled career. So the thinking is... "Why chance it?" Why tempt fate for one more reach for the gold ring?
I think he'll stay. The guy is a rock. I was really down on him after the pov fight, it was almost disrespectful to boxing but I got over that and really appreciate the guy. I don't think he'll walk away if Wilder continues his winning ways. Perhaps this is more wishful thinking on my part as I would love to see the two fight. I'd love to see Wilder become the champ but Wlad knows how to win fights, even if it's a bit ugly in the process. An American heavyweight champ might give boxing a shot in the arm in the US.
I'm starting to get the feeling you're not keen on the big guyQuote:
Originally Posted by TitoFanQuote:
Originally Posted by Greenbeanz
Elementary, my dear Watson.
Wlad has fought mostly a procession of mediocre, underachieving opponents.... who in all actuality have posed little threat to him. Povetkin was probably the lone exception as of late, and we all saw how Wlad treated Povetkin (aided by the generous ref).
If Wilder were to wipe out (emphasis on the wiping out part) Fury and another opponent, such as Arreola, who among the riff-raff are two of the more respectable opponents out there..... it would go a long way toward cementing Wilder's status as not just another hard hitting bum, but as a real threat to Wlad and his chin. Remember, Wilder's got the height and reach to match Wlad.
Wlad is already in what we'd call the twilight of his career. It's been a long, victory-filled career. So the thinking is... "Why chance it?" Why tempt fate for one more reach for the gold ring?
There is absolutely no reason to question Wlad
After Wlad and Wilder's next fights they should fight... Wlad does not have to wait and should not have to wait.
If Wladimir was afraid of losing/getting knocked out, then he would have retired after the Brewster loss instead of going after the most dangerous power punching heavyweight on the rise at the time (Sam Peter). No Deontay Wilder is not anything like Sam Peter style wise, but he's young, he's on the rise, he's got big power, and he's undefeated.....much like a lot of the guys on Wlad's record already.
If it makes you feel better to HOPE for Wlad to retire that's fine, but he will unify, he will fight Wilder, and Wlad will win by KO...I don't need a crystal ball to know that will happen.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeanflickerI'm starting to get the feeling you're not keen on the big guyQuote:
Originally Posted by TitoFanQuote:
Originally Posted by Greenbeanz
Elementary, my dear Watson.
Wlad has fought mostly a procession of mediocre, underachieving opponents.... who in all actuality have posed little threat to him. Povetkin was probably the lone exception as of late, and we all saw how Wlad treated Povetkin (aided by the generous ref).
If Wilder were to wipe out (emphasis on the wiping out part) Fury and another opponent, such as Arreola, who among the riff-raff are two of the more respectable opponents out there..... it would go a long way toward cementing Wilder's status as not just another hard hitting bum, but as a real threat to Wlad and his chin. Remember, Wilder's got the height and reach to match Wlad.
Wlad is already in what we'd call the twilight of his career. It's been a long, victory-filled career. So the thinking is... "Why chance it?" Why tempt fate for one more reach for the gold ring?
I give him his just dues. He's big, strong, athletic. He always keeps himself in shape, which in itself is a great accomplishment nowadays (I'm not much into big, blubbery heavyweights with man boobs). He's fought everyone they've put in front of him (not exactly his fault that the term "everyone" here includes a bunch of bums), and as far as I know he's never ducked anyone. He's an intelligent, well-spoken, articulate fighter... an excellent ambassador to the sport. (Again, I'd much rather hear Wlad speak, than the slurring Bowe or Toney). That's a lot of just dues, ain't it?
Howeverrrrr...........
What I've always held against Wlad is what a lot of fans hold against him, even if they don't voice it. Ever since the early knockout losses in his career, Wlad has completely adopted a style of fighting which emphasizes (and only emphasizes) protecting his chin above everything else. Before the chorus of "the point of boxing is to be hit without getting hit" begins..... let me point out that the whole premise of boxing is to actually engage the other guy and try to knock him out. If not, let's change the name of the game to shadowboxing and see who does it better in the ring. Protecting your chin can be your first priority. But when it becomes your ONLY priority, that's when many fans lose interest.
Wlad has had enough stinkers in his career that to me, it demonstrates that he'll use whatever means necessary to avoid getting his chin grazed. This includes pawing for 12 rounds, clutching, mauling, leaning on his opponents, fouling..... whatever. If it makes for an insufferable spectacle, so be it.
His opponents haven't helped the cause, either. Before Wlad, EVERY heavyweight champion you can imagine was taken into deep waters once or twice by an opponent wanting to fight and win.... not just to share a ring with the champion for 12 or 15 rounds. ..... and the champion has risen to the challenge, and put his stamp on his career. Yeah... so-and-so went down and was in trouble several times, but came back to snatch victory from the jaws of defeat. We fans love our classic, epic battles. How many epic battles has Wlad been in?
Maybe if he hadn't suffered those embarrassing losses early in his career we would've seen a different Wlad throughout the years. A more exciting, engaging Wlad. His fanbase is pretty big now... but imagine how much more popular he would've been in the States. .... and to those who'll say Stateside fans won't get behind a European champion, think again. If I remember correctly, Lennox Lewis drew a lot more interest in the States than does Wlad. Lennox was a great champion, even though he too suffered a couple of KO losses. What did he do? He came back, better than before. ..... AND.... he came back to avenge his KO losses. Lennox didn't become a gun-shy, reluctant-to-engage champion, right?
So no.... although I give Wlad his just dues.... I'm not really that keen on the big guy.
That's your right to not like Wlad, but...
" let me point out that the whole premise of boxing is to actually engage the other guy and try to knock him out"
...it has to be pointed out that Wlad has 53 KO's in 63 victories. Joe Louis had 52 KO's in 66 victories, for reference.
So if the whole premise of boxing is to engage and try to knock your opponent out, Wlad has done a better job of it than just about any HW champ outside of George Foreman. Technically, he has a higher KO percentage than Mike Tyson.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beanflicker
You're right, Bean. Stats are stats... and that one is right there to be seen. Notice I haven't once said Wlad isn't a great HW, nor that he shouldn't one day be in the HOF. My beef is strictly style-related... and I think Wlad, as great as he is, could've been so much more popular (especially in the U.S.), and maybe have risen a notch or two in the final assessment of the greatest HW's in history. For the reasons I stated before, it is my personal opinion that he's going to be slightly shortchanged in public opinion when all is said and done.
That's cool. I'm not Wlad's PR guy so it's not my job to make people like the guy. I'm not a huge fan of him myself, I don't get excited for his fights like I would a Pacquaio, Kovalev, GGG, LEMIEUX, ect.
I just gotta give the guy his due: he doesn't get hit, and more often than not he closes the show on his opponent. Can't ask for much more from a guy.
Still...... what better way to close out a career than against a two-handed banger like Wilder.... IF..... and that's a huge IF..... Wilder develops into the kind of complete fighter nobody so far thinks he will be. 'Cause as opposed to the naysayers who will never give Wilder his due.... I give him full credit for his systematic dismantling of Bermane Stiverne. Two more of those showings, especially if Wilder is taken into the later rounds..... and I think we have a potential "cherry on the top" type of fight for Wladimir Klitschko.
Who are Wilder's "naysayers"?
Is it more important to win fights or fans? Shortchanged in public opinion....yeah I'm sure that Wlad will cry himself to sleep every night on his bed of money which he shares with a young Hollywood actress....oh the horror that awaits him in retirement :shakehead:Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFan
Wlad was only ONE OF the Greats, not THE Greatest....he threw it all away because he wouldn't fight in a style that shortened his career and gave his opponents a better opportunity to beat him.....he just threw it all away :rolleyes:
Should be said too that Wlad doesn't really have the incentive to be more exciting that guys in America do, because he has a dedicated fan base in Germany where he'll make millions per fight and people will flock to the arenas to see him regardless of whether or not he fights in an exciting fashion or not. As far as I know the German's who go to see him aren't complaining and really they are the ones paying his salary, so what else can you do?
Pride alone would mean Wlad would stay and make sure he beats Wilder because everyone will think he was scared at the first genuine opponent as champion.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekQ_Ja02gTYQuote:
Originally Posted by Master
:shakehead:
The sarcasm always comes out, don't it? :D
See below.
Quote:
Originally Posted by El KabongIs it more important to win fights or fans? Shortchanged in public opinion....yeah I'm sure that Wlad will cry himself to sleep every night on his bed of money which he shares with a young Hollywood actress....oh the horror that awaits him in retirement :shakehead:Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFan
As a boxing fan who presumably enjoys action-filled, exciting fights..... does it really matter to you one way or another whether Wlad has a bed of money or that he shares it with a young Hollywood actress? It's not like you're getting a commission..... Most of us couldn't give a rat's ass what Wlad's lifestyle is, or will be after he retires. I only care about the way he fights.
Wlad was only ONE OF the Greats, not THE Greatest....he threw it all away because he wouldn't fight in a style that shortened his career and gave his opponents a better opportunity to beat him.....he just threw it all away :rolleyes:
Again..... are those my only two choices? Fight like a scared deer, protecting that glass chin...... or rush in recklessly in a way that will shorten his career?? So there's nothing in the middle?? Hmmm..... this boxing sport is weird, ain't it?
Arguments with you are fine, until you start treading that ridiculousness line.
Then it all goes to shit.
You completely missed the first point while stating EXACTLY the way Wlad feels...bravo, well done. The point being Wlad's the champion he's in the ring, he's the one with the belts, he's the one doing the fighting, why the hell should he give 1 single solitary damn about your opinion? Wlad packs stadiums without the help of these so called boxing fans you mention who "hate his style". Wlad will fight in the manner that best suits him and if you look at his record this style suits him just fine.Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFanThe sarcasm always comes out, don't it? :D
See below.
Quote:
Originally Posted by El KabongIs it more important to win fights or fans? Shortchanged in public opinion....yeah I'm sure that Wlad will cry himself to sleep every night on his bed of money which he shares with a young Hollywood actress....oh the horror that awaits him in retirement :shakehead:Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFan
As a boxing fan who presumably enjoys action-filled, exciting fights..... does it really matter to you one way or another whether Wlad has a bed of money or that he shares it with a young Hollywood actress? It's not like you're getting a commission..... Most of us couldn't give a rat's ass what Wlad's lifestyle is, or will be after he retires. I only care about the way he fights.
Wlad was only ONE OF the Greats, not THE Greatest....he threw it all away because he wouldn't fight in a style that shortened his career and gave his opponents a better opportunity to beat him.....he just threw it all away :rolleyes:
Again..... are those my only two choices? Fight like a scared deer, protecting that glass chin...... or rush in recklessly in a way that will shorten his career?? So there's nothing in the middle?? Hmmm..... this boxing sport is weird, ain't it?
Arguments with you are fine, until you start treading that ridiculousness line.
Then it all goes to shit.
You're very quick to toss around that "fight scared" line ABOUT THE HEAVYWEIGHT CHAMPION OF THE WORLD....just sit back for a second and think about that. Think about a guy who has an Olympic Gold medal, has been champion multiple times, is the 3rd longest reigning heavyweight champion in the history of the sport, has stopped 53 fighters in 63 wins.....yet to YOU Wlad fights "scared".
.....do much professional boxing Titofan? Ever done any amateur boxing? If you have maybe you'll recall that it isn't the easiest thing to do. My point is we all have our strengths and weaknesses, and Wlad has learned about himself, maximized his strengths and limited his weaknesses and in doing so he has become one of the greatest heavyweight champions in the history of the sport.....all without your support...I know, it's truly shocking
Wlad fights scared in the sense that he could finish fights a lot quicker but waits for his opponent to show no sign of resistance before he moves for the stoppage. It is clear to see.
He finished Pulev off quick because he was rattled to his toes by the jab in the first round.
....is it just me or does anyone else see a complete disconnect between paragraph 1 and paragraph 2 here?Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
Just you. The one fight he looked impressive and went for it was because he was in deep trouble from the the first jab that Pulev threw that rocked Wlad.Quote:
Originally Posted by El Kabong....is it just me or does anyone else see a complete disconnect between paragraph 1 and paragraph 2 here?Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
Wlad impressively went on his toes and to find his legs and regain his composure but knew he had to take out Pulev otherwise he would be stopped like he was against Saunders.
Quote:
Originally Posted by El KabongYou completely missed the first point while stating EXACTLY the way Wlad feels...bravo, well done. The point being Wlad's the champion he's in the ring, he's the one with the belts, he's the one doing the fighting, why the hell should he give 1 single solitary damn about your opinion? Wlad packs stadiums without the help of these so called boxing fans you mention who "hate his style". Wlad will fight in the manner that best suits him and if you look at his record this style suits him just fine.Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFanThe sarcasm always comes out, don't it? :D
See below.
Quote:
Originally Posted by El KabongIs it more important to win fights or fans? Shortchanged in public opinion....yeah I'm sure that Wlad will cry himself to sleep every night on his bed of money which he shares with a young Hollywood actress....oh the horror that awaits him in retirement :shakehead:Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFan
As a boxing fan who presumably enjoys action-filled, exciting fights..... does it really matter to you one way or another whether Wlad has a bed of money or that he shares it with a young Hollywood actress? It's not like you're getting a commission..... Most of us couldn't give a rat's ass what Wlad's lifestyle is, or will be after he retires. I only care about the way he fights.
Wlad was only ONE OF the Greats, not THE Greatest....he threw it all away because he wouldn't fight in a style that shortened his career and gave his opponents a better opportunity to beat him.....he just threw it all away :rolleyes:
Again..... are those my only two choices? Fight like a scared deer, protecting that glass chin...... or rush in recklessly in a way that will shorten his career?? So there's nothing in the middle?? Hmmm..... this boxing sport is weird, ain't it?
Arguments with you are fine, until you start treading that ridiculousness line.
Then it all goes to shit.
You're very quick to toss around that "fight scared" line ABOUT THE HEAVYWEIGHT CHAMPION OF THE WORLD....just sit back for a second and think about that. Think about a guy who has an Olympic Gold medal, has been champion multiple times, is the 3rd longest reigning heavyweight champion in the history of the sport, has stopped 53 fighters in 63 wins.....yet to YOU Wlad fights "scared".
.....do much professional boxing Titofan? Ever done any amateur boxing? If you have maybe you'll recall that it isn't the easiest thing to do. My point is we all have our strengths and weaknesses, and Wlad has learned about himself, maximized his strengths and limited his weaknesses and in doing so he has become one of the greatest heavyweight champions in the history of the sport.....all without your support...I know, it's truly shocking
No.... never done any boxing. I guess that disqualifies me from having an opinion on Wladimir's boxing style.
Well.... without my support isn't technically correct. I've probably been responsible for at least one-billionth of his earnings.
Yes.... Wlad does fight scared. But don't take my word for it. Read another very good analysis/ description provided in the other Wlad thread. There's a difference between clinching strategically, in between offensive flurries...... and clinching out of fear, and only going on the attack when the other guy has negative 20% chance of hitting back.
I hope this helps.
So here we have a man that through hard word, intelligence and discipline has made himself into the best boxer in the world. I know many will say "but Floyd Mayweather...." But to put Floyd in the same ring you have to use all these magical qualifiers. Nuts and bolts, there is not a man on this planet that Wlad Klitschko isn't favored significantly over right now if they step into a ring.so he is the best.
And boxing fans think it is reasonable to say "yes, this is the best boxer on this planet, his style beats any other man that gets inthe ring, but I don't like how it looks so he should fight different". It's absolutely amazing what a person can convince themself is reasonable.
I don't agree with this, I think he was more aggresive than usual against pulev due to it being the start of his short hbo contract and he needs to put on a show for the americans to push for the wbc unification as soon as possible, pulev is not a big hitter so he went for him, I think it's the same plan with the jennings fight.. I would guess wladimir wants to take on these lighter punching guys so he can safely go for earlier than usual kosQuote:
Originally Posted by Master
Watch the first seconds of the fight and you will see. If Wlad had to stink the fight he would. He had the HBO contract signed, sealed and delivered anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by palmerqI don't agree with this, I think he was more aggresive than usual against pulev due to it being the start of his short hbo contract and he needs to put on a show for the americans to push for the wbc unification as soon as possible, pulev is not a big hitter so he went for him, I think it's the same plan with the jennings fight.. I would guess wladimir wants to take on these lighter punching guys so he can safely go for earlier than usual kosQuote:
Originally Posted by Master
Really? Everyone is saying "Wlad fights scared" and you're saying "Wlad KO'd Pulev early because Pulev hurt him"Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFcL71e20lI
Also the HBO deal is for 3 fights, now 2 are left and of course I believe he wanted to impress this time out, he knew he had a guy in front of him that he could take and he did it. ALSO Pulev talked a bunch of shit before the fight and was very disrespectful and you can see Wlad was very pleased with himself that he KO'd him that showing of emotion when Pulev was getting counted out isn't something usually seen from Wlad.
But hey, you guys like who you want to like and hate all you want on Wlad it doesn't change how great of a champion he is.
I don't think he fights scared. To me, "fighting scared" is fighting to survive: to not care about winning, just to stay upright. I would say David Haye and Ibragimov fought scared against Wlad. They were losing the fight, they knew they were losing the fight, yet they refused to take the risks necessary to try to win, they were happy with going the distance.
If you're winning the fight and you're fighting conservatively, that's called fighting smart. Floyd, Wlad, Rigo, Ward, ect don't fight scared, they fight smart.
I actually do agree with you, I think Wlad probably did get more aggressive because Pulev was landing that jab on him. I guess where we differ is that I don't think that's a bad thing. Isn't it a smart play to be able to say "this guy is bothering me, I better turn the heat up on him and get him out of there quick." The great Mike McCallum did exactly that to Julian Jackson: he planned to box, Julian touched him with his cement hands and really shook McCallum to his core, and McCallum thought "holy shit, I need to take this guy out quick because I've never felt that kind of power before". It's making adjustments of the fly, I don't see why it's a knock on Wlad.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
Pulev has a fantastic jab IMO, seeing him land it on Wlad early I really thought it was going to be a close, competitive fight.
There's the objective posters, who are willing to discuss some of Wlad's shortcomings, regardless of how successful he's been and how many beds of money he has or how many Hollywood actresses are hanging off his arms.... and then there's Lyle.
Lyle, why do you get so defensive about Wlad? Especially considering that everything is prefaced with: "Yes, he's has a great career, has defended his title numerous times, is articulate and intelligent, is a nice guy, walks on water never mind..... strike that one.
Drop the sarcasm and learn to discuss things civilly, man.
You're absolutely right, but you may as well talk to a wall because everyone wants Wlad to go for broke every fight apparently....up 11 rounds to 0....go knock the guy out. Knocking the guy down? Well go KO him right now. 1st round, go for the KO!Quote:
Originally Posted by Beanflicker
Wlad made mistakes in his losses that is why he lost specifically because he made mistakes. He's corrected those and hasn't come close to losing since then. The complaints have increased regardless of the outcomes of his fights which tells me people are just tired of him dominating the division. Wlad went for the kill vs Pulev.....did he get any respect? Did any of the Negative Nancy's out there say "You know, Wlad really ended that fight with an exclamation point for once".....no, they just start talking up the next victim be it Wilder or Fury or whoever. "Will Wlad hang around or retire if he has to fight Wilder"....it's ridiculous. Deontay Wilder is a good fighter, a good up and coming fighter, big power, but we're jumping from the likes of Malik Scott, Jason Gavern, and Nicolai Firtha to Bermane Stiverne to Wladimir Klitschko....that is one extremely steep learning curve for Wilder. Wlad has had about 10 years of fighting THE BEST the division has to offer.
"Wlad's scared, he fights scared"....he's had 66 professional fights the majority of which have been at an ELITE LEVEL and he's "scared" you're morons!
Just rewatched the Wlad-Pulev fight and my overriding impression is that Pulev fought like shit. Undefeated?? Hell, no wonder the division is such a pile of shit right now! Pulev was done from Round 1, when he came out with that amateurish stance, wide open and just begging for a right cross or a left hook. Personally, I can't wait for Wlad-Wilder down the road, 'cause I'm sure Wilder will do more than just make Wlad break into a sweat.
How about you just take some time and understand that Wladimir fought and fought well for a period of time utilizing the tactics you (and the rest of those who dislike him) want him to use. Wlad fought in a crouch, threw numerous punches, and didn't give a shit at all for defense. That's how Wlad fought from the start of his career up to his hiring of Manny Steward.Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoFan
There were weaknesses in Wlad's game, not so much to where he couldn't be a contender or hold a title, but enough to make it harder for him to have continued success. Wlad now fights in a manner which A) Minimizes damage he takes and B ) Maximizes damage he inflicts.....is "just winning" not enough? He fights in a style that takes his opponent out of the fight early on and frustrates them...instead of complaining about that perhaps as BOXING FANS you should appreciate it.
Not everyone can fight like Tyson, or Frazier, or Foreman and they shouldn't be expected to.