Roberto Duran vs Julio Cesar Chavez @ Lightweight

I've been watching both their fights lately and am in awe of two things.

How, despite the obvious lulls in interest during the early to mid 80's, Duran managed to always improve as a boxer. How raw he was as a young man and how refined he was a middleweight is astonishing.

Also, I was not aware of Chavez' movement and defensive ability, as a young man. I always thought he was a typical brawler/ slugger type with will and power but jeez the guy had smarts and timing and the sort of arsenal that would make any army's front line retreat.

I see these two almost as polar opposites in that Chavez was a lot better (IMO) the lighter he was, where as you could argue that Duran got better as fighters round him got slower and heavier in hand and foot.

I never really considered a fight between the two as I assumed Duran was a lot bigger than Chavez but I see a lot of things in his work that leads me to believe that
A) he ain't getting floored by Duran
B) he isn't getting outworked by Duran (not at least in the mid-late rounds).
C) he isn't getting out manoeuvred by Duran

So it would have been a very VERY close and exciting fight.

JCC outpoints him in 12 and definitely in 15.

Duran every day of the week and twice on Sundays.

It's a pick em fight for sure... I'd probably put my money on JCC by decision though. Duran was much more technical but JCC was a force of nature. It's anybody's fight though IMO.

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Originally Posted by Jimanuel Boogustus

So it would have been a very VERY close and exciting fight.

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Yeah I think you're right on the money there. Neither guy is going to dominate the other, I think this one would come down to the difference of a few rounds on the scorecards. I think the height and reach of both guys is identical. I'd give a slight power advantage to JCC, the skill advantage to Duran and the chin advantage to JCC, but of course neither guy was lacking in any of those categories.

Would have been a great fight, I think that's the only thing we could know for sure.

Duran was an absolute BEAST at lightweight, with two very heavy hands, which rained punches on his opponents from every angle imaginable. His stamina was beyond belief. Duran fought angry, like a wild animal against someone trying to take away his food. There's no way in hell Chavez could've hung in there against Duran.

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

Duran was an absolute BEAST at lightweight, with two very heavy hands, which rained punches on his opponents from every angle imaginable. His stamina was beyond belief. Duran fought angry, like a wild animal against someone trying to take away his food. There's no way in hell Chavez could've hung in there against Duran.

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All the things you said about Duran (which are true) could also be said about JCC. Duran was one of the greatest LW's of all time no doubt, but he wasn't invincible. De Jesus dropped him twice and of course beat him once. Lesser guys have hung with Duran at LW. Viruet had success against him. It's not like he was rolling over everybody with the greatest of ease (besides the "enhancement" guys, and let's face it, JCC rolled over plenty of those guys himself).

Stylistically, JCC is a tough night for anybody. Duran didn't have the evasive slickster skills of a Pernell Whitaker. Duran would have to fight JCC head on, and even if he won the fight in the end, he was going to get hit and he was going to lose rounds. JCC was also relentless, had an unbreakable will and one of the greatest chins of all time, huge power in both hands, and dug to the body like a champ. There's no way Duran is rolling over JCC at LW. It's a tough, competitive fight no matter how you slice it.

Phone booth war , you would have to piss yourself , because no way are you going to the can during this 15 rounder !!!!!!!

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Originally Posted by Beanflicker

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

Duran was an absolute BEAST at lightweight, with two very heavy hands, which rained punches on his opponents from every angle imaginable. His stamina was beyond belief. Duran fought angry, like a wild animal against someone trying to take away his food. There's no way in hell Chavez could've hung in there against Duran.

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All the things you said about Duran (which are true) could also be said about JCC. Duran was one of the greatest LW's of all time no doubt, but he wasn't invincible. De Jesus dropped him twice and of course beat him once. Lesser guys have hung with Duran at LW. Viruet had success against him. It's not like he was rolling over everybody with the greatest of ease (besides the "enhancement" guys, and let's face it, JCC rolled over plenty of those guys himself).

Stylistically, JCC is a tough night for anybody. Duran didn't have the evasive slickster skills of a Pernell Whitaker. Duran would have to fight JCC head on, and even if he won the fight in the end, he was going to get hit and he was going to lose rounds. JCC was also relentless, had an unbreakable will and one of the greatest chins of all time, huge power in both hands, and dug to the body like a champ. There's no way Duran is rolling over JCC at LW. It's a tough, competitive fight no matter how you slice it.

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No, Duran wasn't invincible. Esteban De Jesus was a great champion himself, with a great left hook, which he used to floor Duran twice. Edwin Viruet was a handful, no slouch himself. Other than that, Duran found very little resistance at lightweight.

Chavez's best work, in the 2nd half of his career, was mostly at super lightweight. Not saying that's a huge factor.... it's not. Chavez was relentless... no doubt about that. He was known for his killer body work. I wouldn't compare his one-punch power to Duran... I believe Duran has the clear edge there.

In short, yes it would be a competitive and very entertaining fight. But IMO, if they fight 10 times, Duran takes it 8 or 9 out of those times. He was just that good.

With all due respect to Chavez, I doubt he beats anyone in the top 20 all time let alone Duran. He was very good at 135 but spent about a minute there. I think he gets carved up.

I'm not saying De Jesus or Viruet were slouches, but they weren't JCC quality. Duran fought a lot of bums in his LW run as well, over in Panama and even over in the States. There are a lot of very unmemorable names on that LW resume (as is the case for JCC too).

Style vs style it's a very close match up. Duran was great but I just don't think he was that good to where he would dominate JCC. I'm not doubting that Duran could win, but JCC is a tough match for anyone at that weight.

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

With all due respect to Chavez, I doubt he beats anyone in the top 20 all time let alone Duran. He was very good at 135 but spent about a minute there. I think he gets carved up.

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I love the school of thought that, when questioning who would win a hypothetical match up, one must consult the big book of rankings and see who is ranked highest of all time by the consensus of boxing fans. Styles, physical attributes be damned. Fighter A is the #3 of all time, Fighter B is the #7 of all time, so what chance could Fighter B possibly have? It's one of the dumbest things I see on these forums. It boggles my mind.

Why do people talk about weight classes like it's a separate job? Like lightweight is fire-fighting and light-welterweight is criminal law. Well, fighter A was a fire fighter for 10 years, fighter B was a fire fighter for 2 years and then moved on to criminal law, so obviously Fighter A is a better fire fighter. LOL, do people realize that weight classes are arbitrary weight limits set to protect smaller guys from bigger guys? And that, regardless of weight, you're doing the same job? A guy who was great at 130, 140, and 147 (Mayweather for example) would have been great at 135. Who gives a shit who fought longer at the arbitrary weight limit? What matters is the fighters and the clash of styles and skill.

Duran, the guy was just too damn good at lightweight

I love JCC he was my favourite Mexican fighter and was such an underrated skilled fighter who broke down opponents piece by piece.

Duran was just too durable, relentless, brutal and quick. Total package.

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Originally Posted by Beanflicker

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

With all due respect to Chavez, I doubt he beats anyone in the top 20 all time let alone Duran. He was very good at 135 but spent about a minute there. I think he gets carved up.

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I love the school of thought that, when questioning who would win a hypothetical match up, one must consult the big book of rankings and see who is ranked highest of all time by the consensus of boxing fans. Styles, physical attributes be damned. Fighter A is the #3 of all time, Fighter B is the #7 of all time, so what chance could Fighter B possibly have? It's one of the dumbest things I see on these forums. It boggles my mind.

Why do people talk about weight classes like it's a separate job? Like lightweight is fire-fighting and light-welterweight is criminal law. Well, fighter A was a fire fighter for 10 years, fighter B was a fire fighter for 2 years and then moved on to criminal law, so obviously Fighter A is a better fire fighter. LOL, do people realize that weight classes are arbitrary weight limits set to protect smaller guys from bigger guys? And that, regardless of weight, you're doing the same job? A guy who was great at 130, 140, and 147 (Mayweather for example) would have been great at 135. Who gives a shit who fought longer at the arbitrary weight limit? What matters is the fighters and the clash of styles and skill.

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I never consulted squat. I never needed to. He's just not that good a lightweight and is also one of the most overrated fighters of all time. And there is taped evidence that you can even watch. If you think he beats Duran that's your problem and not mine for thinking its laughable.

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

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Originally Posted by Beanflicker

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

With all due respect to Chavez, I doubt he beats anyone in the top 20 all time let alone Duran. He was very good at 135 but spent about a minute there. I think he gets carved up.

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I love the school of thought that, when questioning who would win a hypothetical match up, one must consult the big book of rankings and see who is ranked highest of all time by the consensus of boxing fans. Styles, physical attributes be damned. Fighter A is the #3 of all time, Fighter B is the #7 of all time, so what chance could Fighter B possibly have? It's one of the dumbest things I see on these forums. It boggles my mind.

Why do people talk about weight classes like it's a separate job? Like lightweight is fire-fighting and light-welterweight is criminal law. Well, fighter A was a fire fighter for 10 years, fighter B was a fire fighter for 2 years and then moved on to criminal law, so obviously Fighter A is a better fire fighter. LOL, do people realize that weight classes are arbitrary weight limits set to protect smaller guys from bigger guys? And that, regardless of weight, you're doing the same job? A guy who was great at 130, 140, and 147 (Mayweather for example) would have been great at 135. Who gives a shit who fought longer at the arbitrary weight limit? What matters is the fighters and the clash of styles and skill.

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I never consulted squat. I never needed to. He's just not that good a lightweight and is also one of the most overrated fighters of all time. And there is taped evidence that you can even watch. If you think he beats Duran that's your problem and not mine for thinking its laughable.

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I normally agree with you but Chavez was not over rated.

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

With all due respect to Chavez, I doubt he beats anyone in the top 20 all time let alone Duran. He was very good at 135 but spent about a minute there. I think he gets carved up.

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It's true. Chavez didn't spend much time at lightweight. But in his few fights there he managed to beat a faded Bazooka Limon. A highly touted prospect (at that time) Rodolfo Aguilar. Unifies the WBC and WBA against Jose Luis Ramirez. And proved his toughness when he dismantled and took the heart of Edwin Rosario.

Jose Luis Ramirez. THAT'S another fighter I'm high on at the minute. Had a very close fights with Arguello and Whittaker (first time round) and his rematch with Rosario is just mind boggling.

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Originally Posted by Master

I normally agree with you but Chavez was not over rated.

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Be a drag if we all agreed all the time. Although he had some tremendous outings I think its a classic case of an agreed upon assumption by many that he's the best Mexican fighter that ever lived and I just dont see it that way. Not even close. Again he has been in some great fights but this involves 135 and him being pitted against perhaps the greatest lightweight that ever lived.

Lets see other then;

Duran being a much better boxer
A much better puncher generally like selection
A dominant lightweight
With much better footwork
A much better jab
Much more power
Noticeably faster
Superior defense
Superior head movement
Only beaten once in about 65 fights at 135 and in a fight he was finishing strong in.

oh and Duran never needed a loss changed to a win or an obvious drubbing called a draw to preserve an already false 0.

Other then those facts that are self evident imo to anyone who has watched the two, yeah its an even matchup.

Chavez was a different boxer at light than he was later. Had some toes and moved well. But Duran was also different and a pinnacle lightweight best whenever the conversation kicks off. Duran had far more gears.

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Originally Posted by TitoFan

Duran every day of the week and twice on Sundays.

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yes I definitely agree with that. Duran had a mental edge as well. He had a savageness that Chavez could not match. it would be Duran's toughest fight of all time but he would win.

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

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Originally Posted by Master

I normally agree with you but Chavez was not over rated.

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Be a drag if we all agreed all the time. Although he had some tremendous outings I think its a classic case of an agreed upon assumption by many that he's the best Mexican fighter that ever lived and I just dont see it that way. Not even close. Again he has been in some great fights but this involves 135 and him being pitted against perhaps the greatest lightweight that ever lived.

Lets see other then;

Duran being a much better boxer
A much better puncher generally like selection
A dominant lightweight
With much better footwork
A much better jab
Much more power
Noticeably faster
Superior defense
Superior head movement
Only beaten once in about 65 fights at 135 and in a fight he was finishing strong in.

oh and Duran never needed a loss changed to a win or an obvious drubbing called a draw to preserve an already false 0.

Other then those facts that are self evident imo to anyone who has watched the two, yeah its an even matchup.

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That is cold to bring up what happened after near the end of his career. Duran quit and that is the worst thing a fighter could ever do.

I personally have never rated Chavez until watching him recently and if anything, I think some of his earlier work gets overlooked (because I have never personally seen it mentioned).

Duran fought with far more ferocity than Chavez, who (pre 90's) IMO was not an emotional fighter at all. Was far more cold faced/ calculated.

I would agree that across the span of his career, Duran showed he was a better boxer and more variation but round for round, looking at one fight at a time, I think he wasn't that dynamic. He either box/punched or savaged. Of course, I'm not saying that he didn't do this well.

What I'm saying is that at lightweight, he was more prone to slip jabs, catch jabs (leaving himself open to left-hooks), get low/ get inside and attack in straight lines. He learned to circle and jab more himself towards the late 70's but I think that against Chavez, he would be Mr. Macho kill, kill, kill and Chavez would have the opportunity to be smart. Use some aggressive lateral movement to open up and kill the body a little. Probably taking the middle rounds. Later on you would probably have to favour Duran (as a 15 round fighter) but who knows?

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Originally Posted by Master

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Originally Posted by IamInuit

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Originally Posted by Master

I normally agree with you but Chavez was not over rated.

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Be a drag if we all agreed all the time. Although he had some tremendous outings I think its a classic case of an agreed upon assumption by many that he's the best Mexican fighter that ever lived and I just dont see it that way. Not even close. Again he has been in some great fights but this involves 135 and him being pitted against perhaps the greatest lightweight that ever lived.

Lets see other then;

Duran being a much better boxer
A much better puncher generally like selection
A dominant lightweight
With much better footwork
A much better jab
Much more power
Noticeably faster
Superior defense
Superior head movement
Only beaten once in about 65 fights at 135 and in a fight he was finishing strong in.

oh and Duran never needed a loss changed to a win or an obvious drubbing called a draw to preserve an already false 0.

Other then those facts that are self evident imo to anyone who has watched the two, yeah its an even matchup.

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That is cold to bring up what happened after near the end of his career. Duran quit and that is the worst thing a fighter could ever do.

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But I never said a thing about that and don't even begrudge him for it. I merely touched on the Miguel Ruiz fight and the stacked cards in the Whitaker fight. I will say that 135 would be his best shot because thats when Chavez was actually his best but that best would simply not be best enough, And for the record I could not stand Duran in his heyday but he was what he was, a freakin machine who had the unfortunate luck of boxing in the Ali era and was largely overshadowed. Personally I believe there are only a handful of pugilists that could beat him or be in it til the end. Just to be clear I think he beats Floyd and Oscar at that weight.

Awesome matchup between two all time greats.

I think Chavez was as tough as a piece of iron. Cold, methodical and ruthless, he applied constant pressure and was one of the best body punchers I've seen. Good chin (susceptible to cuts later on in his career, but let's assume that's not a factor here). Solid technique, but he could be frustrated by slick boxers and Duran would have a definite edge in speed here.

Duran, at lightweight was supreme ... a real 'monstor for his weight' and probably the preeminent fighter of the 1970's. Loved fighting, and was entertainingly savage but had vastly underestimated boxing skills. A concussive puncher with a good chin.

Oddly enough, I think that if Hands of Stone came out boxing, controlling distance and pace as we know he can, I suspect he out points Chavez 8 times out of ten. He had the slicker skills and that plays to Julio's relative lack of speed.

There's no way that would happen, though. These two proud warriors would be absolutely hyped by the Mexico/Panama confrontation and would throw all caution to the wind and engage in a wild slugfest.

It would be something of a pick 'em fight, I have to say.

If I had to get off the fence, I would favour Duran simply because his best weight was lightweight while Chavez was better at higher poundages. Duran also had the edge in speed, and against Chavez, speed kills.'

Maybe speed is the factor in the fight to give the edge to Duran but it would be close and very entertaining. Both were bad losers.